[BOOK SPOILERS] [Major!] How will Season 3 end? Finale speculation

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

Okay, so we all know that Season 3 will include RW, so pretty much everything that happens up to around that point is likely to happen by the end of Season 3, that's obvious. But... we also know that RW is in episode 9 "The Rains of Castamere", the penultimate episode. That still leaves room for some more major, season finale worthy events, in episode 10. Now do to it's title, "Mhysa," the general assumption is that the episodes big central moment will be

Dany conquering Yunkai.

I do agree that this event will happen in episode 10, and it will be a major awesome moment for TV and Book fans alike, and one that follows the trend of

past season finales where they focus a lot on Dany and feature her making a big victory of some kind.

However, I don't think this moment will be the ONLY major turn of events that happens, and in fact won't even be close to the biggest. I am of course referring to

Joffrey's death by poison at his own wedding to Margaery. AKA the Purple Wedding or PW.

While I know many others have assumed that PW will not happen til the start of of Season 4, I maintain that though that's more than possible, and sensical in a number of ways, it's also not the best way to tell the story IMO, especially for TV only fans, and not the way I feel D&D want to tell it. Now I will make my case for why this is...

1.) The finale's titular event, while an amazing moment, is also not a terribly surprising one, and no matter what they may do to raise the stakes of it, and make it dynamic, it will inevitably feel a tad bit redundant, especially I think to TV viewers given that

Dany will have already taken over Astapor

earlier in the season, in another big set piece that, according to some TV critics who got early looks, happens

at the end of episode 4, "And Now His Watch is Ended".

I think that they will want something even bigger and more shocking, like the moments that ended Season 1 and 2, to be the real talking point going into the off-season.

2.) Due in part to just how many of us Book readers are expecting it not until next season, it will be a shock to us as well, even if you're already in my camp, just on the basis that it could easily be held off for later.

3.) TV only fans don't know or have reason to care, about how and why the book is split up. They aren't even part of the conversation speculating on this. In other words, to their POV, anything can happen. D&D know this, and combined with #2, will want to take advantage.

4.) After episode 9... RW...

it seems to me, D&D may want to give the viewers a moment of victory to make up for the pain and rage that will come in the wake of such bloody tragedy and trolling. I don't think Dany taking another city is enough, if this is indeed a concern for the writers, which I think it may well be.

5.) Because if PW isn't in the season 3 finale, it would seem to make it hard for any of the involved characters to have a sufficient climax and perceived change of pace/direction/motivation going into Season 4, as they had in past season finales. I know that many will just say that this comes with the territory of only adapting part of one book, but look to #3 again; the art of dividing up the books means NOTHING to the majority of viewers, who are TV only. And looking at the arcs...

Tyrion getting arrested will make the best season ending cliffhanger for him and his arc. Sansa running away in the confusion and finding Littlefinger waiting, is the best end for her season arc. It will pay off the already more heavily televised planning and scheming of the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, as well as Littlefinger. It will give Cersei a start to her own arc which is likely going to have to begin next season as we move towards her own POV material.

6.) Because the less returning actors on the budget going into a new season, where they again will have to add even more, is something of great benefit to this show.

7.) It will get an even BIGGER response in the twitter sphere and zeitgeist as even the events of episode 9.

8.) Because there is still A TON of story left in ASOS, especially, and in fact most definitely, for the characters most directly involved in the event. In fact, it pretty clearly in the book begins essentially whole new story arcs for those characters...

Tyrion and his imprisonment/trial. Sansa with Littlefinger in the Vale. Jaime, once he arrives in KL, readjusting to life in the Kingsguard and returning to Cersei, which happens first thing after Joffrey dies.

There is also FOUR MORE BOOKS of stuff after ASOS, it's not like they need to stall. What? For GRRM to finish the last two books? For all the reasons above, that's just not good enough of a reason. Either it's what D&D think fits well into the finale, or not.

Now to counterpoint some of the reasons they may indeed have held off PW til Season 4.

1.) It's clearly in the 2nd half of the books - They've stressed that this is only a rough estimate, and that they aren't doing a split for the sake of a split, but rather to do the storytelling of the overall ASOIAF big picture the most justice. In other words, their not trying to save stuff for Season 4, as much as they are trying not to push Season 3 past its natrual 10 hour constraints, but they still have to keep the story moving as quickly and climactically as they can. Featuring PW in the finale follows this, and for the reasons I gave above.

2.) There are a number of major new characters who only arrive to be introduced in direct immediate preparation for PW. They can't possibly do these introductions justice cramming them into the final episode(s) of Season 3 - Very fair point indeed. However, they could do the event, mention such arrivals and informally introduce the characters to us off-screen, before actually meeting them properly in the flesh in Season 4. This is similar to how Stannis was handled in Season 1, and how the books in general preps characters and gives background on them long before they turn up face to face with a POV.

3.) This just in... GRRM is writing episode 2 of Season 4... doesn't that just perfectly bode well with PW being at the start of Season 4, in that very episode no less? - Okay this does give me pause http://grrm.livejour...43584#t17543584, but, hey, we all thought GRRM was writing the RW episode originally, but now it's quite clear that this is not the case. Seems to me like D&D prefer writing those big twist episodes themselves. Season 4 episode 2 could be something even cooler, and Blackwater-esque mind you...

Stannis's army battles the wildings? Or Dany takes over Meereen? Or any other amazing late Book 3 stuff

4.) ARE YOU CRAZY??? How is PW and all the other stuff with all the other characters gonna fit in one episode??? - Another very fair point. My theory on this, is that Season 3 will sort of have a 2 part finale of sorts, maybe even 3 parts. What I mean is that some characters stories will be over in episode 9, and no, not just the obvious ones. Some may even end in episode 8, like Jaime or Bran. Arya may require a single scene in episode 10 to show where she is at, but otherwise, I can easily see episode 10 focusing only on PW, Dany, and Jon. Maybe with a scene of Stannis or the Davos POV if they don't conclude that arc in episode 8 or 9.

All in all, either PW is this season, or it isn't. Season 3 and 4 are going to both be amazing either way.

[hanales]

I actually wasn't on board with the PW this season, but I'm starting to think it may happen, only because in invented scenes in the last two episodes they have made references to the royal wedding. Usually they don't telegraph that far out, but Tyrion pointing out that he will have trouble finding the money for it, and Joff/Cersei making outfits, it seems a little silly to push it out for another year.

Then again I could be wrong. I think I'll be surprised either way at this point.

[StannisEndGame]

Cat gets kiss of life. Ends Beric Dondarions arc and is right chronologically. Only sensible things. Imo Pw in season 3 is a REALLY bad idea

[Snow Owl]

I can't help but wonder if they will change things around and kill Joffrey off before his wedding. One scenario I consider to be plausible is that Joffrey calls for some kind of celebration after he hears about the RW and is poisoned there. This could easily fit into episode 10 and would tie in with seeing characters' reactions to the RW.

I still feel like the PW/Joffrey's death is the logical conclusion to the King's Landing arc this season. While I agree that the entire PW sequence would be too much to fit in this season, I think you could easily accommodate its most significant aspect into the season finale. Plus, three seasons in a row ending with devastation for the Starks, arguably the main protagonists of the story, would be tough for viewers to swallow.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

You forget to mention one major counter point against your idea: Time and Budget constraints. The show wants to do the event justice which means a lot of focus on writing and pacing, on costume and set design and on a good score. If they want to translate those scenes perfectly from the books AND do the Red Wedding well, they can't squeaze it into one episode. Or at least I wouldn't as a producer when I know that this is one of the only highlights for the next few books. Just think of all the interesting scenes in the Wedding: (Oberyn's arrival), Tyrion and Joffrey and the book gift, Tyrion and Shae's Dragon Sex, the Joffrey+Dagger+Bran reveal (though that can be moved), the Wedding in the sept, the feast and the Queen of Thorns complaining loudly about the rains of castamere being played in front of Tywin, then the Assassination, the Arrest, Sansa's escape, Dontos/Ros getting shot on the ship, etc. ... Would you want to have to cut back on those scenes just to have a good cliffhanger? GoT doesn't seem to me like a show that would have to resort to such tricks. Also, in show, it would be strange for the wedding guests to be happy after just having heard of the RW. No, it doesn't fit.

Also, we haven't heard one spoiler regarding it, so no, we won't have the wedding. We maybe have Joffrey die by poison, but it won't be at the wedding. And that would be such a loss of great scenes that they won't go there. As for climaxes for the last episode: Cat being revived by Arya/Nymeria + Beric, Bran at the Wall/Jon back at Castle Black seems to be enough for me. Also you have Cersei being told she is going to marry Oberyn "who will just arrive for the wedding tomorrow".

(Storytelling wise I would lastly point out that the Purple Wedding starts more stories than it ends, so it fits better at the start).

EDIT: @Snow Owl, but why would the producers want to throw out all of those scenes? They would all seem to me to make great television.

[lovethyjaime]

I am also under the impression that it will happen this season. Nikolaj Waldu Coster said in an interview that he can't wait to see the fan reaction to the "last two episodes". i think he was implying something huge is gonna happen in episode 10 as well. this is really the biggest thing they can do. Dany taking Yunkai isn't that big of a deal really.

[The hairy bear]

I was (and am) a staunch supportr that the best way to end S3 was the PW. It completes significant many archs and leaves the fate of a lot of main characters in the air. However, I'm convinced this ship has sailed.

We have had leakings of all the scenes that have been filmed with more than two extras. We have had reports of the RW, Sansa's wedding, Hoster's funeral, the fight against the bear, dracarys,... but we haven't heard anything about the PW. It's not going to happen.

Furthermore, the latest interviews with the producer have clarified that they intend S4 to be mostly the second part of ASOS. If the PW was included in S3, then S4 should include significant parts of AFFC ande ADWD.

1.) The finale's titular event, while an amazing moment, is also not a terribly surprising one

Last season's finale wasn't particulary surprising either. We knew the White Walkers were coming, and the rest was just a matter of preparing the ground for S3.

2.) Due in part to just how many of us Book readers are expecting it not until next season, it will be a shock to us as well

B&W are nor writing for book fans, who are a minority of viewers. We will see the show anyway.

You forget to mention one major counter point against your idea: Time and Budget constraints. The show wants to do the event justice which means a lot of focus on writing and pacing, on costume and set design and on a good score.

Budget constraints is a very good point, that's rarely made. There's a limit to the number of massive sequences you can shot. A PW in S3 would have to mean a smaller RW.

[King in the North Carolina]

I really think it's UnCat. It's the kind of high fantasy thing they've shown they like to use as a season-ending image, and it fits so well with the episode title.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Not happening this season. Wait and see.

[Abaddon]

What a novel idea that the PW will be at the end of the season...

[Iotun]

The PW WILL be at the end of the season, if not in Episode 9. The fact that Tyrion makes yet another reference to the royal wedding this season, when he the showrunners could have picked any other line for him to use to argue that Littlefinger should be in the capital seals it for me.

The argument that we've had too many leaks of scenes and no reference to the PW is a silly one in my opinion. In the last seasons the producers managed to keep things pretty much under wraps for a lot of the series secrets. I remember people in Season 2 wondering if the burning of Winterfell would be postponed to S3 because we didn't have Reek. I remember people being surprised at Dany having her dragons stolen, or the fact that Arya was made a cupbearer to Tywin, that the Northmen didn't capture Harrenhal, or the changes in Jaquens deaths. People also didn't know that Xaro was behind the dragontheft, and for the whole season we were wondering when the show would introduce Tyrion's chain for the battle of the blackwater.

What I'm getting at is that the showrunners have been very good about keeping secrets in the past, and not following the expectation of book readers, so why do people assume that somehow we should have 'seen' the Purple Wedding by now? The showrunners would not have tried to hide the fact that they would do the RW, because everybody knows it HAS to happen this season, they've been talking about filing the scene since the show started, but not revealing the details for the PW is following their standard practices up to now.

Secondly, and perhaps most imprtantly, leaving the PW for season 4 is bad TV and bad storytelling, so they'll do it this season.

ETA: Having said that, I'm pretty sure that the ending scene for the season will be the reveal of UnCat. Her scenes in the season so far showing her breakdown and pain are pointing to that being the climax of her story, and I can't see it being anything other than the ending scene. I think its as obvious as the 3 blasts being the ending scene for Season 2, and the dragon birth being the ending scene for Season 1.

[Mediumjon Umber]

PW is to big a deal to cram into the last episode. As the season is progressing at the moment there are a lot of events that need screen time.

I hope this season ends with the resurrection of lady Stoneheart. There's no need to show us it's Cat right away, just do it classy and show us a hooded zombie-looking shadow emerging from a cave.

[Independent George]

You forget to mention one major counter point against your idea: Time and Budget constraints. The show wants to do the event justice which means a lot of focus on writing and pacing, on costume and set design and on a good score. If they want to translate those scenes perfectly from the books AND do the Red Wedding well, they can't squeaze it into one episode. Or at least I wouldn't as a producer when I know that this is one of the only highlights for the next few books. Just think of all the interesting scenes in the Wedding: (Oberyn's arrival), Tyrion and Joffrey and the book gift, Tyrion and Shae's Dragon Sex, the Joffrey+Dagger+Bran reveal (though that can be moved), the Wedding in the sept, the feast and the Queen of Thorns complaining loudly about the rains of castamere being played in front of Tywin, then the Assassination, the Arrest, Sansa's escape, Dontos/Ros getting shot on the ship, etc. ...

