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R+L=J v.47


Angalin

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I think UVA's repsonse and tone to Corbons explaination was seperate and apart from yesterdays events.

Thanks so much Alia. Yea, like so many of us, I was feeling raw after yesterday's events and I had little tolerance for what I felt at the time was unnecessary nitpicking. I don't feel that way and I apologize for any misunderstandings that this may have caused.

Anyhow, I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread (or the recent previous iterations) but wanted to call attention to the significance in a GoT(Jon I) of Jaime wearing Targaryen colors (red and black) while Jon thinks he looks like a king ([Jaime] is what a king should look like). To me (and others) Jaime-in-Targ-colors conjures up Rhaegar.

A few posters In the Jon Chapter re-read project (come on down!) propose that this Jaime-Rhaegar parallel is intentionally made to support R+L. Consider that Jaime is never again described wearing Targ colors, only Lannister Red or KG white. Couple this fact with that it is Jon (with the mysterious parentage) who notes Jaime's colors and concludes that he is what king should look like. Even Jon's awestruck description of Jaime as he walks into the feast is similar to some of the highly romanticized descriptions of Rhaegar.

Jon: Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak.

Ned: ...the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

-- The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House

wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him.

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Hey we were talking about Sanka! It's important to know your enemy!

Seriously though, it's a fare question but not one that has one answer. What kind of relevance are you looking for? For the character of Jon not knowing who his mother is has been very important to his development. In a lot of ways being a bastard has defined him. Jon also has to learn to except it and deal with it, it's part of his growing experience. I know it's been a long time for the fans, but Jon is only 16 and has been on his current journey for 2 years. It has a great deal of importance to his character.

What you really seem to want to know is the future. But ask yourself how would it have read if Howland Reed suddenly shows up and is like Jon your mom is such and such. What wold be his motivation to do such a thing? Or if someone like Mormont or Cersei suddenly new who his parents were and spilled in their POV? It would make no sense and not read well at all.

You have the prophecy or two prophecies actually. Maybe Jon is AA come again or maybe the Prince or maybe neither. But they are relevant and they are options. Maybe Jon is the Heir to the throne, it could be important in getting support, and the man does not have a lot of support. It may be important to the Dragons, he may end up being the last Targaryen alive, he could be a king, he could be the rightful wielder of Dawn. We don't really know. Or at least some of us except the fact that we don't really know, hey maybe it will be a life changing emotional moment, it's kind of a big deal to Jon, I would like him to know even if it does not mean he is this or that. I can't give you a 100% anything, but I can give you options. And you like the rest of unfortunates are going to have to wait for the next book, sucks don't it?

Oh, I love me some Sanka!

Anyway, I wasn't looking for anything concrete. Just trying to get the ball rolling on the topic at hand and get noodles baking.

Sure, it will be tremendously important to Jon one way or the other. I don't think there's any denying that. Being a bastard defines who he is and his actions to date. Finding out he 1) isn't one and 2) rightful heir to the Iron Throne will obviously turn all of that on it's ear. What I'm more interested in is how that will play out with the rest of the realm. It seems an awfully large plot point and tease if it just gives Jon a new outlook on life.

Also, I worry about the reliance on Howland Reed. He's almost become a Dues Ex Machina type character; kept in the wings until the appropriate time, then appears and somehow explains and ties up many loose threads and holes. I don't want to get the sense his character is referenced in the story and will be brought in eventually purely to dumb things down for the majority of us poor unfortunates. I know additional ideas for how this information comes about is bouncing around out there and I'm almost hoping it goes that way. Like, Reed finally shows and says something like "Sorry I'm late...anything interesting going on?" :)

Edit for silly emoticons

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Yes, being raised by Ned (values) was great for Jon. But I doubt there was any concern on Ned's part that he'd be raising a future Aerys junior. For one, Rhaegar displayed no signs of madness (despite some fans trying to twist the facts). Furthermore, Jon wasn't the product of Targ incest, so there was no 'roll of the dice' to worry about...

Personally I think there is textual evidence to support the theory that the otherwise highly-respected Rhaegar was suffering from Bipolar Disorder; a form of mental illness.

That being said, the Starks don't do incest and don't appear to be afflicted by madness, so there is less concern about Jon inheriting the genes that were concentrated in the incestuous Targ line. I think Ned would have protected his sister's son no matter what because he put love and family ahead of his own honor when it came to a choice.

p.s.: Sanka is an abomination to the Old Gods and the New.

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Thanks so much Alia. Yea, like so many of us, I was feeling raw after yesterday's events and I had little tolerance for what I felt at the time was unnecessary nitpicking. I don't feel that way and I apologize for any misunderstandings that this may have caused.

