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Is Syrio Forel really dead?


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I like how the FM are supposed to have such a knowledge of the future: they send a guy who they know will be hired by Ned because they know Arya was given a sword by Jon, then they know they will find Arya again alive and all in the slums after days in the middle of a coup, then alive and well in a castle after months in the middle of a civil war and of tortured prisoners of war then alive again in Braavos after being abandoned in a castle where a lot of people wanted her dead and raped first. Also for some reason they are fixated on Arya without knowing about her at all, or having any prophecy shown to us to point them to her.

And yet apparently, the same people would consider that Arya will not complete her FM training, will "go back to her Stark identity" (yeah, the idea of a static "stark identity" is ridiculous, but that's a common utterance). Critical failure at future-gazing there, guys.

Also you'd think that people having such a wide knowledge of the different futures could take less... convoluted paths to recruit a girl. Also, using such convoluted plans, you'd think they would have some end game plan for her, that she has to be the most important person in all Westeros, forget Bran, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Ned, Bob, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin and all, those don't deserve FM help, they can get stabbed for all they care. Because of course nobody could replace a twelve year old who just learned the organisation's basic skills, and certainly not people with mastery in those skills who also know the future apparently down to the millisecond (who also are supermen who cannot be shackled except voluntarily, and who cannot lose a sword fight even barehanded against a tank).

This is supposed to make more sense than a aging, exiled weaponmaster being just a weaponmaster and failing to win in a (dixit GRRM) pretty hopeless situation? Yeah, no.

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This is supposed to make more sense than a aging, exiled weaponmaster being just a weaponmaster and failing to win in a (dixit GRRM) pretty hopeless situation? Yeah, no.

I agree. (I was unaware of the mystical future seeing faceless men theory - wow... that's all I can say.... wow).. When you look at it in it's entirety it makes Occam wanna reach for his strop...

Anyways - the quoted part. When I was younger I might have wished he escaped or was even more than he appeared - but nowadays I really appreciate a well written noble death. Even moreso in this series where we see people struggle with their standpoints on things like honor, sacrifice, duty, principles (even Ned.. he struggled with all four at once) - But Syrio, as he is written really stands apart in this. He stands his ground against overwhelming odds to do 'the right thing' - he doesn't back down, stands by his honor and his principles and sacrifices himself so his pupil can escape. Actually I'm wracking my brain for another example of this steadfastness in the several thousand pages I've read (I'm sure they exist, but they certainly aren't the norm).

In that, he is one of the coolest characters in the entire series... Why would people rob him of that to make him something lesser?

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I'm gonna need a textual citation for faceless men predicting the future.

(was that actually put out there by someone? seriously?)

Well, yes, in that post above yours, considering, you know, that it proposes Syrio is a FM, same as Jaqen, but they don't actually go recruiting Arya until after a lot of dramatic partings where she could have died, then they leave her to never see them if she was to reach her family. :
If the Faceless Man was sent to train and recruit Arya, then it all makes plenty of sense.

... remember that the "link" to the greenseers Bran has that this guy is talking about is actually Jojen seeing the future (his green dreams) and deciding to go find Bran. Also has Bloodraven who can seen the past and the distant for sure and can probably dream green too while he's at it. (except the guys, when recruiting Bran, don't let him wander a few months at a time in the middle of war before knowing coincidentally that he'll be fine and in place x at time y to continue their chat, that's beyond green dreams.

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Why did Bloodraven recruit Bran? Why did Jaqen recruit Arya? Perhaps Arya has some special link to the Faceless Men, like Bran does to the greenseers.

Jaquen did not recruit Arya, he left her to find her own way in the world, but gave her an potential option. Which wasn't even a recruiting option, just got her close enough that she was in a position to recruit herself.

Listen, everyone understands this is extremely unlikely, but most of the theories on here are nearly as far fetched with less evidence than this one.

Rubbish. This 'theory' has no supporting evidence at all, reams and reams of solid counter-evidence, has gaping holes in it several light-years wide and is simply illogical at every single proposed turn.

There are a very very few theories nearly as ridiculous as this one but none anywhere near as stupid with such wide support.

