The Jon Snow ReRead Project!

[Winterfellian]

Great write up Butterbumps! I found your observations about Jon,Arya and death very insightful.

Ragnorak, you have an avatar! :D

I really liked all your points about Jon, Jaime and Areo.

I feel Osha's advice that Robb should've gone north and not south explains Robb's fall and Jon's rise. While both have a strong and mostly same foundation, IMHO, it's the lessons Jon learns and will because he went north that does and will enable Jon to keep going.

Nice observation. Is amazing how different are the paths this brothers have taken. Jon turned away from the Kingsroad when he had the chance and ended up becoming another crow; RobB didn't and ended up becoming the King in the North. Jon took under his protection a southern boy like Sam, while Robb did something similar for a northern woman like Osha. Unlike Robb, Jon heeded Sam's advice, even when his pride wanted to take him in another direction (Though to be fair, Sam was a friend while Osha wasn't). As a result of this, he ends up going north to swear his vows, only to discover the true threat the Realm is facing and maybe his own purpose.

Also, in last Bran chapter we have Robb reinforcing his identity as Ned's son and the Stark of Winterfell by calling the banners. Robb, Jon's rival and best friend, has become more of a Stark than ever. I think this comes into play in the way Jon feels when he receives Longclaw later on. But am getting ahead.

[Ragnorak]

Great write up Butterbumps! I found your observations about Jon,Arya and death very insightful.

Ragnorak, you have an avatar! :D

I really liked all your points about Jon, Jaime and Areo.

Thanks. The avatar is just the shield from the family coat of arms since it was past time I had one and nothing called to me. This is why I'll never be in danger of getting a tattoo.

On the watching front we also have:

One of the captives dropped to his knees. “Mercy, sire. I killed no one, I only stood at the door to watch for guards.”

Robb considered that a moment. “Did you know what Lord Rickard intended? Did you see the knives drawn? Did you hear the shouts, the screams, the cries for mercy?”

“Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it…”

“Lord Umber,” said Robb, “this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die.

I'm detecting a theme here. Something to revisit as Jon goes through his cycle of vow challenges.

[butterbumps!]

Were you drawing a connection between the Nights Watch and Syrio's seeing over just watching?

Yes, somewhat. Among other similarities, all of the Stark children (in POV's at least) hone iterations of "sight" in various capacities: Arya and "seeing," Bran's "tunnel vision," and at this point, Jon and "watching" (Sansa is also related to this, but I associate her more with a form of observational analysis). This notion of sight evolves in meaning for each of the children, and the children are in turn evolved by their engagement with various form of sight. I wanted to keep track of the subtleties and differences each of these permutations of sight offer to each of the siblings.

My "thesis" (having done a Jon reread project for DwD already, lol) is that Syrio is right here, especially in terms of how you explicate his meaning in your next post. Watching is passive; the seeing is what is actionable. I think that part of Jon's transformation across ASOIAF is from a watcher to a seer/ actor, so looking through the lens of sight symbolism Martin sets up as a way to understand Jon's evolution kind of interested me.

I'm keen to keep tracing the "watch" connotations as you've been. I think these distinctions hold meaning for Martin.

Bran VI

I feel Osha's advice that Robb should've gone north and not south explains Robb's fall and Jon's rise. While both have a strong and mostly same foundation, IMHO, it's the lessons Jon learns and will because he went north that does and will enable Jon to keep going.

Brilliant point.

I'll post Jon VII very soon! and thnx Winterfellian.

[Manderlay]

I'm detecting a theme here. Something to revisit as Jon goes through his cycle of vow challenges.

It was Intriguing what butterbumps wrote about the watching and seeing part, I think the watcher on the walls part in their vows is exactly what it means, the men of the NW are supposed to watch North and blow their horns in case of danger, send word to winterfell and the king of the threat to the realm, they are also supposed to watch and take no part in the wars of the realm.

However the watching does not apply to all of the NW, Jon was never a watcher, the seeing part applies to Jon because he conveys that throughout his chapters, he sees that Thorne was not training the green boys properly, he sees the different fighting styles of the other recruits and teaches them as he was taught by Ser Rodrick, he sees Sam for more than he is, sam is dismissed by others as craven and fat but Jon sees his usefulness and talks to maester Aemon, Aemon recommends Jon to Mormont because of his ability to see and not just watch, the officers in the NW are required to do more than just watch, so are the rangers.

For Jon it is not just watching but seeing as well, Syrios advice to Arya also fits Jon, this is more apparent when he becomes LC, he is not just watching and holding to his vows which is apparent in future chapters, i would like to give more references from the books but they are in future chapters, so i will stop here.

[butterbumps!]

JON VII

so much death!

overview

News about Ned’s arrest is bookended by developments involving a more existential threat: wights and Others.

The chapter opens with a small party examining the remains of two rangers who set out with Benjen earlier: Jafer Flowers and Othor (Jafer’s hand was found in the previous chapter by Ghost). The more seasoned men don’t immediately find anything unnatural about the bodies, but Sam speaks up to point out that something’s terribly wrong with the way the bodies have decomposed, leading others to observe their bright blue eyes and other inconsistencies. Some of the men craft makeshift stretchers, and the party returns to Castle Black with the bodies for further inspection by Aemon.

Bowen meets them at the tunnel to let Mormont know there’s been a bird. The corpses are put into a storeroom, and Jon takes care of the horses and runs into his friends. He’s told that King Robert has died before making his way to Mormont’s chambers to check in.

Mormont tells him the contents of the letter: Ned has been arrested for treason. Mormont kindly gives him the night off. Shaken, Jon walks through the castle, realizing with shame from people’s looks that they all know. Everyone treats Jon with extra kindness except Alliser Thorne, who loudly mocks Ned as a traitor at dinner. Enraged, Jon pulls out a dagger and lunges at the man, leading Mormont to punish him by confining him to his cell with Ghost.

