Jump to content

Is it acknowledged that House Lannister Destroyed House Stark?


PureGold

Recommended Posts

it is curious. makes me wonder if grrm is hinting at future jon/tyrion interactions.

Yeah, I suspect so, too. That's probably why he had them meet in AGoT in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the Tyrion - Jon relationship discussed above, I have always found it a bit odd, but Jon does not seem to blame Tyrion for the RW or the marriage to Sansa. He appears to be more bothered by the fact that Tyrion kinslaid Tywin.

Not a word of Sansa anywhere, although he knows well that Sansa is now "Lady Lannister".

I don't want to go off topic, but yeah, I agree. One thing I did find odd in the series is the lack of all the Stark siblings being concerned or worried about each other. Jon and Arya often think of each other and miss each other but that's about it. I think we never get Jon thinking about where Sansa is and whether she was alive or dead. Did he know she was missing from KL? And while he does think of Robb quite a few times, he does not reminisce about Rickon and Bran as much.

Same with Sansa. We hardly see her thinking of Jon or Arya. Infact in AFfC, upon hearing news of Jon becoming LC she says that she has not thought of Jon in a long while. Which is weird since people often tend to think back on fond memories with their siblings. Especially during tough times. And he is her only surviving brother. I would think all that would merit some thinking about Jon.

Even Bran and Arya don't spend a lot of time grieving or missing their siblings. But they are much younger and they are learning to survive by themselves in tough surroundings. So I can understand the both of them being being more focused on just staying alive.

It maybe just their northern heritage and they are all tough kids and not that emotional about family and all that. But still.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the 15,000 at Riverrun? Green Fork and Harrenhal? Two years of skirmishes?

Tywin's army is 20,000 in GoT and is apparently still 20,000 in SoS (figure given in a Tyrion chapter). Losses likely to be negligible on the Green Fork although they lost more in skirmishes and at the Fords.

14,000 were at Riverrun and 4,000 escaped with Ser Forely from one camp. There were a few survivors from the others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the eyes of most House Stark is destroyed and yet most of the North still is loyal to a non-existant house. Such loyalty would mean that even if House Stark was really destroyed, its name would endure on and on. But anyways, since it isn't wait until a Stark returns to Winterfell and you'll see how long it will take for the North to rise again. House Lannister only defeated House Stark because of the RW, by annhilating most of its leadership, including the last known as alive and non-hostage Stark. And Robb wasn't even using the full strength of the North.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the eyes of most House Stark is destroyed and yet most of the North still is loyal to a non-existant house. Such loyalty would mean that even if House Stark was really destroyed, its name would endure on and on. But anyways, since it isn't wait until a Stark returns to Winterfell and you'll see how long it will take for the North to rise again. House Lannister only defeated House Stark because of the RW, by annhilating most of its leadership, including the last known as alive and non-hostage Stark. And Robb wasn't even using the full strength of the North.

Such loyalty? There is absolutely no proof they are more loyal than any other bannermen - be there Tully, Tyrell, Lannister, Martell or Baratheon - everywhere there are some houses who are unloyal, who disagree with the path their lord chooses but still follow and houses who obey with no doubt - again there is absolutely NO PROOF that Starks have some special kind of loyalty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They never beat the Starks on the battlefield, yep Robb Stark still remained undefeated on the battlefield and the Lannisters seem really reluctant to be associated with deceit that was done regarding House Stark at the RW

I don't see how that's relevant. Stannis never beat Renly in battle either, but it's pretty clear who won that little spat.

The fact of the matter is, Ned was executed, Robb and Catlyn assassinated. much of the northern nobility was either killed or taken hostage. the host that Robb led south was decimated, and Winterfell and Riverrun are now in the hands of those nominally loyal to the Lannisters.

Yes a Stark resurgence before the end of the series is possible, maybe even likely, but the first war was a clear Lannister victory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Such loyalty? There is absolutely no proof they are more loyal than any other bannermen - be there Tully, Tyrell, Lannister, Martell or Baratheon - everywhere there are some houses who are unloyal, who disagree with the path their lord chooses but still follow and houses who obey with no doubt - again there is absolutely NO PROOF that Starks have some special kind of loyalty.

Taken from Apple Martini's sig:

"I know about the promise! ... A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril for our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. STARK men!" — Wylla Manderly

I could get you a hundred more of this sort. You get me one from a Lannister bannerman and you'll see if it's not proof enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I don't acknowledge that (question of TO), and that's not because I support House Lannister (or rather Tyrion, to be specific).

I think that there's grey between black and white, and to think House Lannister destroyed House Stark is thinking in black and white.

Of course, there are certain events that link the Houses, but I guess that Jaime would have pushed anybody from the window who was in danger spotting him and Cersei. Nobody wants to be caught when having sex - especially not these two.

Sansa was given Joffrey's hand in marriage, she knew that Joffrey was both a liar and a coward, but did she have a chance to say that aloud? One does not openly defy the King's son without backup.

Cersei couldn't prevent Joffrey from having Eddard executed,. because she didn't know what her son was up to. She wanted Eddard to take the black, but Joffrey spoiled it.

Joffrey is a spoiled brat. There's no denying that. And we don't get to know what would have happened to Margaery, because he dies before getting a chance to display his malice.

Jaime? Oh, yes, he gets captured by Robb, and Catelyn freed him because she hoped to rescue Arya and Sansa. Of course, he's not in high spirits about that - being captive.