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I haven't read all the posts of Syrio is he/isnt theory, but I did have one theory (which may have been covered already)

Is Syrio, Trant? The kingsguardsmen returns and we never see syrio again, could syrio have killed trant and like a faceless man changed his appearence to Trants and is living as Trant (for what purpose I dont know)?

Has this been discussed, any answers?

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When GRRM says that things looked pretty grim for Syrio, that is the stance I am taking. And I asked this 19 pages ago and 19 posts ago....What purpose does he serve by being alive and hiding out somewhere?

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I just thought it was coincidental that syrio was in neds service prior to syrio becoming arya's 'dance' master. I think ned was working with syrio for another purpose. and maybe syrio, under the guise of trant is trying to complete that in kings landing.

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I like the Syrio=Trant plant theory. I don't think it's true, but it's a lot sexier than Syrio=Jaqen. At a pivotal moment, the lone KG knight goes apeshit and screws everything up for the powerful bad guys after having informed on their doings through some clandestine means since Ned's imprisonment....

Though like I said, and as much as I hate it, I know Syrio's just gone, and Trant is just a dead-eyed jerk in white. The text and Martin's comments just indicate too strongly that he's a goner, and the theories fail to provide any credible evidence to the contrary.

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I just thought it was coincidental that syrio was in neds service prior to syrio becoming arya's 'dance' master. I think ned was working with syrio for another purpose. and maybe syrio, under the guise of trant is trying to complete that in kings landing.

I don't believe he was in Ned's service until he was hired to train Arya. Ned mentions how he will find someone to teach arya to use needle and when he sees how Arya is bruised and standing on one foot etc, he thinks he needs to look for someone else until Arya tells him she likes Syrio.
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I haven't read all the posts of Syrio is he/isnt theory, but I did have one theory (which may have been covered already)

Is Syrio, Trant? The kingsguardsmen returns and we never see syrio again, could syrio have killed trant and like a faceless man changed his appearence to Trants and is living as Trant (for what purpose I dont know)?

Has this been discussed, any answers?

Impossible, for multiple reasons.

FM can change their faces, thats all. they are still the same shape, sex and general size, aside from a little bit of posture adjustment etc. They are still the same person underneath.

We see this with Arya, and we don't see anything different from Jaquen or anyone else.

Syrio is small and old and bald. Trant is a big man with a specific skillset, and interacts over a long period of time with people who know him well. Syrio cannot possibly have become Trant and not be found out.

Not to mention there is simply no real connection between Syrio and the FM in the first place!

I just thought it was coincidental that syrio was in neds service prior to syrio becoming arya's 'dance' master.

He wasn't. Ned went out and found Syrio in KL, after he found Arya with Needle.

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No, if the faceless men were sent to recruit Arya it makes even LESS sense - in fact adding that makes these actions border on ludicrous.

This is the problem with what the Syrio is alive theory has become - all these complications and additions, that when you look at them make no sense whatsoever. If it's so straightfoward, why couldn't you answer the question I posed?

If that is the intention why go through all the hoops and loops and ulitmately the guesswork of 'geez I hope some old friend happens apon her while watching her Dad get beheaded, and try and drag her here to go north! If not - I'm kinda stuck in this cell on wheels....'

If you had the ability to disguise yourself thus you could go through the city with impunity and search - locking yourself in the black cells is downright stupid. It makes zero sense.

The more folks add to adjust timelines and make him all these things, the sillier it all becomes. If it were 'Syrio knocked out his would be captors, and escaped to safety'... that I could think 'yeah.. possible'.

'Syrio is a faceless man and takes the identity of one of the guards he knocks out and escapes the city to freedom' - okay, a little redundant, but hmmm who knows?

'Syrio is Jaquen, he escapes his captors - who never mention it to anyone, ever. He then runs to a prison and sneaks past the guards, kills a captive - gets that captive out, assumes his identity then meets by happenstance with Arya' - ok, now we're were getting into 'hmmm probably not' (side note - the text cited for them possibly being the same is a young girls recollection of a regional/cultural accent... 'wow he sounds like Syrio. maybe they're from the same sort of place' not 'this is the same guy' but I digress here).