During the night, Ghost is restless and begins scratching at the door wildly, getting Jon’s attention. Jon opens the door and follows the wolf into Mormont’s chambers, where the corpse of Othor is lumbering around, trying to get to the Lord Commander. Jon and Othor’s corpse fight, Jon saves Ghost from being strangled, then Ghost saves his master from the same fate. The episode is brought to an end when Jon grabs Mormont’s lantern, sets the drapes on fire, and burns the wight.

observations

weather + the Wall:

• While beyond the Wall inspecting the bodies, Jon note how unnaturally warm and overcast the day is:

  The day was grey, damp, overcast, the sort of day that made you wish for rain. No wind stirred the wood; the air hung humid and heavy, and Jon’s clothes clung to his skin. It was warm. Too warm. The Wall was weeping copiously, had been weeping for days, and sometimes Jon even imagined it was shrinking. The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last.

• After hearing the news about his father, however, Jon notes a swiftly growing coldness: The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he’d gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.
  
• By evening, it’s become downright cold: A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal.
  

Benjen: We get some clues regarding the fate of Benjen’s party (Jafer and Othor left with him). I put together some knowns on Benjen’s whereabouts here (it’s not really too crackpot).

quoth the raven:

• “Corn!” the bird shrieked. “Corn! Corn! Corn!” upon Jon’s being told of Ned’s treason (raven is not repeating what’s been said)
  
• “Black!” when Mormont tells Jon the treason is no concern of his (raven is repeating what’s been said)
  
• “Boy!” when Jon is chastised (raven is repeating what’s been said)
  
• “Corn,” the bird was screaming. “Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn, corn.” throughout the attack in Mormont’s cell (raven is not repeating what’s been said)
  
• “Burn!” when Jon snatches the oil lamp (raven is not repeating what’s been said—very interesting that “burn” is said unprompted)
  

analysis

Jon’s confrontation with mortality

Upon realizing that the corpses are men from Benjen’s ranging, Jon sees his own mortality plainly: “My uncle’s men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he’d pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here …” I think there are various meanings to the Stark words, but one definition I’ve come to associate increasingly is “Winter is Coming” = “death is inevitable.” I think this is the first time Jon has ever had to confront his own mortality, and the “spirit summer” he notes provides an atmospheric foil to Jon’s realization.

As Jon reminds himself that these are merely dead men, nothing he hasn’t seen before, he recalls another crypt dream from the night before. He specifically searches for his father, and goes further into the darkness, amidst dead kings rising. Filled with terror, he stays awake:

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he’d heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon

had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the east.

First, I think there’s something to the extremely divergent visions/ memories Jon and Arya have regarding the crypts; though Jon played a ghost, the imagined ghosts fill him with unspeakable terror. Secondly is how specifically Jon seeks his father here; later, Bran and Rickon will dream of Ned in the crypt just before receiving news of his beheading. Jon seems to be operating on that same wavelength here, knowing his father is in trouble.

Most interesting to me is that Jon chooses to calm the terrors by staying awake, mounting the Wall, and watching for Dawn. It’s instinctive for him, aligned with the words of his vow, yet he performs this ritual in a highly intuitive fashion.

Don’t look away, father will know

Jon coaches Sam to look at the dead in the same gentle manner he instructed Bran at the start of the series: “You have to look,” Jon told him, keeping his voice low so the others would not hear. “Maester Aemon sent you to be his eyes, didn’t he? What good are eyes if they’re shut?”

The problem that no one will name

It seems that suspicions about the Others’ being behind these attacks are on the tips of everyone’s tongues, yet no one wants to articulate this for fear of seeming childish: “Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch…” There’s irony here; Jon tells himself to forget his suspicions of the Others, as a man of the NW, yet, this order seems to have been established precisely because of the threats of the Others.

Sam finds courage to steer the mistaken men back on course, pointing out how these men are long dead and not at the hands of wildlings in all likelihood:

The corpses are still fresh, these men cannot have been dead more than a day …”

“NO,” Samwell Tarly squeaked.

Jon was startled. Sam’s nervous, high-pitched voice was the last he would have expected to hear.

Sam’s cravenness seems highly overblown given his willingness to admit his cowardice, facing his fate as a man of the NW, this, and later, offering to go pray with Jon beyond the Wall.

Jon recognizes that Ghost is different than the other animals here; he’s exclusively willing to touch the corpses and even led this ranging. The closeness of Jon and Ghost is emphasized this chapter, increasingly portrayed as a kind of completion of Jon: “Without the direwolf, Jon felt almost naked.” With Ghost off hunting, Jon is filled with dread and “Unbidden, he thought back on the tales that Old Nan used to tell them:”

In that darkness, the Others came riding, she used to say, dropping her voice lower and lower. Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every living creature with hot blood in its veins. Holdfasts and cities and kingdoms of men all fell before them, as they moved south on pale dead horses, leading hosts of the slain. They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children ...

I’m placing the version of this tale from Bran IV here again for convenience of comparison:

“what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.”

“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

“Now these were the days before the Andals

came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale

white spiders big as hounds—”

I will ask about my mother

It would seem that Jon still harbors some envy with regard to becoming a ranger. Despite Sam’s words and his confrontation with Benjen’s dead men, Jon feels grateful to be grouped in with “rangers returning” on his arrival: “The sound faded slowly to silence. One blast meant rangers returning, and Jon thought, I was a ranger for one day, at least. Whatever may come, they cannot take that away from me.”

When news of Robert’s death reaches Jon, he heartbreakingly mistake this as an opportunity to see his father again, believing that without Robert, Ned will be released from his duties as Hand. He imagines a family reunion, and steels himself to inquire about his mother, knowing that he could well be facing a hard truth:

“They were as close as brothers, once.” Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King’s Hand. It did not seem likely. That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord

Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father. I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know.

Love has no middle term; either it destroys, or it saves (V. Hugo)

When Jon arrives in Mormont’s chamber, he realizes something is terribly wrong. Mormont commands Jon to pour both of them wine and to sit; dreading the news, Jon draws this out for as long as possible to delay. Mormont begins with news of Robert’s death, imparting this wisdom to Jon: “They say the king loved to hunt. The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that. My son loved that young wife of his. Vain woman. If not for her, he would never have thought to sell those poachers.”

I think that as we read, we should question Mormont’s words here. I think that “love as the bane of honor” and Mormont’s “love destroys” are only half of the picture. I think that the Hugo quote offers a more complete dynamic, suggesting that both destruction and salvation can be achieved through love. I would argue that this has already applied to Ned’s promise to Lyanna, and will multiply variously as we keep reading.

Both Jon and Robb operate from the premise that Ned’s honor had been compromised due to the indiscretion of having fathered a bastard. Here, the “fact” that Ned sired a bastard causes Jon to question his father’s innocence:

“But it’s a lie,” Jon insisted. How could they think his father was a traitor, had they all gone mad? Lord Eddard Stark would never dishonor himself … would he?

He fathered a bastard, a small voice whispered inside him. Where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of her? He will not even speak her name.

Mormont plans to write to KL to appeal for Ned to take the Black. While Jon was excited at the possibility Ned would return to Winterfell and see him again, the thought of Ned’s joining him at the Wall makes Jon uncomfortable: “His father here. That was a strange thought, and strangely uncomfortable. It would be a monstrous injustice to strip him of Winterfell and force him to take the black, and yet if it meant his life …” Jon mentions the unfairness of stripping his father of his lands and titles, implicitly suggesting that the Watch would be something of a waste for him. However, I can’t help but think that part of Jon’s discomfort stems from the thought that he wants to “make it” at the Wall on his own, without the shadow of his father over him.

There’s a last bit of irony here in Jon’s reflections on Joffrey: “And would Joffrey allow it? He remembered the prince at Winterfell, the way he’d mocked Robb and Ser Rodrik in the yard. Jon himself he had scarcely even noticed; bastards were beneath even his contempt. “My lord, will the king listen to you?”

Watch takes no part?

Mormont makes two contradictory statements. First, he laments the fact that this political debacle in KL will negatively impact the Watch, which will need strong leadership in the face of the “unnamed” threat: “This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …” He gave Jon a long shrewd look. “I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy.”

Yet, he then insists that the troubles surrounding his father are no longer his concern, as “Whatever they do in King’s Landing is none of our concern.”

But, no, this is not true, by Mormonts own admission several paragraphs above. Like the advice about love, I believe Mormont is not acknowledging the full spectrum of what each of these (love and neutrality) entails.

Ghost offers Jon the most comfort in the aftermath of this shock, but he’s unable to rest easily knowing that Arya and Sansa are without their wolves: “Ghost was with him, he knew that much. The silent presence of the direwolf gave him comfort. The girls do not even have that much, he thought. Their wolves might have kept them safe, but Lady is dead and Nymeria’s lost, they’re all alone.” On a side note, though I think there could be correspondence between Jon and at least Winterfell, I wonder if Jon knew these details via warging.

A failed test?

Alliser is often shown studying Jon, but on this night, he goads Jon more severely than he’s ever done before. It’s a bit more extreme even for Alliser, I think. Jon’s immediate, unthinking response is to attack the man:

And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. “Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” he was telling the men around him.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand.

After Jon’s restrained, Mormont chastises him, reminding him that he said not to do anything stupid. Mormont lets him know that he’s extremely disappointed by his behavior and leaves him in isolation. This might be borderline crackpot, but I almost wonder if this was a test of sorts, that Mormont wanted to see how Jon would react to a personal slight and put Alliser up to it or some such.

Light in darkness

This contains some analogous imagery to Arya’s last chapter, in that they both involve a single burning candle in darkness. Jon stares into his flame, brooding; I was reminded of the way Jon stared into the fires at Tyrion’s suggestion earlier: “My father is no traitor,” he told the direwolf when the rest had gone. Ghost looked at him in silence. Jon slumped against the wall, hands around his knees, and stared at the candle on the table beside his narrow bed. The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought.”

If Othor rises, just kill him again

Jon literally endures the trial Arya feared she would have to with regard to the dead rising in the darkness. Even some of their thoughts are the same: both feel renewed comfort with blades in their hands, both keep their backs to the walls, both feel blind. Even the primal nature of their first killings are similar.

First, it’s Ghost’s life in the balance forcing Jon to act, as the wight attempts to strangle the wolf: “Jon had no time to be afraid. He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it. Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow. The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged.”

Then it’s Ghost’s turn to save Jon from strangulation: “When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon’s mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue.”

All the while, the raven has been flying around screaming, “Corn! Corn!” When Mormont enters carrying an oil lamp, the bird starts shouting “Burn!” without verbal provocation. Jon improvises almost instinctively, grabbing the lantern, setting the drapes on fire, and buring the wight: “Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn.”

[Lummel]

...My "thesis" (having done a Jon reread project for DwD already, lol) is that Syrio is right here, especially in terms of how you explicate his meaning in your next post. Watching is passive; the seeing is what is actionable. I think that part of Jon's transformation across ASOIAF is from a watcher to a seer/ actor, so looking through the lens of sight symbolism Martin sets up as a way to understand Jon's evolution kind of interested me...

If you are taking that line - then just to draw it out a bit more - then it suggests (at least) a fundamental inadequacy in the nights watch oath itself, which is something to bear in minding in reading Jon XIII ADWD and the run up towards it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As Jon reminds himself that these are merely dead men, nothing he hasn’t seen before, he recalls another crypt dream from the night before. He specifically searches for his father, and goes further into the darkness, amidst dead kings rising. Filled with terror, he stays awake:

First, I think there’s something to the extremely divergent visions/ memories Jon and Arya have regarding the crypts; though Jon played a ghost, the imagined ghosts fill him with unspeakable terror. Secondly is how specifically Jon seeks his father here; later, Bran and Rickon will dream of Ned in the crypt just before receiving news of his beheading. Jon seems to be operating on that same wavelength here, knowing his father is in trouble.

Really fascinating analysis, especially given that so much occurs in this chapter thematically — you have the first real taste of what the Others/wights can do, you have the fire imagery, the warged raven, Jon doing a bit of the berserker thing with Thorne, the choice between family and duty.

But the analysis of the crypts is what stuck out to me here, and I can't believe it hasn't occurred to me before now.