Totally get this. I couldn't bear to browse the forum last night, even though it's what I often do to unwind. After my brief stop on this thread I found myself wanting to scold people and decided (probably wisely) to go to bed.

Anyhow, I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread (or the recent previous iterations) but wanted to call attention to the significance in a GoT(Jon I) of Jaime wearing Targaryen colors (red and black) while Jon thinks he looks like a king ([Jaime] is what a king should look like). To me (and others) Jaime-in-Targ-colors conjures up Rhaegar.

A few posters In the Jon Chapter re-read project (come on down!) propose that this Jaime-Rhaegar parallel is intentionally made to support R+L. Consider that Jaime is never again described wearing Targ colors, only Lannister Red or KG white. Couple this fact with that it is Jon (with the mysterious parentage) who notes Jaime's colors and concludes that he is what king should look like. Even Jon's awestruck description of Jaime as he walks into the feast is similar to some of the highly romanticized descriptions of Rhaegar.

Jon: Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak.

Ned: ...the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

-- The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House

wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him.

I agree there is a definite Targ connection here and have seen Jon's fascination with it commented upon elsewhere. Of course, it's also been floated as a hint that A+J=C&J. Not sure how I feel about that, but the point about Jon stands either way. It's either a cleverly coded projection of a description of his natural father or (seven save us!) a cleverly coded actual description of his half-uncle.

Jon's awe and fascination, and the thought "what a king should look like" remain and I agree there is an almost poignant connection there.

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How so by my logic could Arya, Sansa, Bran and whoever else be crazy Targs?

Give me the proof I need to convince me that only from double Targ'ed parents crazy/unstable Targs were born, and that no one else known had any problems, even only a generation later?

Not everyone on here eats family trees for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Aegon V did not wed a Targ, and Neither did his son Jaehaerys II his only sister wed a Baratheon. He fathered Aerys II.

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Oh, I love me some Sanka!

Anyway, I wasn't looking for anything concrete. Just trying to get the ball rolling on the topic at hand and get noodles baking.

Sure, it will be tremendously important to Jon one way or the other. I don't think there's any denying that. Being a bastard defines who he is and his actions to date. Finding out he 1) isn't one and 2) rightful heir to the Iron Throne will obviously turn all of that on it's ear. What I'm more interested in is how that will play out with the rest of the realm. It seems an awfully large plot point and tease if it just gives Jon a new outlook on life.

Also, I worry about the reliance on Howland Reed. He's almost become a Dues Ex Machina type character; kept in the wings until the appropriate time, then appears and somehow explains and ties up many loose threads and holes. I don't want to get the sense his character is referenced in the story and will be brought in eventually purely to dumb things down for the majority of us poor unfortunates. I know additional ideas for how this information comes about is bouncing around out there and I'm almost hoping it goes that way. Like, Reed finally shows and says something like "Sorry I'm late...anything interesting going on?" :)

Edit for silly emoticons

Howland actually has a reason to show up now though, his kids went North. He sent them to help Bran at Winterfell, not to go off on Journey alone and unprotected. Dad is probably looking for his kids and they went North. So he is probably heading North, weather probably has slowed him down.

If he runs into Jon so be it, but he does have a reason to be there now and I doubt he wants anyone threatening Jon. It also gives Jon a reason to go beyond the wall, his Brother is beyond the wall. Not sure how he would find them though, maybe Ghost can track Summer. Or maybe Bran sends a Raven. Not sure what is going to happen, I think the Wall is about to get thinned out a lot though. You got men marching north to Mother mole, you already know a lot of the Wildlings want to head south and save Mance. And I believe we are going to get a battle at the wall.

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Aegon V did not wed a Targ, and Neither did his son Jaehaerys II his only sister wed a Baratheon. He fathered Aerys II.

Do we know that? We know Aegon V married for love; but, that doesn't mean he didn't marry the OTHER one of his sisters (Rhae) or a cousin (maybe even one of Aunt Daenerys' Dornish kids).

We DO know that Prince Duncan gave up the crown for Jenny of Oldstones (not a Targ) and that both of his brothers also married for love rather than duty. There were other Targ princesses around, even Blackfyre princesses. THAT could have made a few enemies.

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Of course, it's also been floated as a hint that A+J=C&J. Not sure how I feel about that, but the point about Jon stands either way. It's either a cleverly coded projection of a description of his natural father or (seven save us!) a cleverly coded actual description of his half-uncle.

Jon's awe and fascination, and the thought "what a king should look like" remain and I agree there is an almost poignant connection there.

You know if I was more convinced about the possibility of Jaime and Cersei being Targs I'd more readily accept that Jaime in Targ colors signifies a Lannister-Targ connection here. But I'm not especially persuaded by the ideas that replace Tywin with Aerys as the baby daddy to some or all of the Lannister children. But I can certainly see how one could make this connection.

I also wonder if Jon's admiration of Jaime may indicate how Jon will feel about Rhaegar. Or maybe not. Assuming Jon will learn the truth about his heritage, he may be profoundly conflicted about the Targaryens. It's interesting that one of Jon's heroes is the Young Dragon (Daearon); and in his play with Robb he would always pretend to be a Targ. (I want to say it's Aemon the Dragonknight but I can't find it in the pdf'd GoT I currently have open and my seven year old has my Kindle with all five novels on it!)

Anyway, I realize that I'm not saying anything new or original here. Participating in the Jon Re-read, however, has me introduced to or re-thinking about some of these layers.

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Howland actually has a reason to show up now though, his kids went North. He sent them to help Bran at Winterfell, not to go off on Journey alone and unprotected. Dad is probably looking for his kids and they went North. So he is probably heading North, weather probably has slowed him down.

If he runs into Jon so be it, but he does have a reason to be there now and I doubt he wants anyone threatening Jon. It also gives Jon a reason to go beyond the wall, his Brother is beyond the wall. Not sure how he would find them though, maybe Ghost can track Summer. Or maybe Bran sends a Raven. Not sure what is going to happen, I think the Wall is about to get thinned out a lot though. You got men marching north to Mother mole, you already know a lot of the Wildlings want to head south and save Mance. And I believe we are going to get a battle at the wall.

I know this is a little off-topic, but does Howland know the kids went north? In particular, north of the Wall? I guess there's isn't much north of Winterfell but the Wall and if they went south they would have come to him at Greywater Watch, but it's still a bit of a deductive leap. In fact, does Howland even know Bran is alive? Most of the realm and especially the North believe him dead at Theon's hands.

So Howland goes north, hits the Wall and asks about his kids, who nobody has seen. Now what? "Oh hey, Jon, while I'm here and freaking out as nobody seems to know where my kids are, let me clarify a few things for you about you...."

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I don't know how soon Howland Reed will get about to getting north. Rob sent two of his bannersfolk (the she bear and another one) to alert him to harass the Ironborn, so he might be busy for a while. I'm sure he won't figure it's time to stop, just because Robb died. BUT, that gives him two people he could feasibly tell, now that it APPEARS there are no other Stark heirs (though he knows differently) so Jon's importance has increased.

There are ALSO, feasibly, the other Kingsguard--the three who were directly guarding Lyanna were killed, but is it really safe to assume the other's had no clue that Rhaegar's 'other wife' was pregnant and THAT was why only a subset of them were sent with pregnant Rhaella and Viserys... I mean really... if they were the only royalty left, ALL the Kingsguard would have GONE--they would have had to be dim not to know there was more afoot and Barristan Selmy is not dim.

And then there is Wylla... the wet nurse...

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I don't know how soon Howland Reed will get about to getting north. Rob sent two of his bannersfolk (the she bear and another one) to alert him to harass the Ironborn, so he might be busy for a while. I'm sure he won't figure it's time to stop, just because Robb died. BUT, that gives him two people he could feasibly tell, now that it APPEARS there are no other Stark heirs (though he knows differently) so Jon's importance has increased.

There are ALSO, feasibly, the other Kingsguard--the three who were directly guarding Lyanna were killed, but is it really safe to assume the other's had no clue that Rhaegar's 'other wife' was pregnant and THAT was why only a subset of them were sent with pregnant Rhaella and Viserys... I mean really... if they were the only royalty left, ALL the Kingsguard would have GONE--they would have had to be dim not to know there was more afoot and Barristan Selmy is not dim.

And then there is Wylla... the wet nurse...

Well, three of them were at the TOJ, three of them were at the trident with Rhaegar, and Jaime was with Aerys in KL. They ultimately relied on Willem Darry to smuggle out Viserys and Daenerys, which he did. I don't think they knew or had the time to realize what exactly was happening, or they maybe even thought that the missing three (the TOJ ones) were coming to Vis and Dany.

About who reveals R+L - it's either Bran through weirwood magic, or, an interesting point you're making, if Mormont and Glover had reached Howland - they with Robb's will, and him with THE knowledge, it becomes really unpredictable...

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About who reveals R+L - it's either Bran through weirwood magic, or, an interesting point you're making, if Mormont and Glover had reached Howland - they with Robb's will, and him with THE knowledge, it becomes really unpredictable...

It could be interesting if Howland's knowledge comes out to refute the will. As in, Jon can't be legitimized as Ned's son because he's not Ned's son. I have no idea WHY he would do that (aside from it meaning, indirectly, that his own children were dead- if Bran and Rickon are dead, then his Meera and Jojen likely are believed dead too). Or it might give him cause to bring it up with Jon if he somehow makes it to the Wall (or where ever Jon will be later).

