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[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow


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#1 teemo

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

So, what did you think of this scene? I know most people hated it - but what is the point of it? Is it to to really emphasize that connection Jon still has to the Starks and that he can be legitimized at one point? I personally didn't like the change because it didn't feel like something that Cat would ever think, but I'm curious what others think...

EDIT: here is the whole dialogue:



"I prayed for my son Bran to survive his fall. Many years before that, one of the boys came down with the pox. Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness. Listened to his ragged little breathes. His coughing, his whimpering.

[Which boy?]

Jon Snow. When my husband brought that baby home from the war I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring up at me. So I prayed to the gods, take him away. Make him die. He got the pox. And I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know. So I pray to all seven gods, let the boy live. Let him live, and I'lll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it. To make him one of us.

[And he lived?]

And he lived. And I couldn't keep my promise. And everything that's happened since then, all this horror that's come to my family, it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child."


EDIT: i'm quoting Francis Buck from another thread, because I think it's interesting:

Catelyn's story about Jon was...weird. It doesn't bother me, necessarily but it was definitely a strange addition. It's one of those instances (like Dany's vision of the Iron Throne destroyed and covered in snow) where I feel like the showrunners know important things about the end of the series, and thus are purposely foreshadowing events that the book readers could have no inkling to. I really don't think they just make up random shit like that for the sake of it (though that's how many book readers seem to feel).

Edited by thepinkviper, 07 April 2013 - 11:02 PM.


#2 Head of The Ned

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:47 PM

It was weird while she was telling it because I thought she was making it up to like scare Talisa or something about the power of the Gods?

But then she said the child lived and how she couldn't love him and that she now regrets not being able to keep her promise.... I'm cool with it. Mayhaps, like you said, this is relevant to the larger plot?

Spoiler

Edited by Head of The Ned, 07 April 2013 - 09:47 PM.


#3 Éadaoin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:47 PM

What the fuck have they done with Cat.



That's all I can manage right now. I'll try again later.

#4 kharma

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:47 PM

Didn't bother me, but I don't seem to get as upset about changes as some do.

#5 Dragonblood Stormborn

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:55 PM

I was confused by the scene as it was happening, but when it ended I'm thinking it was a necessary insertion to create empathy for Cat and to create a concrete idea of what one would likely think about the Cat/John Snow dynamic since it was never actually articulated in the books. We never really "know" about the 1st days or infancy of Jon Snow at Winterfell. He had the Dornish Wet nurse, how old exactly was he when Ned took him away and weaned him off of the wet nurse?
I think it makes sense in a way for the Show writers to create this scene and there's an emotional purpose for sure.

#6 ebevan91

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:57 PM

I didn't mind the scene. I think the scene was there to set up the legitimization of Jon and Robb naming him his heir. Also Jon Snow is one of the most beloved characters on the show, so maybe viewers will start liking Catelyn more, so the RW will be more devastating.

Edited by ebevan91, 07 April 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#7 scurvy

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:03 PM

They've got only 10 hours in the season and 500 pages to adapt. Yet they spent half this episode with scenes made up from nothing that undermine characters and/or don't add to the story. Very curious and upsetting.

#8 ebevan91

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:06 PM

They've got only 10 hours in the season and 500 pages to adapt. Yet they spent half this episode with scenes made up from nothing that undermine characters and/or don't add to the story. Very curious and upsetting.

And you don't post any examples other than the Catelyn scene everybody is talking about?

Edited by ebevan91, 07 April 2013 - 10:07 PM.


#9 Lord Godric

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:08 PM

I watched it and knew it would cause outrage, but I had no problem with it at all. I'm a Catelyn fan, I understand her hatred and treatment of Jon but don't condone it obviously. This scene just seemed to fill in one page of their long history together. Catelyn still hated Jon after this, but had a moment of weakness. We see her regretting what she said to Jon later in GoT, so I don't think it's unreasonable or out of character for her to have had previous moments of weakness with Jon.

#10 tito5601

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

i think it was a good scene i read the books and i still think it was a good scene

#11 Broken Fox

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:14 PM

I liked the scene. It was completely in line with Catelyn's character and her attitude towards Jon. Don't understand the hate at all.

Edited by Element_Engine, 07 April 2013 - 10:15 PM.


#12 StannisWins

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

I thought it was an excellent scene. TV shows play for different emotional payoffs than books, so this worked well for me.

#13 oakenhelm

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:24 PM

I agree with the OP that this may have been another scene that is revealing things to come that we just don't know about yet. I think us book readers are going to have to get used to the idea that it will be the show spoiling the books

I understand the show operates in its own universe, but I don't imagine the major storylines to be drastically changed.

#14 A Winters Summer

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:25 PM

Thought it was good. I had more of a problem with the Shae and Tyrion scene really.

#15 Israel

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:29 PM

What the fuck have they done with Cat.



That's all I can manage right now. I'll try again later.


haa, you havnt seen anything yet , they are forshadowing her character

#16 Southron_Ambitions

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:29 PM

When she said that everything that has happened wouldn't have happened, or everything would have been ok if she had only raised Jon as her own and let him take the Stark name, I was so freaking confused. How would that have changed what has happened to her family?

#17 Southron_Ambitions

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:29 PM

Oh, and the scene was awful. They are butchering her character.

#18 Bastard of Boston

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:30 PM

It's a different tone of Cat than the book ever utilizes, and in that sense, yes, it's a departure. I think the accusations of character assassination are a little drastic, though. She wished he was dead, he almost died, she felt guilt over it and promised she'd do better -- she never did...cue more guilt. It sounds like the ups and downs of a complicated relationship. Hate is a tricky thing. Some days, you feel entitled to it, and others, you wonder if you're the asshole.

I just read Ran's review of the episode, and he notes the idea that Cat would ever fathom a mothering role with Jon is the real problem. Forgive me if I'm missing the point. While I always eagerly anticipate and value Westeros' reviews above anyone else's, I still don't see a problem. I think Cat promising to be the mother Jon never had was akin to making any other number of grandiose promises when in a fit of guilt. It's just the lengths we go to in those moments. At the end of the day, Cat never followed through on any of her promises, and I think that's the point. We all go to different extremes in fits of hatred and guilt, but when those fits are over, we all tend to nestle back into our comfort zone. And, for Cat, she never had any want/need nor did she ever feel any obligation to mother Jon -- it was just words a guilt-stricken girl said to appease her Gods..."He has no mother, I will be his mother! Just don't take him!"

#19 WTFSalami

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:30 PM

Adding another dimension to the relationship between Jon and Catelyn before she gets the news that Robb is naming him heir.

#20 Howdyphillip

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

I think that this is one of the less intrusive changes that D&D has made on the character of Catelyn. Her letting Jaime go before finding out about Bran and Rikon and her telling Ned Stark not to go to King's Landing were far greater changes in my opinion.

This story, while completely made up, seemed to stay consistent with what we know of her from the books. She is compassionate, worships the seven, and doesn't love Jon Snow.

The only issue I took with the dialog is when she tried to blame everything that had happened on not being able to love Jon. That is an incredibly illogical leap of conclusion.