And of course that this is his plan all along... well ... no.. there are a million and one other ways to go about that that would make far more sense.

Or maybe she doesn't. Can you cite anything in the text that shows she does? I didn't see anything that did. I saw a somewhat religious assassin that hung around to pay a debt, befriend (as close to that as he could come - perhaps have some admiration for) a cunning young girl hell bent on revenge, with traits that would make her suitable for training.. Or maybe to even give her an alternative to running around the countryside until she got killed. But I do know the second he paid his debts, he moved on. Don't you think that if he went to all the trouble of perpetrating the most ill thought out way meet and recruit her, he'd... I dunno.. actually recruit her - accompany her back to Braavos? or at least put her on a ship bound for there?

From start to end, when you step back and see the twists and turns you start to see how silly it's becoming.

Well you're completely dismissing the actual text which says that Jaqen reminds Arya of Syrio (despite Jaqen supposedly being Lorathi and Syrio supposedly being Braavosi). Then there's the textual evidence that Rorge and Biter (two guys that are pretty tough and rotten) seem to be genuinely afraid of Jaqen. This implies that they saw him do something pretty terrifying for it to affect them. Could it have been taking the place of the third man in their cage/cell? Then there's the whole, why on earth is someone supposedly teaching her how to sword fight, also teaching her to stealth around in the shadows?

Also you seem to think it would be insane for a Faceless Man to lock himself in the Black Cells, yet you seem to believe that Jaqen (a Faceless Man by your theory) was locked up in them to begin with.

Now then, as for the recruitment of Arya, we actually see Jaqen attempt to convince Arya to come with him. Only when she turns him down does he give her the coin and tell her to say the words to a Braavosi.

So why not put out a decent one? There are some WAY the hell out there theories on the board, yes.. They make me laugh daily - this is like the funny papers for me. But it also has some very good ones, ones that are simple in context and broad in implications, well researches, and when you go back and read the text - start to finish - you see how they fit near perfectly into everything every character they affect with every nuance, word, and action.

There should be more theories like THOSE.

First of all, I didn't post this theory, and I don't necessarily believe it, I just don't find it as ridiculous or as impossible as many of you seem to think. The fact of the matter is that there is zero text stating he's dead. Arya doesn't see it, and Trant doesn't say he killed him when reporting to Cersei later. He obviously doesn't say he escaped either, but why is his lack of saying that he escaped evidence, but lack of him saying he's dead isn't? If Syrio escaped, I doubt Trant would report that Syrio escaped to Cersei as it would make him seem incompetent that he lost to a dancing master while he was in full plate armor.

So here's my "theory" on this for you:

Let's say Syrio is in fact a Faceless Man, who is in King's Landing on his way to the Iron Islands to kill Balon Greyjoy, and to gather intelligence on this new Hand of the King. He's also either told to recruit an additional candidate, or Faceless Men are always on the lookout for talented candidates (so nothing specific about Arya). While learning what he can about Ned Stark, he hears about him looking for someone to train his 10 year old daughter to sword fight, and it intrigues him, plus he'd have the opportunity to gain access to the new Hand of the King, and potentially gain some valuable information. During one of these "visits" he skulks about and overhears Yoren asking Ned for more men for the wall, and knows that Ned has granted him men from the prisons, including three from the black cells. During this time, Arya shows promise with the sword and stealth tactics he's taught her. Perhaps he even follows her at times, and sees her spy on Illyrio and Varys.

