R+L=J v.47

[J. Stargaryen]

Please, no worries friend. :grouphug:

Thank you. :)

[FrozenFire3]

I'm sorry - I'm still on page 10 of this thread (been a little busy) so just adding my 2¢ : YES PLEASE.

Here is your list of R+L=J interview related :)

Kit Harington:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/09/kit-harington-on-game-of-thrones-fame-and-playing-emo-hero-jon-snow.html

http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/game-of-thrones-kit-harrington-on-season-two-sex.html

Sean Bean:

http://www.vulture.com/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

Alfie Allen:

http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

Sophie Turner:

http://www.vulture.com/2012/05/game-of-thrones-sansa-sophie-turner-interview.html

Ciaran Hinds:

http://www.vulture.com/2013/04/game-of-thrones-mance-rayder-ciaran-hinds-interview.html

Bryan Cogman:

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/06/08/496478/game-of-thrones-story-editor-bryan-cogman-on-the-second-season-adapting-books-he-loves-and-the-shows-secret-main-character/?mobile=nc

http://geek-news.mtv.com/2012/10/02/interview-bryan-cogman-inside-hbos-game-of-thrones/

D&D:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Elio's post:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80763-m-l-j-and-qhorin-knewsuspected-it-no-crackpot/page__st__40#entry4088451

[Ser Creighton]

Are you kidding me? I am so done.

This wasn't about your response (sorry if you took it that way) but rather my aggravation with Corbon's pouncing on me.

You need to take it down a lot of people are upset, I read Corbon's remarks and Stars and nobody was jumping on you. One made a clear joke and the other was rather pleasent and gave you good information. Just relax and take some breaths and calm down your getting upset at the wrong people.

I will not go into details, but will get them, we always get them and it's not Corbon or Star who they are looking for. It's bad, we been through worse, but don't lash at out at people who had nothing to do with it. Take some time and post when your ready to, and enjoy yourself when you do it.

[Ser Creighton]

Not to rail us back on topic or anything, but there's a big part about all of this that I find troubling. The question keeps being raised about how the facts of Jon's birth parents and his legitimacy or lack thereof will be brought to the attention of both Jon himself and the realm as a whole. When this question is raised, it usually leads to one of two answers:

It doesn't matter as he'll need to win the Throne with fire and blood (and dragons wouldn't hurt), or

The Throne is about to become a complete non-issue with the coming of the Others.

So then why the great mystery? It's not like GRRM was all coy about it or anything. It's an obvious mystery that's meant to be a big reveal later in the books. They even foreshadowed it on the TV show. But all the theories bouncing around back and forth seem to indicate that, while it would be a neat fact and a lovely confirmation to all this theorycrafting and nickpicking, the fact itself really wouldn't count for much in the grand scheme of things.

Please understand, I'm not talking about him being Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised or even the ultimate personification of Ice and Fire. I'm merely talking about the happenstance of his birth. Why tease it so badly if, in the end, it's likely going to end up irrelevant?

I guess my real question is, how does GRRM go about MAKING Jon's birth and his mystery parents actually relevant to the story...

Hey we were talking about Sanka! It's important to know your enemy!

Seriously though, it's a fare question but not one that has one answer. What kind of relevance are you looking for? For the character of Jon not knowing who his mother is has been very important to his development. In a lot of ways being a bastard has defined him. Jon also has to learn to except it and deal with it, it's part of his growing experience. I know it's been a long time for the fans, but Jon is only 16 and has been on his current journey for 2 years. It has a great deal of importance to his character.

What you really seem to want to know is the future. But ask yourself how would it have read if Howland Reed suddenly shows up and is like Jon your mom is such and such. What wold be his motivation to do such a thing? Or if someone like Mormont or Cersei suddenly new who his parents were and spilled in their POV? It would make no sense and not read well at all.

You have the prophecy or two prophecies actually. Maybe Jon is AA come again or maybe the Prince or maybe neither. But they are relevant and they are options. Maybe Jon is the Heir to the throne, it could be important in getting support, and the man does not have a lot of support. It may be important to the Dragons, he may end up being the last Targaryen alive, he could be a king, he could be the rightful wielder of Dawn. We don't really know. Or at least some of us except the fact that we don't really know, hey maybe it will be a life changing emotional moment, it's kind of a big deal to Jon, I would like him to know even if it does not mean he is this or that. I can't give you a 100% anything, but I can give you options. And you like the rest of unfortunates are going to have to wait for the next book, sucks don't it?

[brew]

Also because if it's true then Ned compromised his honour for his family/ sister and was willing to go to the lengths he did purely because Jon was his nephew.

