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old gods and new gods and red god


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31 replies to this topic

#1 Great Winter Knight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

I see a huge battle brewing in Jon, but not on the battle field but rather in the heavens. He is Neds son, whether you believe R+L=J or not. Ned raised him and taught him of his old gods, the gods the north follow. But, some believe that the Red god is here to champion jon as the AA. So if that is true then Jon will have to turn his back on the old gods and take up as AA. Almost like turning ones cloak. Any one feel the same way or have I got this all buggered up?

#2 Black Crow

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:44 AM

Jon belongs with Ghost to the Old Gods, R'hllor doesn't stand a chance.

#3 Great Winter Knight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:41 PM

I agree with you Black Crow, so is there a prophecy of the old gods stating a man or person will rise up and defend the relm of men against a super badass foe?

#4 Black Crow

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

Not so far as we know.

#5 Great Winter Knight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

So if Jon stays true to his Old gods, like you and I believe, then he is not AA nor the Prince that was Promised.

#6 Black Crow

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:54 PM

That's about the stretch of it, yes.

#7 armidil0

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:23 PM

The problem with that is did AA even believe in R'Hllor? Or did it come later? Does one need to believe in R'hllor to be AA? Maybe he is the champion without knowing it. So much and more we (at least I) don't know.

#8 Great Winter Knight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

Armidi10, good point. So its a,Rose by any other name kind of thing then. Jon may do what is the noble and honorable and Kingly thing to do and doesn't care what the priests call it or call him. I can get behind this.

#9 Tyryan Lannister

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

The problem with that is did AA even believe in R'Hllor? Or did it come later? Does one need to believe in R'hllor to be AA? Maybe he is the champion without knowing it. So much and more we (at least I) don't know.


Very possible that R'hllor developed from the AA story instead of the other way around

#10 Great Winter Knight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:48 PM

I suppose its the view of one group of people interperting what went on way back when. Its common in todays religion, to all have their own version of what happened in the past. Most have some account of a major flooding.

#11 I am Lord Cornholio!

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:08 PM

I think there all the same Gods. Just different B.S. that people do to worship them.

#12 Sandor the True Knight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

I think there all the same Gods. Just different B.S. that people do to worship them.


Exactly, ASOIAF is the fucking Iliad. Obviously there is a mystical element to this world, but it's not like gods are clashing with one another and effecting the outcome of the mortal world or something. Or at least if this was the case, it would be major lame sauce.

To get back to the original post, ultimately I don't think it matters if Jon picks the old gods or the fire god. Shits going to happen because shit happens.




#13 Black Crow

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:02 AM

The problem with that is did AA even believe in R'Hllor? Or did it come later? Does one need to believe in R'hllor to be AA? Maybe he is the champion without knowing it. So much and more we (at least I) don't know.


Oh he's going to be the champion, but while the Red lot are expecting their hero to usher in an endless summer it may turn out to be Jon's job to stop them. Alternatively it may be down to Jon to hold the Ice in check, perhaps as the Prince that was Promised, while Dany as Azor Ahai saves the world from Fire.

#14 Aquan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:24 AM

My understanding has always been that the Prince that was Promised and AA are derived from the same prophesy.

Old Nan tells Bran about the "Last Hero" when he is crippled in Winterfell.
"... as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost."

If the Last Hero is synonymous with the AA prophesy then it seems to me that we need something cataclysmic to happen (like the Wall falling) before any AA action.

#15 Black Crow

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

Mel thinks they are...

#16 bemused

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

Maester Aemon seemed to think so , too..

Jon , Dany and other characters will do what they feel they need to do in the face of a lethal threat ..if the Others are defeated ( if men survive ) believers in various religions will rationalize and adapt events to suit their beliefs.

Edited by bemused, 28 April 2013 - 12:12 PM.


#17 Tyrion_the_Oneironaut

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

I think there all the same Gods. Just different B.S. that people do to worship them.


Is there even an actual (Abrahamic) god in ASOIAF?

If power resides where men believe it resides, then are gods just those who people believe are gods?

Weather manipulation & direwolves are pretty strong evidence, mind you, but there may yet be a rational explanation. Has anyone made a skeptic's guide to ASOIAF?

Edited by billy_oneironaut, 28 April 2013 - 07:09 PM.


#18 jon stark I

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:50 PM

Is there even an actual (Abrahamic) god in ASOIAF?

If power resides where men believe it resides, then are gods just those who people believe are gods?

That is one way to put it.As far as we saw Old gods are actually the nature and the collective spirits of greenseers and wargs.
I think the other gods are make believe.If you look in all myths you can see Seven there.Father(Zeus,Odin) Mother (hera,gaia ....)Stanger(Hela,Hades...)Warrior(Thor,Aresor Hercules....)Maiden((athena or Arthemis)Smith(Hephaistos)Crone(well usually crone is father too).So this aspects are what people need in those times to survive so they believe in them.
Great other and Red God are the same thing on a bigger picture.While Seven focusses over the way of living Red God and Great Other represents the all known myth of apocalypse.Like soo many religion this one only focusses over the end of life and how to avoid it.As far as I saw Red God is for fire mages and Great other is for ice mages.
So I think we haven't seen a divine religion yet and I think we won't see one.If we see then that would be stupid.

#19 Black Crow

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:01 AM

We don't actually know that the Great Other is for Ice mages. Mel and presumably the rest of the Red lot think that he is the antagonist but that's only their POV. Part of Mel's story arc is that according to GRRM she's working to her own agenda - the Red Temple believes the enemy is the remnants of old Valyria, so I'd be very very wary of imposing that particular belief system on the whole story.

#20 bemused

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

Absolutely.. people , resist being swept into a cult ! Don't let yourselves be converted ! /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />