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R+L=J v.46


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#1 Black Crow

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:14 AM

Well somebody had to...

Just to recap a little from the end of the last one. A Song of Ice and Fire was originally conceived and mapped out as a trilogy. It hasn't worked out that way of course but that early optimism saw the necessary clues as to Jon Snow's parentage planted in the first volume; A Game of Thrones.

The requirement for consistency means that subsequent volumes will contain supporting evidence and no doubt a few red herrings to throw readers off, but its what's in AGoT that's important.

On the basis of that evidence, picked over so often as to not require rehearsing again in this post, there seems little doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, first because the clues point to that fact and secondly because an alternative explanation makes the "mystery" pointless.

The real question therefore, and the answer to those who object that R+L=J is too obvious (but perhaps only in retrospect after nearly 20 years of arguing over it) is not whether Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but what that is actually going to mean in terms of taking the plot forward.

As such he is the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne, but what is the real significance of his being a son of Winterfell. Which is going to be more important in the end. And to those who suggest that as a Targaryen and a Stark he is the union of Ice and Fire, well yes indeed, but what will that actually mean?

#2 MtnLion

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:43 AM

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)


The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)


"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)


R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)


Edited by MtnLion, 07 April 2013 - 09:31 AM.


#3 MtnLion

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:46 AM

This is worth bringing to this thread:

I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came accorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.
I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education /dunce.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunce:' /> The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.
The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.
I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.
[...]
She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."
[...]
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.


The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.
Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).
He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone hammer upon his chest (Robert's).
Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).
This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.
It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil...

I added that wolves will bare their teeth as a greeting, which is only common knowledge with wolf trainers. And, I invited J Stargaryen to incorporate this into the Rosetta thread.

#4 Dragonfish

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:47 AM

Well somebody had to...

Just to recap a little from the end of the last one. A Song of Ice and Fire was originally conceived and mapped out as a trilogy. It hasn't worked out that way of course but that early optimism saw the necessary clues as to Jon Snow's parentage planted in the first volume; A Game of Thrones.


The series was planned as a trilogy very early on in the writing process, though, and at that point, he intended the first volume to end with the Red Wedding. He obviously realized that wasn't going to work, so he expanded the series beyond the trilogy to five or six books, IIRC. In other words, A Game of Thrones is not the first book of a trilogy, but of a much larger series. A better explanation for why there are so many clues for R+L=J in the first book is that that is the only book with Ned as a POV.

Edited by Dragonfish, 07 April 2013 - 08:48 AM.


#5 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

The series was planned as a trilogy very early on in the writing process, though, and at that point, he intended the first volume to end with the Red Wedding. He obviously realized that wasn't going to work, so he expanded the series beyond the trilogy to five or six books, IIRC. In other words, A Game of Thrones is not the first book of a trilogy, but of a much larger series. A better explanation for why there are so many clues for R+L=J in the first book is that that is the only book with Ned as a POV.

That's a great point about Ned and the obvious factor in the book one hints, but don't you think it's also likely that GRRM had already planned on the clues being heavy in books 1 & 2, that is at the point when he was still planning a trilogy, and then had to stretch the "book 2" clues across additional books. I mean, he had already written part or most of AGoT before the plans changed, right? Or am I misinterpreting the information?

#6 Dragonfish

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:10 AM

That's a great point about Ned and the obvious factor in the book one hints, but don't you think it's also likely that GRRM had already planned on the clues being heavy in books 1 & 2, that is at the point when he was still planning a trilogy, and then had to stretch the "book 2" clues across additional books. I mean, he had already written part or most of AGoT before the plans changed, right? Or am I misinterpreting the information?


As I recall, he expanded the series beyond a trilogy long before A Game of Thrones was published, though I'm not certain of this.

ETA: There really aren't that many clues in the later books anyway. Even if you added them all up, they'd still pale in comparison to the number of clues in A Game of Thrones. So even if George did decide to expand the series beyond a trilogy toward the end of writing Game, that still doesn't explain on its own why there are so many clues in that book compared to all the others.

Edited by Dragonfish, 07 April 2013 - 09:14 AM.


#7 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:24 AM

As I recall, he expanded the series beyond a trilogy long before A Game of Thrones was published, though I'm not certain of this.

ETA: There really aren't that many clues in the later books anyway. Even if you added them all up, they'd still pale in comparison to the number of clues in A Game of Thrones. So even if George did decide to expand the series beyond a trilogy toward the end of writing Game, that still doesn't explain on its own why there are so many clues in that book compared to all the others.

I agree with this as far as book one goes. But I also think the dearth of clues in books 2-5 may be explained by the expansion of the trilogy and the elimination of the five year gap. We can't really get many more clues until he starts bringing potential witnesses into the story (we have a hint of that in TKotLT story) so IMO, we won't be getting much more until book 7.
Which means 5 or 10 more years of discussing why the KG were at the ToJ, the implications of Lyanna's obstetrical complications and Jon's possible Targ features.
*sigh*

#8 FittleLinger

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:25 AM

I agree with this as far as book one goes. But I also think the dearth of clues in books 2-5 may be explained by the expansion of the trilogy and the elimination of the five year gap. We can't really get many more clues until he starts bringing potential witnesses into the story (we have a hint of that in TKotLT story) so IMO, we won't be getting much more until book 7.
Which means 5 or 10 more years of discussing why the KG were at the ToJ, the implications of Lyanna's obstetrical complications and Jon's possible Targ features.
*sigh*


And the best part - 10 more years of explaining Targs are not fireproof...

#9 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:28 AM

I don't typically follow these threads but I do subscribe to R+L=J being true. That being said I just thought of something while re-reading.

Tyrion and Brown Ben Plumm's conversation.

"Not only do I know that the queen’s dragons took to you, but I know why.”
“My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood.”

Could the reveal of R+L=J be Jon meeting the dragons and they accept him being of as much a "Dragon" as anyone else?

#10 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

And you may potentially dream further. Which one will be his? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#11 Lord Flashheart

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:58 AM

And you may potentially dream further. Which one will be his? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


I don't think he will be sharing. All 3 sounds good.

#12 Ygrain

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:09 AM

And the best part - 10 more years of explaining Targs are not fireproof...

I'd take this over arguing that the KG "just follow orders" any time... /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#13 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:19 PM

And when you throw in the 'but Jon comes AFTER the others in the will'? /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#14 King Tyrion VIII

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

So does BC own the forum now? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#15 Mot

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

I'd just like to get onboard with the FrozenFire3 worship for that amazing post!!!!

/bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#16 King of Winters

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:10 PM

I'd just like to get onboard with the FrozenFire3 worship for that amazing post!!!!

/bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

Eh, might as well. Here's to you FrozenFire3 /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#17 King Tyrion VIII

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

That's a great point about Ned and the obvious factor in the book one hints, but don't you think it's also likely that GRRM had already planned on the clues being heavy in books 1 & 2, that is at the point when he was still planning a trilogy, and then had to stretch the "book 2" clues across additional books. I mean, he had already written part or most of AGoT before the plans changed, right? Or am I misinterpreting the information?


From what I've gathered Martin was almost done with ACOK before he stopped to seriously worldbuild, etc.

#18 King Tyrion VIII

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

FrozenFire just won the internet!

I need to figure out how to bow...

#19 FrozenFire3

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

FrozenFire just won the internet!

I need to figure out how to bow...


Hint: a Martell's user manual wouldn't be very helpful /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#20 FittleLinger

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

Try applying guerilla tactics if you can't figure out how to bow, King Tyrion. It has a history of working ;P