Otherwise Ned Stark for all his honour still ended up getting a bastard on someone despite the fact that it was never the honourable thing to do (and then shoved said bastard in Cat's face for fourteen years). Personally as much as i'd like to see the unknown prince trope here (and I don't think Martin's going out of his way to twist every single fantasy trope like some people suggest). It has just as much to do with showing what kind of person Ned Stark really was at the end of the day.

[Alia of the knife]

You need to take it down a lot of people are upset, I read Corbon's remarks and Stars and nobody was jumping on you. One made a clear joke and the other was rather pleasent and gave you good information. Just relax and take some breaths and calm down your getting upset at the wrong people.

I will not go into details, but will get them, we always get them and it's not Corbon or Star who they are looking for. It's bad, we been through worse, but don't lash at out at people who had nothing to do with it. Take some time and post when your ready to, and enjoy yourself when you do it.

I think UVA's repsonse and tone to Corbons explaination was seperate and apart from yesterdays events.

But, why indeed put something like this out, charge money for it if it's so unreliable. It is only a source, and I got that she was only referencing a small aspect of it?

This is also the same App. that says pretty definitivley Rhaegar and Lyanna, Brandon as well as Ashara are dead. These characters are also well in the past, and confirming their deaths doesn't hurt the future integrity of the story, or give anything away.

The only parcing is the way they refer to "Aegons and Jons place of death," which is not the same as saying they're dead.

However, I do think some, and I'm not saying anyone on this forum, like to move the "goal post" when an idea they've always had is contradicted, so then they question the source because it doesn't agree with their ideas.

I see the same thing go one with POV characters like Selmy. When he stated that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna," and told Dany that Rhaegar was only "fond" of Elia, the Martell camp got up in arms and started debunking Selmy as a reliable POV.

Also because if it's true then Ned compromised his honour for his family/ sister and was willing to go to the lengths he did purely because Jon was his nephew.

Otherwise Ned Stark for all his honour still ended up getting a bastard on someone despite the fact that it was never the honourable thing to do (and then shoved said bastard in Cat's face for fourteen years). Personally as much as i'd like to see the unknown prince trope here (and I don't think Martin's going out of his way to twist every single fantasy trope like some people suggest). It has just as much to do with showing what kind of person Ned Stark really was at the end of the day.

And this is why Ned is one of the most tragic characters in the book.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Also because if it's true then Ned compromised his honour for his family/ sister and was willing to go to the lengths he did purely because Jon was his nephew.

Otherwise Ned Stark for all his honour still ended up getting a bastard on someone despite the fact that it was never the honourable thing to do (and then shoved said bastard in Cat's face for fourteen years). Personally as much as i'd like to see the unknown prince trope here (and I don't think Martin's going out of his way to twist every single fantasy trope like some people suggest). It has just as much to do with showing what kind of person Ned Stark really was at the end of the day.

Saying he shoved the bastard in Cat's face is a bit harsh isn't it? I mean in the end he would be looking after his own child. Equally I can easily see how even an extremely honourable man might slip the surly bounds of marriage to a woman he's barely met before for political reasons to spend time with a woman he loves.

[The guy from the Vale]

No, saying that is not harsh at all. Ned might have ensured Jon's well-being in other ways than raising him at Winterfell, like sending him to some other family as a ward where he wouldn't be in Cat's face all the time. There would have been options, and Ned, having been fostered himself, would know about them. That he didn't resort to any of that indicates that he had additional reasons for doing what he did.

[Zupoleon]

No, saying that is not harsh at all. Ned might have ensured Jon's well-being in other ways than raising him at Winterfell, like sending him to some other family as a ward where he wouldn't be in Cat's face all the time. There would have been options, and Ned, having been fostered himself, would know about them. That he didn't resort to any of that indicates that he had additional reasons for doing what he did.

As in a promise he made to his sister.

[Snark_Tamer]

Halo, fine folks. I've been on a boards a wee little while, eying the L+R thread longingly, but it was too long to read ALL and it felt disrespectful not to, so though I know several of you are in mourning, and I sympathize for your loss, I'm very excited to jump on this 47th iteration early to see what's up.

I spot some like spirits in here--I have a history of this level of analysis with Harry Potter several years back, but around HERE I am newish... and I think I've found the mother ship. This was one of the few theories I spotted myself on first read and I'm thrilled to see such supporting evidence. THANKS ALL for the links and all (I will work my way through them)

As to WHY it's importance... Ice and Fire are both critical, yes? And Jon is up there on the front line, thinking he is only Ice... What if, for a time, he thinks he needs Dany? We know how hard she can be to get along with (especially as what SHE KNOWS is Ned helped Robert steal the throne)--learning the truth of his birth:

1) makes the two of them family and puts Jon before her in line of succession

and

2) means he is Ice and Fire all by his lonesome, so honestly, how badly does he need her?