Jon is in Winterfell, and specifically the crypts, explicitly looking for his father. But he never finds him, only the rising dead kings in a very ominous way. Meanwhile, both Bran and Rickon dream of Ned in the crypts, independently, and this ends up foretelling the news that he's been killed.

Bran and Rickon are both Ned's sons, and they actually see Ned in the crypts in their dreams; that's why the dreams cause them such distress. Meanwhile, Ned is nowhere to be found in Jon's dream, in which he goes looking for his father.

... Bran and Rickon both see Ned because they are his sons, and Jon doesn't see Ned because he isn't. He will never find "his father" in Winterfell because his father is not there and never was.

[Manderlay]

• “Corn,” the bird was screaming. “Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn, corn.” throughout the attack in Mormont’s cell (raven is not repeating what’s been said)
  
• “Burn!” when Jon snatches the oil lamp (raven is not repeating what’s been said—very interesting that “burn” is said unprompted)
  

All the while, the raven has been flying around screaming, “Corn! Corn!” When Mormont enters carrying an oil lamp, the bird starts shouting “Burn!” without verbal provocation. Jon improvises almost instinctively, grabbing the lantern, setting the drapes on fire, and buring the wight: “Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn.”

Butterbumps! that was a good post, I had completely missed the detail about Mormont's Raven crying "Burn", nice catch.

A failed test?

Alliser is often shown studying Jon, but on this night, he goads Jon more severely than he’s ever done before. It’s a bit more extreme even for Alliser, I think. Jon’s immediate, unthinking response is to attack the man:

After Jon’s restrained, Mormont chastises him, reminding him that he said not to do anything stupid. Mormont lets him know that he’s extremely disappointed by his behavior and leaves him in isolation. This might be borderline crackpot, but I almost wonder if this was a test of sorts, that Mormont wanted to see how Jon would react to a personal slight and put Alliser up to it or some such.

An Intriguing thought and quite possible however I am not so sure about this one, Thorne has already turned some what malevolent towards Jon, Jon got Sam out of the training and taken with them to swear their vows to become a man of the NW, Jon japes about Ghost juggling in the common hall which Thorne takes as an slight and insult, I think Thorne might have been provoking Jon to discredit him in the eyes of the high officers, since Jon has already impressed upon some of them.

Something to note is the reaction of the brothers of the NW when Sam, Mormont are finished with their examination of the corpses, some brothers suggest burning of the corpses, which definitely points to the NW realizing what it means but afraid to admit it, the wildlings burn their dead and Mormont says he wished he had asked them why in later chapters but not sure which one, what is also interesting that it is not cold when they find the wights, so the others are definitely not around watching if the NW takes the bait, however there are several references to cold concerning wights, what I don't understand is how it remained warm when they found the wights, from what we know of wights is that they also bring cold or I am wrong about this and its only the others who bring the cold with them.

[butterbumps!]

Bran and Rickon are both Ned's sons, and they actually see Ned in the crypts in their dreams; that's why the dreams cause them such distress. Meanwhile, Ned is nowhere to be found in Jon's dream, in which he goes looking for his father.

... Bran and Rickon both see Ned because they are his sons, and Jon doesn't see Ned because he isn't. He will never find "his father" in Winterfell because his father is not there and never was.

I love this point.

I'd assumed that he doesn't see "his father" here because Ned's not dead yet, whereas, the later Bran chapter takes place between the beheading and the letter's arrival and could potentially explain the "mechanics" of seeing family members down there. But I love the double meaning you point to; I think that's purposeful, definitely.

An Intriguing thought and quite possible however I am not so sure about this one, Thorne has already turned some what malevolent towards Jon, Jon got Sam out of the training and taken with them to swear their vows to become a man of the NW, Jon japes about Ghost juggling in the common hall which Thorne takes as an slight and insult, I think Thorne might have been provoking Jon to discredit him in the eyes of the high officers, since Jon has already impressed upon some of them.

lol, Yea, I think it's far fetched too. I definitely think that Mormont was testing him in the aftermath of getting the news-- that is, observing him to see how he'd react generally--but I agree it's a stretch to say that Thorne was put up to it. Mormont's tone afterward suggests that Jon "failed" in at least remaining calm at provocation.

what is also interesting that it is not cold when they find the wights, so the others are definitely not around watching if the NW takes the bait, however there are several references to cold concerning wights, what I don't understand is how it remained warm when they found the wights, from what we know of wights is that they also bring cold or I am wrong about this and its only the others who bring the cold with them.

Good observation on the part I snipped about knowing to burn bodies.

But to clarify, it's said that the Others that bring the cold/ cold comes with the Others. The wights were brought through the Wall and placed into the ice cellars. Then the day becomes increasingly colder, so the bodies were increasingly refrigerated by the time they reanimate.

I think the suggestion that the Others were away to enable the men to take this "bait" is a good one. After that, though, it becomes extremely speculative. Cold doesn't seem fully necessary to animate the wights, but rather to preserve corpses so that they don't decompose and are thus able to be animated; Ser Alliser will bring the still-scuttling hand down to KL. Though by the time Tyrion meets with him, the hand has decomposed and no longer moves, the wight hand was animated for a good while south of the Wall.

A "known" to potentially figuring this out is the fact that the corpses were transformed into wights North of the Wall (their eyes were already blue); this could suggest that wights might operate south of the Wall provided the Others have already changed them from the north side, and further could suggest that the Wall does operate as a barrier in terms of raising new wights.

[Ragnorak]

Nicely done, Butterbumps.

The eerie suspense that is built up by Martin is exceptionally well done. The men are trying to rationalize the oddities in the corpses against the contrary backdrop of the frightened animals and Sam's observations. The dialogue and the circumstances wrestle with the acceptance of the supernatural.