Re: Wylla. For some reason, I expect that we will never meet her. She must know, but I can't see any reason for her to comf in to the story now. Except to reveal R+L=J, but a wetnurse from Dorne really has no place in the action going on.

Unless Arya ends up in Starfall or something.

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It could be interesting if Howland's knowledge comes out to refute the will. As in, Jon can't be legitimized as Ned's son because he's not Ned's son. I have no idea WHY he would do that (aside from it meaning, indirectly, that his own children were dead- if Bran and Rickon are dead, then his Meera and Jojen likely are believed dead too). But it might be an unexpected way to reveal something expected.

True, but there comes an interesting point. If Bran, Rickon, Arya, and Sansa are believed dead, then through Howland's knowledge, Jon becomes an heir through Lyanna. And the Targs have been thrown away by conquest anyway...

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Yes, being raised by Ned (values) was great for Jon. But I doubt there was any concern on Ned's part that he'd be raising a future Aerys junior. For one, Rhaegar displayed no signs of madness (despite some fans trying to twist the facts). Furthermore, Jon wasn't the product of Targ incest, so there was no 'roll of the dice' to worry about...

Yea, I guess I don't understand/appreciate the importance of the question of whether Ned monitored Jon for signs of Targ madness. Like you say Zupoleon, there's no evidence or hints that Rhaegar was crazy, despite the insistence of so many on this forum that want to characterize his interest in prophecy as a life-governing obsession. Really, Signs and Portents or The Jade Compendium -- both potential candidates for the text that Rhaegar read as a child and had compelled him to become a warrior -- might have been the ultimate self-help book(s) for the man.

As for Ned, he has enough on his plate just with dealing with trying to raise his sister's son as his own within his own household. And while he suffered tremendous tragedy at the hands of the Mad King, I don't think Ned was well-versed in the study of Taragaryen schizophrenia being holed up North for most of his life.

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About who reveals R+L - it's either Bran through weirwood magic, or, an interesting point you're making, if Mormont and Glover had reached Howland - they with Robb's will, and him with THE knowledge, it becomes really unpredictable...

What's your opinion on the possibly of Sam as a potential conduit?

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True, but there comes an interesting point. If Bran, Rickon, Arya, and Sansa are believed dead, then through Howland's knowledge, Jon becomes an heir through Lyanna. And the Targs have been thrown away by conquest anyway...

I agree, but then why would he even say anything? Assuming Robb's will is known, that seems a lot easier- less risk of people not believing the story, less risk of reprisal from, say, Stannis, who might then try to burn Jon alive due to his king's blood... It seems a strange switch to pull, if we're talking about legitimizing Jon as heir in the North. I dunno.

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What's your opinion on the possibly of Sam as a potential conduit?

Well, I don't know if I can see how. Through some obsidian candle (magic) knowledge? I'm not sure what you mean by conduit in this sense, that Sam transfers some essential information to those parties? Sorry, I'm a bit slow today, so don't judge if I'm misunderstanding... If I'm not, please elaborate.

I agree, but then why would he even say anything? Assuming Robb's will is known, that seems a lot easier- less risk of people not believing the story, less risk of reprisal from, say, Stannis, who might then try to burn Jon alive due to his king's blood... It seems a strange switch to pull, if we're talking about legitimizing Jon as heir in the North. I dunno.

Howland will know that Jon has a dire need of support if that is the case (the Bolton ruled North, the whole Northern conspiracy if it exists and if he's into it, maybe even the Others and the AA prophecy) so he might think he might win over some of the southron pro Targ lords in Jon's cause should he reveal the truth.

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It's ALSO possible Howland Reed could let Mormont and Glover KNOW Bran and Rickon are alive, yeah? I mean if the purpose of legitimizing Jon is because Sansa is the only heir and married to Tyrion (which it was) then proof that there are more heirs changes the playing field.

And Manderly sent Davos to Skagos for Rickon.

And while it is safer to not be pronounced King to Melisandre (since she's so darned set on Stannis), I have a feeling Jon is going to dig his feet in on duty where 'legitimizing' is concerned--he wouldn't let Stannis do it, why do it for dead Robb? But knowing who both parents are might change the game. ESPECIALLY if it comes with word that Ned swore to keep Jon safe through any means necessary and THAT was why he was sent to the wall.

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I agree, but then why would he even say anything? Assuming Robb's will is known, that seems a lot easier- less risk of people not believing the story, less risk of reprisal from, say, Stannis, who might then try to burn Jon alive due to his king's blood... It seems a strange switch to pull, if we're talking about legitimizing Jon as heir in the North. I dunno.

I suppose that would depend on the sort of man Howland is. He might be very by the book in which he could not let the fraud that Jon is Ned's continue, particularly when Jon has a legitimate claim through his mother.

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