And yes--Jon has a lot of self doubt because his father dishonored himself by siring a bastard. How much does that CHANGE when he learns Ned was actually willing to APPEAR to dishonor himself to safe the life of his sister's child? Seems to me that will have a huge impact on Jon's self concept, via his attitudes about Ned (and why Ned wouldn't tell him who his mother was)

[Ghost's Shadow]

As in a promise he made to his sister.

Plus a need to check if Jon was another crazy Targ...

Jon being raised by Ned was the best thing that could have happened to him given the circumstances, I think. He turned out good.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

No, saying that is not harsh at all. Ned might have ensured Jon's well-being in other ways than raising him at Winterfell, like sending him to some other family as a ward where he wouldn't be in Cat's face all the time. There would have been options, and Ned, having been fostered himself, would know about them. That he didn't resort to any of that indicates that he had additional reasons for doing what he did.

Still think that's pretty harsh. I mean essentially you're asking him to chose between his own son and a wife he barely knows (at that point). Yeah there are other ways of doing it but surely it's more honourable to own your mistakes and take care of them yourself?

[Ygrain]

Still think that's pretty harsh. I mean essentially you're asking him to chose between his own son and a wife he barely knows (at that point). Yeah there are other ways of doing it but surely it's more honourable to own your mistakes and take care of them yourself?

You're applying modern standards here. If a Westerosi nobleman fathers a bastard and doesn't shun his responsibility, he sends him to some good folks to foster. This way, the kid gets loving foster-parents, lady wife is not offended, win-win. Alternatively, a bastard may be raised at his father's place - but NOT as a part of the family, eating at their table and what not. Not what Ned did, that was absolutely against the standards.

[Zupoleon]

Plus a need to check if Jon was another crazy Targ...

Jon being raised by Ned was the best thing that could have happened to him given the circumstances, I think. He turned out good.

Yes, being raised by Ned (values) was great for Jon. But I doubt there was any concern on Ned's part that he'd be raising a future Aerys junior. For one, Rhaegar displayed no signs of madness (despite some fans trying to twist the facts). Furthermore, Jon wasn't the product of Targ incest, so there was no 'roll of the dice' to worry about...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Yes, being raised by Ned (values) was great for Jon. But I doubt there was any concern on Ned's part that he'd be raising a future Aerys junior. For one, Rhaegar displayed no signs of madness (despite some fans trying to twist the facts). Furthermore, Jon wasn't the product of Targ incest, so there was no 'roll of the dice' to worry about...

I'm sorry, but I don't think that means that he could never have the madness. Are we 100% clear that ONLY from incest the crazy or unstable ones were born?

The gift of prophetic dreams alone could drive a man half-crazy if it were strong.

I'm not saying that Ned kept a very close eye on Jon for like the sole reason of seeing if he was mad or not, it might have not even entered his mind, but I've seen it being mentioned before and it might have been considered by Ned.

[Zupoleon]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that means that he could never have the madness. Are we 100% clear that ONLY from incest the crazy or unstable ones were born?

The gift of prophetic dreams alone could drive a man half-crazy if it were strong.

I'm not saying that Ned kept a very close eye on Jon for like the sole reason of seeing if he was mad or not, it might have not even entered his mind, but I've seen it being mentioned before and it might have been considered by Ned.

Of course it was possible that Jon could grow up to be mad, but the same is true for anyone then, even Arya, Sansa, Bran, (by your logic).

[Ghost's Shadow]

How so by my logic could Arya, Sansa, Bran and whoever else be crazy Targs?

Give me the proof I need to convince me that only from double Targ'ed parents crazy/unstable Targs were born, and that no one else known had any problems, even only a generation later?

Not everyone on here eats family trees for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

[Snark_Tamer]

*cough* Cersei *cough*

Yeah, madness can come from other directions. They talk about flipping a coin when a Targarean is born... but it DOES seem to be mostly attributed to incest (and that IS a reasonable route to increase the incidence. Incest really reduces the ability of hybrid genetics to counter unusual deficits). And Rhaegar is a result of incest, even if Lyanna and the Rhaegar/Lyanna combo were not, but since the qualities didn't present in Rhaegar, that exaggerated risk is probably gone.

[Eurybia]

Do we know who Maekar I married? Aerion Brightflame sure was a nut, but I don't remember ever hearing who their mom was.

It seems logical to me that Ned would have kept an eye on Jon, searching for any Targaryen traits that may have popped up. It would have been important to his safety, making sure he didn't have silvery hair or think he was a dragon. (How much did it freak Ned out when Jon started talking about how her idolized Daeron the Young Dragon? Hehe.)

[Snark_Tamer]

I don't see any canon on who Maekar married--there were 6 kids, so feasibly more than one woman, but the wiki doesn't list it.

I'd think Ned's primary concerns about Jon would be identifying features--he wouldn't want his ancestry to be spotted. Thankfully, he looked more like Ned and Arya than anyone else.