We get a bit more of a picture of how the other members of the Watch view Jon here. Jon took the Black willingly which is an implicit acknowledgement of the honor in the institution. While this doesn't hurt we know from the prologue with Royce this alone doesn't mean much. He's Benjen's nephew and that probably matters a good deal especially if Jon's actions begin to resemble Benjen's. Being a pseudo-Stark from Winterfell also carries weight. The long history between the Watch and Winterfell isn't likely to sway any personal opinions but we know members of the Watch that visit Winterfell are given a lordly welcome and Winterfell sends supplies to Castle Black. Had Jon continued on his pre-Noye's advice path none of that would matter and might even have enhanced negative opinions of him. Unlike Royce who kept his noble caste in spirit, Jon's path is one where he for the most part treats the others in the Watch as equals or brothers. People like to see arrogance brought low and the near universal sympathy Jon receives over Ned indicates that he isn't perceived like a Royce and his Winterfell and family connections have translated into a positive thing for him at the Wall.

This is an incredibly loaded event as far as perception of Jon is concerned. These corpses were found on his trip to take his vows before the Old Gods. People see meaning in coincidences like that. Ghost found these corpses and the horses and dogs attack their masters if forced to go near them. How many other members of the NW notice Ghost's coloring matches the Old Gods? The rangers say "burn them" which on a reread we know comes from their contact with the Wildlings. They can't not notice Jon the Warg whose wolf found these bodies on his way to take his vows before the Old Gods. Jon remembers his siblings' wolves but they can't be far from the NW members' thoughts too. The Old Gods sent six direwolves to the children of Eddard Stark. One of those direwolves finds these corpses when one of his sons goes to take his vows before those same Old Gods only to learn of Eddard's imprisonment upon their return. If the direwolf mother killed by the stag set people's nerves on edge in Winterfell I can only imagine what those at the Wall are making of this. It seems even before Ghost saves the Old Bear's life that he's already perceived as the supernatural that's on their side. Also Jon is the very impetus for the Watch coming to terms again with their original purpose. This scene here and the later fight with the wight will not be without weight when it comes time to elect a new LC.

Really fascinating analysis, especially given that so much occurs in this chapter thematically — you have the first real taste of what the Others/wights can do, you have the fire imagery, the warged raven, Jon doing a bit of the berserker thing with Thorne, the choice between family and duty.

But the analysis of the crypts is what stuck out to me here, and I can't believe it hasn't occurred to me before now.

Jon is in Winterfell, and specifically the crypts, explicitly looking for his father. But he never finds him, only the rising dead kings in a very ominous way. Meanwhile, both Bran and Rickon dream of Ned in the crypts, independently, and this ends up foretelling the news that he's been killed.

Bran and Rickon are both Ned's sons, and they actually see Ned in the crypts in their dreams; that's why the dreams cause them such distress. Meanwhile, Ned is nowhere to be found in Jon's dream, in which he goes looking for his father.

... Bran and Rickon both see Ned because they are his sons, and Jon doesn't see Ned because he isn't. He will never find "his father" in Winterfell because his father is not there and never was.

Really like this, Apple. It also plays into Jon's earlier dream where he doesn't know who he is looking for. It fits with Ned's dream being the "end" of Jon's where does find what he's looking for and helps explain why Jon was having this as a recurring dream for some time. Something worth revisiting after Bran and Rickon have their dreams of Ned and Bran mentions that Ned's sadness was something he found disturbing that had to do with Jon.

[Fire Eater]

Really fascinating analysis, especially given that so much occurs in this chapter thematically — you have the first real taste of what the Others/wights can do, you have the fire imagery, the warged raven, Jon doing a bit of the berserker thing with Thorne, the choice between family and duty.

But the analysis of the crypts is what stuck out to me here, and I can't believe it hasn't occurred to me before now.

Jon is in Winterfell, and specifically the crypts, explicitly looking for his father. But he never finds him, only the rising dead kings in a very ominous way. Meanwhile, both Bran and Rickon dream of Ned in the crypts, independently, and this ends up foretelling the news that he's been killed.

Bran and Rickon are both Ned's sons, and they actually see Ned in the crypts in their dreams; that's why the dreams cause them such distress. Meanwhile, Ned is nowhere to be found in Jon's dream, in which he goes looking for his father.

... Bran and Rickon both see Ned because they are his sons, and Jon doesn't see Ned because he isn't. He will never find "his father" in Winterfell because his father is not there and never was.

Good one, Apple.

"My father is not a traitor,"

He is both right and wrong; what he said is true about his real father, but not Ned as he was a traitor to both kings, Targaryen and Baratheon. Ned rebelled against the Targaryens, which was committing treason, but Aerys had murdered his father and brother, intended to have Ned killed as well even though he committed no crime, and he thought the Prince of Dragnstone, Rhaegar, kidnapped and raped his sister, so he had pretty good reasons for fighting the Targaryens. No one here would dispute his reasoning. At the same time, Ned raised the Targaryen heir, Jon and hid him from the king he had chosen to follow, Robert, committing treason again, only this time it was against Robert, but Jon was his nephew and he promised his sister on her deathbed that he would protect Jon. Again none of us can fault him for that. Ned can't be called untrustowrthy and dishonorable even though he is a traitor to both sides, because the actions that would be labeled as treason he did for the right reasons, and he ended up creating ties to both houses Targaryen and Baratheon.

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen.

Jon's friendship with Tyrion has shown a contrast to the current relationship between Houses Stark and Lannister. His friendship with Tyrion compared to Cat's treatment of him also helps to give him a less solely Stark viewpoint of the conflict that is erupting between the Starks and Lannisters. One would consider Cat to the whiter character than Tyrion, but Tyrion manages to show more kindness and friendship to Jon than Cat ever showed Jon in his life. In some ways Tyrion was a better person than Cat and in other ways Cat was a better person than Tyrion.

ETA: I'm not saying Tyrion as whole is better than Cat, but just in that one instance with Jon. Jon helps to make Cat's character more grey, and not completely white.

[butterbumps!]

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen.

Jon's friendship with Tyrion has shown a contrast to the current relationship between Houses Stark and Lannister. His friendship with Tyrion compared to Cat's treatment of him also helps to give him somewhat of a more neutral view of the conflict that is erupting between the Starks and Lannisters. One would consider Cat to the whiter character than Tyrion, but Tyrion manages to show more kindness and friendship to Jon than Cat ever showed Jon in his life. In some ways Tyrion was a better person than Cat and in other ways Cat was a better person than Tyrion.