So the king dies, and the scene with Trant occurs and he insures that Arya escapes. Once she's gone, he picks up one of the swords from the guards and knocks Trant out with a very hard blow to the helm with a sword this time instead of a wooden stick. Trant wakes up, realizes that Syrio escaped and decides not to tell Cersei that he was bested by a "dancing master" (only delayed long enough that Arya escaped), and decides to let her believe that Syrio was dispatched without actually saying so. Syrio follows Arya over the next few days, making sure he isn't seen and to insure that she isn't caught by the Lannisters, and also looking for a way out of the city, because the city is in lockdown (no one is allowed to leave, so taking someone's face wouldn't really help him escape). He sees Arya at Ned's beheading, and sees Yoren take her. Remembering that Yoren was leaving for the wall which is the direction he needs to go to get to the Iron Islands anyways, he finds the cart with the men from the black cells, selects the one closest to his build, releases him from the cart, and changes to his face (surely a Facelss Man can pick a lock). Rorge and Biter witness this, and realize he is a Faceless Man (or at least someone using magic), thus the reason they are so scared of him. Yoren arrives back at the cart, and they leave King's Landing. He is now Jaqen H'ghar until he helps Arya escape from Harenhall at which point he takes the face of the Alchemist, goes and kills Balon Greyjoy and then heads for Old Town where he later becomes Pate.

If he's a Faceless Man in King's Landing who is also assigned to learn more information about the new Hand of the King in Westeros, and who might be on the lookout for a new candidate recruit, all of this makes sense as to what a Faceless Man would do given those circumstances.

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Well you're completely dismissing the actual text which says that Jaqen reminds Arya of Syrio (despite Jaqen supposedly being Lorathi and Syrio supposedly being Braavosi). Then there's the textual evidence that Rorge and Biter (two guys that are pretty tough and rotten) seem to be genuinely afraid of Jaqen. This implies that they saw him do something pretty terrifying for it to affect them. Could it have been taking the place of the third man in their cage/cell? Then there's the whole, why on earth is someone supposedly teaching her how to sword fight, also teaching her to stealth around in the shadows?

Also you seem to think it would be insane for a Faceless Man to lock himself in the Black Cells, yet you seem to believe that Jaqen (a Faceless Man by your theory) was locked up in them to begin with.

Now then, as for the recruitment of Arya, we actually see Jaqen attempt to convince Arya to come with him. Only when she turns him down does he give her the coin and tell her to say the words to a Braavosi.

First of all, I didn't post this theory, and I don't necessarily believe it, I just don't find it as ridiculous or as impossible as many of you seem to think. The fact of the matter is that there is zero text stating he's dead. Arya doesn't see it, and Trant doesn't say he killed him when reporting to Cersei later. He obviously doesn't say he escaped either, but why is his lack of saying that he escaped evidence, but lack of him saying he's dead isn't? If Syrio escaped, I doubt Trant would report that Syrio escaped to Cersei as it would make him seem incompetent that he lost to a dancing master while he was in full plate armor.

So here's my "theory" on this for you:

Let's say Syrio is in fact a Faceless Man, who is in King's Landing on his way to the Iron Islands to kill Balon Greyjoy, and to gather intelligence on this new Hand of the King. He's also either told to recruit an additional candidate, or Faceless Men are always on the lookout for talented candidates (so nothing specific about Arya). While learning what he can about Ned Stark, he hears about him looking for someone to train his 10 year old daughter to sword fight, and it intrigues him, plus he'd have the opportunity to gain access to the new Hand of the King, and potentially gain some valuable information. During one of these "visits" he skulks about and overhears Yoren asking Ned for more men for the wall, and knows that Ned has granted him men from the prisons, including three from the black cells. During this time, Arya shows promise with the sword and stealth tactics he's taught her. Perhaps he even follows her at times, and sees her spy on Illyrio and Varys.

So the king dies, and the scene with Trant occurs and he insures that Arya escapes. Once she's gone, he picks up one of the swords from the guards and knocks Trant out with a very hard blow to the helm with a sword this time instead of a wooden stick. Trant wakes up, realizes that Syrio escaped and decides not to tell Cersei that he was bested by a "dancing master" (only delayed long enough that Arya escaped), and decides to let her believe that Syrio was dispatched without actually saying so. Syrio follows Arya over the next few days, making sure he isn't seen and to insure that she isn't caught by the Lannisters, and also looking for a way out of the city, because the city is in lockdown (no one is allowed to leave, so taking someone's face wouldn't really help him escape). He sees Arya at Ned's beheading, and sees Yoren take her. Remembering that Yoren was leaving for the wall which is the direction he needs to go to get to the Iron Islands anyways, he finds the cart with the men from the black cells, selects the one closest to his build, releases him from the cart, and changes to his face (surely a Facelss Man can pick a lock). Rorge and Biter witness this, and realize he is a Faceless Man (or at least someone using magic), thus the reason they are so scared of him. Yoren arrives back at the cart, and they leave King's Landing. He is now Jaqen H'ghar until he helps Arya escape from Harenhall at which point he takes the face of the Alchemist, goes and kills Balon Greyjoy and then heads for Old Town where he later becomes Pate.