Why does all of that has to happen? Just because it happened in the books doesn't mean it has to happen on the show. Hell, I've been wishing for Penny and the dwarf jousting to get cut. The money spent on costumes and sets for a lavish ceremony/reception would still only be a fraction of Blackwater's costs. You don't lose anything from trimming it down.

Would you want to have to cut back on those scenes just to have a good cliffhanger? GoT doesn't seem to me like a show that would have to resort to such tricks. Also, in show, it would be strange for the wedding guests to be happy after just having heard of the RW. No, it doesn't fit.

Yes. Yes I would. It's not a trick - it's the culmination of a season-long narrative arc that began with the arrival of the Tyrells. That's much more important than fanservice. As to your second point, the PW occurs almost immediately after the RW in the books (Catelyn's POV is Chapter 51, Arya's is Chapter 52; the PW is Tyrion/Sansa in chapters 58-60); I don't see how episode 10 is any different from that.

ETA: Having said that, I'm pretty sure that the ending scene for the season will be the reveal of UnCat. Her scenes in the season so far showing her breakdown and pain are pointing to that being the climax of her story, and I can't see it being anything other than the ending scene. I think its as obvious as the 3 blasts being the ending scene for Season 2, and the dragon birth being the ending scene for Season 1.

I hope not; the best place to reveal UnCat is S5E10, at Brienne's trial.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ lotun

No, cramming the Purple Wedding into this season, amidst everything else that's going on, is what would make for bad story-telling. You think the Purple Wedding may even be in episode nine? .....................

[Sasha Steelsong]

I can't help but wonder if they will change things around and kill Joffrey off before his wedding. One scenario I consider to be plausible is that Joffrey calls for some kind of celebration after he hears about the RW and is poisoned there. This could easily fit into episode 10 and would tie in with seeing characters' reactions to the RW.

I still feel like the PW/Joffrey's death is the logical conclusion to the King's Landing arc this season. While I agree that the entire PW sequence would be too much to fit in this season, I think you could easily accommodate its most significant aspect into the season finale. Plus, three seasons in a row ending with devastation for the Starks, arguably the main protagonists of the story, would be tough for viewers to swallow.

Ok this thought crossed my mind as well, though I admit I don't know how likely it is.

It would certainly save on the production costs if they only did one royal wedding instead of two...then they could just claim that they are switching all the preparations to Tommen and Margaery's wedding, and not have Margaery twice widdowed. I'd seen someone suggest some kind of family dinner and that Joffrey is poisoned there. Either way it would be shocking but could work, depending on where the showrunners want to go

[Sasha Steelsong]

@ lotun

No, cramming the Purple Wedding into this season, amidst everything else that's going on, is what would make for bad story-telling. You think the Purple Wedding may even be in episode nine? .....................

No, the wedding not happening when it has been mentioned in every episode would be bad storytelling and leave an unfinished arc in KL. Prior to the season starting to air I could see your point, but the frequency with which it is being mentioned and focused on suggests that it is still very much the focus of the KL story this season.

[Iotun]

I hope not; the best place to reveal UnCat is S5E10, at Brienne's trial.

I disagree. By S5E10 we won't have seen Catelyn for 2 seasons and the memory of her will have faded, as will have her importance to the viewers mind. Revealing her at that point will seem kind of lame, like the show resurrecting some random person who's not been important to the story for 2 seasons for shock value. Catelyn is important to us NOW, and her arc of pain and loss is important NOW, so we need to see what that will turn her in this season when she is important. I think George himself had a reason for showing us Catelyn's fate in the end of Book 3 and not in Book 4 when Brienne shows her.