See what I mean?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taken from Apple Martini's sig:

I could get you a hundred more of this sort. You get me one from a Lannister bannerman and you'll see if it's not proof enough.

When the Lannisters were losing the war their defeat seamed obvious - they were going to be destroyed and the lords who betrayed them would be rewarded perhaps even take their place - no one did so, all remained loyal and kept their faith in Tywin. The Starks are no the verge of destruction - unlike any other great house so obviously they have most proof of loyalty - they need it the most, and yet many have turned againts them. On the other hand they were betrayed - obviously by not very loyal bannerman, no one betrayed the Lannisters. All the Lannister bannerman we see seem to be pretty loyal and respectful of the Lannisters even after Tywin's death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tywin's army is 20,000 in GoT and is apparently still 20,000 in SoS (figure given in a Tyrion chapter). Losses likely to be negligible on the Green Fork although they lost more in skirmishes and at the Fords.

14,000 were at Riverrun and 4,000 escaped with Ser Forely from one camp. There were a few survivors from the others.

Tyrion's quote in aSoS shouldn't be taken literally, I think. His basically trying to intimidate the Red Viper. He says that there are 5000 Gold Cloaks, Tywin has 20 000 and the Roses number 50 000-70 000. He also mentions that there are 500 000 people in the city (100 000 of which would be the soldiers, I guess....so maybe 400 000 "peacetime" population).

In any case, there's no way there's still 20 000 men left in Tywin's host after the battles at the Green Fork, Red Fork and the Blackwater. As well as countless skirmishes in the Riverlands. I'd say Tywin's host numbers something like 15 000 soldiers after Blackwater, possibly even slightly less.

The loss of Ser Amory's force and the Brave Companions alone would mean the loss of 600 soldiers. And Tyrion also mentions in aGoT that during the forced march to try and reach Riverrun before Robb, they lost many wounded as well as suffered from desertion.

Although I'd say the Lannisters still have something like 25 000 men left (with their total military strength, scraping the barrel clean, something like 55 000, and the losses so far about 30 000 total).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tywin's army is 20,000 in GoT and is apparently still 20,000 in SoS (figure given in a Tyrion chapter). Losses likely to be negligible on the Green Fork although they lost more in skirmishes and at the Fords.

14,000 were at Riverrun and 4,000 escaped with Ser Forely from one camp. There were a few survivors from the others.

20000 is a simplification from George. Supposedly he had 20000 at the BW. Hes bound to have lost men at the GF-his plan was designed to lose men but to win overall, and we know there were 150 casualties among the clansmen, admittedly the ill trained part, but still casualties. He took many castles, some of which wre taken by storm, he had many nights of forced marching, months of skirmishing with Freys, Roose and the Brotherhood, many of the castles were retaken and the garrison put to the sword, Battle of the Fords etc. 20000 is just left deliberately vague but if you look at it it is obviously wrong by a margin

Such loyalty? There is absolutely no proof they are more loyal than any other bannermen - be there Tully, Tyrell, Lannister, Martell or Baratheon - everywhere there are some houses who are unloyal, who disagree with the path their lord chooses but still follow and houses who obey with no doubt - again there is absolutely NO PROOF that Starks have some special kind of loyalty.

Did you read Dance?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought the question was in regard to whether the realm acknowledged that the Lannisters destroyed the Starks. And while that is true, to an extent, I wonder just how aware most of the houses are about how complicit the Lannisters were in the Red Wedding. Obviously Catelyn knows, but how far does that knowledge extend?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20000 is a simplification from George. Supposedly he had 20000 at the BW. Hes bound to have lost men at the GF-his plan was designed to lose men but to win overall, and we know there were 150 casualties among the clansmen, admittedly the ill trained part, but still casualties. He took many castles, some of which wre taken by storm, he had many nights of forced marching, months of skirmishing with Freys, Roose and the Brotherhood, many of the castles were retaken and the garrison put to the sword, Battle of the Fords etc. 20000 is just left deliberately vague but if you look at it it is obviously wrong by a margin

Did you read Dance?

Yes i read it. Some houses choose to remain loyal to Stark - nothing to suggest that the same would not happen to Lannister, Tyrell, Tully or the rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is where I had to stop reading. Also, if the position that House Lannister is in now constitutes "winning," maybe winning isn't the best thing. Joffrey's dead, Tommen's a puppet, Myrcella's mutilated, Cersei's in disgrace, Tyrion's in exile, Jaime's missing, Tywin and Kevan are dead, the troops are bled, etc. WINNING!

But the thread is about Lannister defeating Stark, not Lannister being defeated by the Tyrells, Martells, Varys, and their own family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes i read it. Some houses choose to remain loyal to Stark - nothing to suggest that the same would not happen to Lannister, Tyrell, Tully or the rest.

Only the old old house would command a higher loyalty-Lannister, Stark, Arryn and Martell. Tully and Tyrell are relative upstarts in comparison and dont imo have as high a contol over their bannermen. What is special is that men continue to die for a House that is for all intents completely wiped out and at odds with the greatest power in the realm. This does completely show a higher loyalty then anyother show of loyalty to a House.

Each great house has its rival. Tywin destroyed his recently, leaving Lannister as the undisputed lord. Not a bad move at all, but a great part of the reason why he didnt suffer from insubordination, although it should be noted that House Westerling did desert him. Spicer didnt, Westerling did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...