I don't think I agree with this. I'm not sure that Jon's friendship with Tyrion enables a "more neutral" view of the situation. I think that it allows him to better make a distinction between Lannisters as opposed to taking a unilateral view of them. But it's not neutral, exactly; he sides with Tyrion on this. He has the benefit of having gotten to know Tyrion better than any of the other Starks have; by contrast, he doesn't seem to have any idea of the reasons behind Cat's arrest of Tyrion including the hit placed on Bran, the letter, the dagger, or the run in at the Crossroads.

I'm also a bit reluctant about whether showing Jon kindness necessarily points to the conclusion that someone is a better person than another for doing so. Tyrion takes an interest in Jon out of a shared sense of being "different" from the rest of their respective families. At first, Tyrion was actually a bit of a jerk to Jon. It was only after Ghost attacked and Jon intervened that Tyrion genuinely warmed to him. Unlike Cat, Tyrion had no emotional baggage to overcome in terms of interacting with him. I guess, I don't know if it's fair to say that this yields the conclusion that Tyrion is a better person in this context, as he had nothing to lose nor any personal conflict for befriending Jon.

[Mark Antony]

.

Bran and Rickon are both Ned's sons, and they actually see Ned in the crypts in their dreams; that's why the dreams cause them such distress. Meanwhile, Ned is nowhere to be found in Jon's dream, in which he goes looking for his father.

... Bran and Rickon both see Ned because they are his sons, and Jon doesn't see Ned because he isn't. He will never find "his father" in Winterfell because his father is not there and never was.

Never thought of it like that but i love it. Makes a lot of sense.

[Scipio Africanus]

But the analysis of the crypts is what stuck out to me here, and I can't believe it hasn't occurred to me before now.

Jon is in Winterfell, and specifically the crypts, explicitly looking for his father. But he never finds him, only the rising dead kings in a very ominous way. Meanwhile, both Bran and Rickon dream of Ned in the crypts, independently, and this ends up foretelling the news that he's been killed.

Bran and Rickon are both Ned's sons, and they actually see Ned in the crypts in their dreams; that's why the dreams cause them such distress. Meanwhile, Ned is nowhere to be found in Jon's dream, in which he goes looking for his father.

... Bran and Rickon both see Ned because they are his sons, and Jon doesn't see Ned because he isn't. He will never find "his father" in Winterfell because his father is not there and never was.

Never thought about this either but yeah that's a good explaination.

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen.

Jon's friendship with Tyrion has shown a contrast to the current relationship between Houses Stark and Lannister. His friendship with Tyrion compared to Cat's treatment of him also helps to give him a less solely Stark viewpoint of the conflict that is erupting between the Starks and Lannisters. One would consider Cat to the whiter character than Tyrion, but Tyrion manages to show more kindness and friendship to Jon than Cat ever showed Jon in his life. In some ways Tyrion was a better person than Cat and in other ways Cat was a better person than Tyrion.

And @bumps!

There's also a more simple explination why Tyrion and Jon got along. They both were outcasts despite both having a noble parent. Both had a parent which 'hated' them. Both knew the opportunities for advancement were limited. Nothing bonds people more than being in a similar (social) situation.

[The Fourth Head]

Are they mad that he denied a king — Jon — his birthright, even if for his own protection? Thinking out loud here.

I'm not sure the old King's of Winter would really care whether the son of a youngest Stark daughter failed to claim a throne the Dragon's created down in the south 300 years ago. The IT never existed back in their day. It's a dragons' seat not theirs. I have a feeling their wrath may have something far more "Northern"about it- something fundamental perhaps that Ned, and the recent Stark generations have failed to remember- much like the forgetting of Dragonglass, or the failure to adhere to the saying "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"

it appeals to my crackpot notion that the vows of service until death are a form of human sacrifice that fuels the magic in the Wall. In many cases this is an alternative to death that brings life. A rebellious defeated lord chooses slow death at the Wall to buy life for his family and House mirroring the greater purpose of the Watch.

There is still a rebirth though. Even in the absorption of all the other identities the black one remains. Father, uncle nephew, son, cousin vanish but brother lives on. "Kill the boy and let the man be born" is a rebirth but the emphasis is on the birth not the death. The boy is holding back the man from the possibilities of life yet to come. The NW vow is very much weighted to the death aspect of the rebirth. Father no sons, take no wife, father no sons,hold no lands are about forsaking not only the possibilities of life but the very possibilities through which life is fostered and propagated. I do like the image you create of an army of the symbolically undead to guard against the literal undead.

Just...beautiful. A most inspiring crackpot theory. I love it.

A failed test?

Alliser is often shown studying Jon, but on this night, he goads Jon more severely than he’s ever done before. It’s a bit more extreme even for Alliser, I think. Jon’s immediate, unthinking response is to attack the man:

After Jon’s restrained, Mormont chastises him, reminding him that he said not to do anything stupid. Mormont lets him know that he’s extremely disappointed by his behavior and leaves him in isolation. This might be borderline crackpot, but I almost wonder if this was a test of sorts, that Mormont wanted to see how Jon would react to a personal slight and put Alliser up to it or some such.

Y'know, I think it could just boil down to the fact that Thorne could not resist having a pop at him and Ned, and Jon, being still young and raw, was unable to cope with the natural behaviour of an unpleasant man. He still needs to grow up. In Thorne's defence, I don't think this is all to do with Jon. I think Ned is a sore-point for him in the sense that Ned has this wonderfully honourable reputation. Thorne- a man condemned to serve on the wall- is there through banishment, and yet in his mind, Ned was the traitor, and he was not. The injustice is palpable, a kind of post-first world war, wounded-pride-germany style palpable, and any opportunity to stick the boot in regarding Ned's honour, particularly towards his proud, contrary 14 year old son who sabotages his lessons and tells him how to run his classes would have been impossible to miss out on. As unpleasant as he behaves towards Jon, it really is rough justice that so many people are forgiven for being on the losing side- not just Ser Barristan, Randyl Tarly etc, but the likes of Varys, Pycelle etc-, and yet he is singled out, victimised, besmirched simply because there were so many traitors, and the fact that Tywin, at that moment in time, had decided he wanted to send out a message to prove his loyalty to Robert Baratheon. He has a major itch to scratch here regarding honour and treason. To be a dishonoured "Ser" by those less honourable than yourself, when that "Ser" title defines how you see yourself (even if it is an empty label) must be a pure hell, although despite this, we struggle to feel sympathy for him because all this happened in the past and we only see his resultant behaviour.