The PW discussion is somewhat irrelevant now as the frequency with which the wedding is mentioned makes it certain that it will be in this Season. But as Khal has argued that it would be bad storytelling NOT to move it in S4: I've had this argument many times before. All the arguments against the PW being in this season basically boil down to problems of 'content'. The argument basically goes 'Given x,y,z happens in the book, there's too many things that have to happen before the PW, and moving it in S3 will make things rshed'. The show has made it very clear that it's willing to make significant changes and chronological shifts of content and events though. The problems with having the PW in S4 are not 'content' issues, they are 'structural' issues. Without the PW in Season 3, and without the preparations for that wedding through the season, a good third to half of the characters do not have a story arc in Season 3. As I mentioned in other threads, in TV shows, all characters and all plotlines must have an arc, a beginning, middle and end, and can't just exist for no purpose. You can't argue that because Robb's camp has one significant event, its ok to leave half the other characters concluding nothing at the end of the season, and not reaching a chapter close. Without the PW in S3, a great number of characters end the season without a movement into new territory, and start Season 4 exactly where they were a year ago (a good many character, Cercei, Joeffrey, Margaery,Loras, will efectively be at the same position they were 2 years ago, having achieved nothing in season 3), with no forward momentum, while having their Season 3 storylines quickly and rashly closed in the first episodes of Season 4, only to have brand new arcs start mid-season. Structural problems are much more significant than content problems.

Having the PW in Season 3 is NOT bad storytelling. If you judge the show by how completely faithful it is to the books, then it is probably a bad literal translation of the source material. Faithfulness to the books however does NOT correspond to good storytelling, especially when faithfulness does NOT work in the season nature of television. The showrunners will change and shift content around to improve the storytelling of the show as a TV product.

[Iotun]

Here's a question for the PW advocates. If the Purple Wedding is in Season 4, what is the difference in position for Cercei at the start of Season 4 in comparison to Season 3? How has she moved forward or changed either her position in the plot or her relationship with major characters in any way? She is effectively a character who is pretty much no different than how we left her at the end of Season 2, having had no significant arc in Season 3, and thus making her Season 3 scenes and story redundant. The same arguement goes for a great many other characters.

[hanales]

Here's a question for the PW advocates. If the Purple Wedding is in Season 4, what is the difference in position for Cercei at the start of Season 4 in comparison to Season 3? How has she moved forward or changed either her position in the plot or her relationship with major characters in any way? She is effectively a character who is pretty much no different than how we left her at the end of Season 2, having had no significant arc in Season 3, and thus making her Season 3 scenes and story redundant. The same arguement goes for a great many other characters.

I wouldn't call myself an "advocate" I'm basing it on the fact that they are talking about it far too much for them NOT to do it. But, with regards to your question,

Cersei is now a widow, and has watched her son die in front of her, and has had her brother imprisoned for it. This begins her descent into what I like to call "crazy ass Cersei" in AFFC and ADWD. So while she has the same "power" her personal arc changes dramatically at that point.

And if you DON'T have the purple wedding, then absolutely nothing happens to anyone this season in KL, with the exception of some gloating over events in other places, and Sansa marrying Tyrion.

Another reason that it makes sense is they have started the "LittleFinger takes Sansa from KL" arc as well. Why would they start this in episode one and have no resolution to it for over a year? That's not how television generally works, even game of thrones.

[Khal-a-bunga]

No, the wedding not happening when it has been mentioned in every episode would be bad storytelling and leave an unfinished arc in KL. Prior to the season starting to air I could see your point, but the frequency with which it is being mentioned and focused on suggests that it is still very much the focus of the KL story this season.

Until it isn't. The story in King's Landing is going to quickly transition to focus on the marriage of Sansa. Olenna will propose a marriage between Loraa & Sansa, which will prompt Sansa to forego her arrangement with Littlefinger. This will cause Tywin to intervene, and the Tyrion & Sansa betrothal will enter the picture. Just look at the synopses for episodes 4-8, and you'll see that they aren't going to continue to frame the King's Landing story line around the wedding between Joffrey & Margaery.

Furthermore, in literary terms, the death of Joffrey at his own wedding is an anti-climax. It's not a climax in narrative terms, whatsoever, and more importantly, it doesn't naturally lend itself to ending a series of story lines when it so clearly is more efficient and important in setting them up.

Not long to wait, now, but I'm 99.9% positive that we aren't seeing the Purple Wedding this season. And from a narrative stand point, and a logistical stand point (as Tyrion said, the event will be 'the most extravagant the kingdom has ever seen'), I think that's the right choice.

Joffrey dying doesn't provide any real consolation for the audience at that point. By that time, Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Tywin Lannister (possibly even Ramsay) will all be more prevalent in the mind of the audience. The death of Tywin is the real 'pay back' for the Red Wedding, and all the cogs that put that story line into real motion is the Purple Wedding. Which is why it will happen at the beginning of next season, not the end of this one.

And all this without mentioning the lack of shooting reports, and without bringing up that Oberyn Martell and Mace Tyrell (who will both surely be cast and show up prior to the wedding happening).