If he's a Faceless Man in King's Landing who is also assigned to learn more information about the new Hand of the King in Westeros, and who might be on the lookout for a new candidate recruit, all of this makes sense as to what a Faceless Man would do given those circumstances.

Occam's razor called. He said your voicemail box is full, but he really wants to talk to you.

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You've just invalidated every theory on this board by the same measure, congrats.

I have not, either. R+L=J is razor-compliant, along with a fair few others. It at least answers more questions than it raises.

Your theory on Syrio is admirably crafted, but it's like, 98% from your own creativity, and counter to what the author of the series indicated as to SF's fate. I mean, postulate all you want. I have fun speculating about Rickon's eventual fate. But don't get all butthurt when people call it what it is: fanfiction.

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Impossible, for multiple reasons.

FM can change their faces, thats all. they are still the same shape, sex and general size, aside from a little bit of posture adjustment etc. They are still the same person underneath.

We see this with Arya, and we don't see anything different from Jaquen or anyone else.

This part interests me. Clearly they are using old faces to change faces, but we've also seen full glamours by Mance via Melisandre. I've always thought of the Faceless Men's abilities as some sort of mix between blood magic and a glamour.

We haven't actually seen Arya take a new face though yet have we? A new identity, yes, but only through normal disguise. Is there information that implies that they can't change other physical characteristics when they change faces?

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I have not, either. R+L=J is razor-compliant, along with a fair few others. It at least answers more questions than it raises.

Your theory on Syrio is admirably crafted, but it's like, 98% from your own creativity, and counter to what the author of the series indicated as to SF's fate. I mean, postulate all you want. I have fun speculating about Rickon's eventual fate. But don't get all butthurt when people call it what it is: fanfiction.

I'm certainly not "butthurt" about anything. Someone posted a theory which I happen to enjoy speculating about, even if it's unlikely, much like the other 98% of threads on this board.

Several people in this thread have been outright rude to the OP for speculating, so it would seem the "butthurt" isn't on the side of the people that enjoy the speculation as much as the people that wish to shout him down for doing nothing different than 98% of the posts on this board.

You can call any theory on here "fan fiction". Doing so is simply an attempt by you to degrade something that you personally don't ascribe to. Holding every theory on here to the level of R+L=J isn't really fair, and it doesn't excuse you being rude to someone just because you disagree with something they're speculating about.

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This part interests me. Clearly they are using old faces to change faces, but we've also seen full glamours by Mance via Melisandre. I've always thought of the Faceless Men's abilities as some sort of mix between blood magic and a glamour.

We haven't actually seen Arya take a new face though yet have we? A new identity, yes, but only through normal disguise. Is there information that implies that they can't change other physical characteristics when they change faces?

They do indeed use a mix of mummer tricks, glamours and the face switching. Yes we do actually see Arya take a new face at one point.

“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use

glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall

learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before

sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with.

Keep your eyes closed.” She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. “Stay still. This will feel queer. You

may be dizzy, but you must not move.”

Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old. The leather

scraped across her brow, dry and stiff, but as her blood soaked into it, it softened and turned supple.

Her cheeks grew warm, flushed.

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I'm certainly not "butthurt" about anything. Someone posted a theory which I happen to enjoy speculating about, even if it's unlikely, much like the other 98% of threads on this board.

It's not that it's unlikely; it's that it requires an enormous amount of things to have taken place that we have no indication actually took place. A theory that relies so heavily on speculative events must always be regarded as weak.

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