What makes it all the more ironic is that Jon may not be a bastard, and may be a true Targaryan king. I am fascinated to know what has happened to Thorne and what attitude he will take if he meets Jon again and discovers the truth. What would that tell us about him? Would a 180 degree shift in attitude suggest that he is fickle, or honourable to his truths? Would a continually malignant attitude suggest a man who values his pride first and his beliefs second? Are you consistent to your personal feelings or your philosophical outlook? A very GRRM-esque conflict of the heart, potentially.

knowing to burn bodies..

Hmmm....

"Burn them," Someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who

Here is a point I read somewhere else (possibly the heresy threads?) that really resonates with me. I don't think it is mere coincidence that just when some old, long forgotten wisdom is whispered, Jon fails to identify the speaker. Note the word selected by GRRM whispered , it isn't muttered, murmered, or any other word- this word is a particularly significant one.

"the woods were full of whispers" was the opening line to a Catelyn's chapter coming up, after which a victorious battle was named- whispering wood. It also reminds me of Theon's experience next to the weirwood tree when he thought he heard Bran's voice but couldn't be sure.

The next time someone offers advice about burning the bodies, it's tellingly, Mormont's raven, so this "whisper" in the woods could well have come from Bloodraven too.

Anyway, it seems a possibility GRRM may have consciously allowed for through interpretation. He provides a perfectly rational explanation for someone whispering shyly, and a potentially superstitious one.

I also like Jon's thought process in attempting to rationalise it, by instinctively thinking "someone said" then consciously rationalising that it must have been the rangers, but then being unable to narrow it down any further. Is this a case of true instinct being overwritten by rationalisation? We already see an example of this when he concludes that his superstitions and fears when entering the woods are "all in the knowing"- but some things- like talking trees- are actually a reality in this world. Jon does not know this yet.

I'm not sure whether it's a true parallel or not, but Tyrion seems to display this overwriting of natural instincts quite often. He instinctively feels guilt at upsetting Jon on their trip to the wall, before his mind analyses it and concludes that such a feeling is absurd. Why he does this is open to debate, but I guess it could derive from 2 sources-

1) That it's an automatic coping mechanism that kicks in whenever he feels guilt. As a dwarf, he sees disgust and discomfort written in the eyes of virtually everyone- that is, when he isn't being openly mocked. To feel guilty that he is making people feel uncomfortable would be utterly self destructive. Furthermore, by showing their feelings, they make HIM feel bad, so it's easier all around for him to deliberately shut out their feelings from his head. feeling bad, and making others feel bad= absurd.

2) (and more likely) That Tywin's lesson- watching Tysha be raped by 40/50 men for...what? a gruelling process of 4 hours? (how long does it take to be raped by 40/50 men?) totally warped his head in terms of coping with guilt. After a while, he must have become numb to her distress, or forced to tell himself that she deserved it, because it was a choice of that, or suffer a total mental breakdown. He was then willed to pervert all his former feelings of guilt by raping her, thus tainting any remaining feeling's of guilt. From then on, any feeling of guilt reminds him of the time he felt tremendously guilty watching Tysha getting raped, only to end up raping her himself- guilt=absurd.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I'm not sure the old King's of Winter would really care whether the son of a youngest Stark daughter failed to claim a throne the Dragon's created down in the south 300 years ago. The IT never existed back in their day. It's a dragons' seat not theirs. I have a feeling their wrath may have something far more "Northern"about it- something fundamental perhaps that Ned, and the recent Stark generations have failed to remember- much like the forgetting of Dragonglass, or the failure to adhere to the saying "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"

Good thoughts and I agree. I'm wondering if they are angry at a half-Targaryen boy being IN the Winterwell vaults, since Targaryen's put three of their family members there.

I found a few things interesting in this chapter. One was that this was the first of the two incidences that we witness Ghost baring his teeth to Jon. Sorry to look ahead but the second time was in Jon's rotten last chapter in ADWD. It seems to me that Ghost is trying to get the message across ," You MUST let me guard you right now!!!" but Jon doesn't get the correlation.

"Your duty is here now", the LC reminded him. "Your old life ended when you took the black. Whatever they do in KIng's Landing in none of your concern." When Jon did not answer, the old man finished hsi wine and said," You are free to go. I'll have no further need of you today. On the morrow, you can help me write that letter." ( the letter asking the King to allow Ned to take the black)

Isn't it odd that Jeor would ask Jon to help him write that letter when he's just told Jon that KL is none of his business. He has such a soft spot for Jon, the kind of soft spot that parents have for their own children. Jon is rendered speechless in dismay and Jeor tries to lift his spirit with a kind gesture. It's quite unwise what Jeor is offering. If he allows Jon to help him write a letter pleading for Ned's life, do you really want that child to feel responsible if their parent is sentenced to death? The child would blame themselves for not finding the right words in the letter!

Another interesting thing was the mess hall scene, Jon vaults down the table at Thorne "In a blink of an eye". His friends, one of whom is severely overweight, are right there in an instant to stop him. It appears that they instinctively knew what Jon was going to do and reacted "in a blink of an eye" too.. While he's slashing at Thorne's cold onyx eyes, Sam heroically jumps in front of Thorne and prevents Jon from stabbing him. Jon is trying to get around Sam when the other three friends wrench the dagger from his hand. Jon's four friends that he's taken under his wing saved Jon from from himself. If he had killed Thorne, Jon would have been sentenced to death!

And is that the only reference to "onyx eyes" in the whole series? Could someone with a KIndle check it for me please?

One weird thing I noticed in this chapter: when Jeor is standing naked in the tower room, Jon tries to shout to him but his voice is gone ( Othor had tried choking him by pushing his black hand down Jon's throat). Jon races to the old Bear, grabs the lantern and throws it onto the drapes on the floor. With a whoosh, the drapes ignite into a huge fire. "Ghost!" Jon then shouts. Was that a mental shout, do you suppose? Five seconds earlier, he was unable to make any sounds come out of his bruised throat. Prior to that shout, Jon thinks that," The heat of it (fire) was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known". Could the fire have healed his voice?!! Doesn't a fire-y kiss also remind you of Melisandre, in a way?

[Fire Eater]

The heat of it (fire) was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known". Could the fire have healed his voice?!! Doesn't a fire-y kiss also remind you of Melisandre, in a way?

I think it foreshadows Jon's relationship with red-headed Ygritte, who is kissed by fire.

[Mladen]

I think it foreshadows Jon's relationship with red-headed Ygritte, who is kissed by fire.

Nice catch. And I agree with it. I am peculiarly intrested in Jon`s possible relationships with ladies `kissed by fire`.

[The Fourth Head]

Good thoughts and I agree. I'm wondering if they are angry at a half-Targaryen boy being IN the Winterwell vaults, since Targaryen's put three of their family members there.

Isn't it odd that Jeor would ask Jon to help him write that letter when he's just told Jon that KL is none of his business. He has such a soft spot for Jon, the kind of soft spot that parents have for their own children. Jon is rendered speechless in dismay and Jeor tries to lift his spirit with a kind gesture. It's quite unwise what Jeor is offering. If he allows Jon to help him write a letter pleading for Ned's life, do you really want that child to feel responsible if their parent is sentenced to death? The child would blame themselves for not finding the right words in the letter!

Jon is trying to get around Sam when the other three friends wrench the dagger from his hand. Jon's four friends that he's taken under his wing saved Jon from from himself. If he had killed Thorne, Jon would have been sentenced to death!

its very possible, but perhaps on a magical level too. If this is the home of ice and winter, could they be feeling anger towards the presence of a person with dragonfire in his blood? In that sense, he is indeed a bastard- a mixing of two magics that are opposed to one another. It's interesting, although I should clarify that I was referring back to Ned' dream regarding why he should be feeling their wrath. Rickard and Brandon do not feel angry- both of them died meddling in the south. Ned is about to die in the south, and I wonder whether the Old Kings feel anger towards Robb upon his return too? Perhaps on a magical level, they could all have lived had they not left the protection of the Old Gods, as forewarned by Osha, and through rhyme or reason, their actions all contributed to the ruin of their house and it's ultimate occupation by their arch nemeses The Boltons.

Great point about the letter, I've never thought about it that way. I would make a terrible parent!

About Jon, you are right. He decided to commit suicide in the name of honour.

He was incredibly lucky this chapter on many, many, counts, firstly because his friends stopped him, (there really would have been no coming back had he managed to stab Thorne) secondly, that the wights attacked the Lord Commander when they did as it provided him with an opportunity for redemption, thirdly, that Ghost warned him, fourthly, that Ghost saved him, and fifthly, that Mormont's bird told him what to do. He really is a very lucky chappie, our Jon.

Has anyone got any ideas as to what Jeor's long term plan was for Jon after having him imprisoned? I'm not sure he could have been restored to his steward duties alongside Mormont given Jeor's disappointment in him, nor would it have been possible so long as Thorne was around. I'm pretty sure Mormont's plan to send Thorne down to KL came after Jon saved him, though I could be wrong.

But most interesting of all, what impact do you think Jon's attempted knifing of an officer had on Thorne's other cronies- such as Bowen Marsh? Just think, Bowen, in a year's time, this reckless stabby boy who's judgement is so impaired he is prepared to commit suicide when provoked will be your LC. I really feel for Jon as I think a lot of people would have acted the same, but for an old man like Bowen Marsh, it can't have made a good impression and may be where his low opinion of Jon's decision making stems from. Noble and brave? Yes. Sensible? Definitely not, and this may pray on his mind when Jon starts commanding him to let wildlings through the wall despite lacking in provisions, or when he learns of Jon's plan to send them off to Eastwatch against the Others despite the failure of Mormont's great ranging. I'm not saying Jon's future decisions are as bad as his actions now, but there is a clear connection in terms of selfless risk-taking.

There are also clear parallels between this scene, and how Jon reacts to the provocation of the Pink Letter. For conspiracy theorists, the occupants of the room all bore witness to Jon's moment of weakness. Thorne played him well. Bowen Marsh, take note.

[Lummel]

...He was incredibly lucky this chapter on many, many, counts, firstly because his friends stopped him, (there really would have been no coming back had he managed to stab Thorne) secondly, that the wights attacked the Lord Commander when they did as it provided him with an opportunity for redemption, thirdly, that Ghost warned him, fourthly, that Ghost saved him, and fifthly, that Mormont's bird told him what to do. He really is a very lucky chappie, our Jon...

Luck? You are using that word ironically I hope. We saw that he worked to gain those friends, we can surmise that Ghost was provided to Jon to be able to assist in such eventualites, to see Mormont's Raven as playing at least occasional host to Bloodraven requires no stretch of the imagination.

Though I suppose at a meta level there should be no luck unless GRRM is using dice to help plot the novel :laugh:

In passing I'll mention wilful blindness “none so blind as those that will not see” amongst the Watchmen. The sense of threat is deliberately vague (prologue, Old Nan's tales) but threatens to be apocalyptic. A sense of menace that is contrasted with the south where we have the 'game' of thrones. The game involves deception as well as hiding and obscuring reality. The situation in the north is instead simply ignored but the text suggests something far more serious and significant.

Mormont's wilful blindness seems particularly odd since he is the one who mentioned the white walkers to Tyrion in Tyrion III. Perhaps some things are best not discussed sober ;)

ETA time to remember what Butterbumps had to say about freedom and unfreedom and perhaps expand that into thinking about oaths and obligations too?