Ice and Fire animal project: Wolves

[ARYa_Nym]

But, now, after everything, I wonder is Arya capable of making her own pack again? Is she just stuck with her family, unable to progress like others? Sansa has the chance to marry, Bran have CotF, Jon the NW, and Arya will have just them. She couldn`t develop that family dynmic with gendry, HotPie, Brotherhood, I imagine she wouldn`t be able to develop it too with FM. At the end, Arya will remain bound to her family, like none of them is. And that`s why GRRM left Needle in her possession and gave her wolf dreams so far from home, in place without Godswood. It`s like telling us that no matter where she goes, her family is with her.

Well, with the FM you have no other family. It's similar to the NW in the sense that you have no other brothers only those dressed like you. In Jon's case those in black and in hers those in black and white.

Her family will have their own families or packs down the line and their own lives. I doubt she'd want to be a hanger on and not have any desires of her own. She's always said she wanted to get back to her family but she never said anything about spending her life with them.

[Mladen]

Well, with the FM you have no other family. It's similar to the NW in the sense that you have no other brothers only those dressed like you. In Jon's case those in black and in hers those in black and white.

Yes, but with chaos in NW, Jon might have the opportunity to get out of it, and start his own family, Sansa, Rickon too. Arya for me is problematic, because she is torn between Nymeria and FM, and she failed many times to create her own pack.

Her family will have their own families or packs down the line and their own lives. I doubt she'd want to be a hanger on and not have any desires of her own. She's always said she wanted to get back to her family but she never said anything about spending her life with them.

I agree with this. It`s just difficult to see where Arya is heading at the moment.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes, but with chaos in NW, Jon might have the opportunity to get out of it, and start his own family, Sansa, Rickon too. Arya for me is problematic, because she is torn between Nymeria and FM, and she failed many times to create her own pack.

Nymeria has a more stable pack but not in the sense that you're referring that Jon, Sansa, and Rickon will. Arya doesn't find it as easy to get people to follow her and be loyal to her.

She could have tried again though. Arya has had the opportunity to create a stable genuine pack of her own in Braavos. She just chose not to.That's where I said she started to shift her views after Gendry and Hot Pie left her.

[Mladen]

Nymeria has a more stable pack but not in the sense that you're referring that Jon, Sansa, and Rickon will. Arya doesn't find it as easy to get people to follow her and be loyal to her.

She could have tried again though. Arya has had the opportunity to create a stable genuine pack of her own in Braavos. She just chose not to.That's where I said she started to shift her views after Gendry and Hot Pie left her.

Interesting. I would assume as Nymeria is good with wolves, Arya is as bad with people. But, she is only a child, and she`ll grow up. Also, that entire choice of not having a pack, and satisfying with bond she has with Nymeria is a way for Arya to have a pack without dealing with people

[ARYa_Nym]

Interesting. I would assume as Nymeria is good with wolves, Arya is as bad with people. But, she is only a child, and she`ll grow up. Also, that entire choice of not having a pack, and satisfying with bond she has with Nymeria is a way for Arya to have a pack without dealing with people

She was very good with the people in Braavos so much so that the KM offered her to be Cat forever. Arya just didn't want to.

There were other options as well although they would have been less familiar to her (marry a stranger. Although she could have been potentially happier with an apprentice or seafarer than the marriage Catelyn arranged for her or definitely Ramsay).

[Mladen]

She was very good with the people in Braavos so much so that the KM offered her to be Cat forever. Arya just didn't want to.

There were other options as well although they would have been less familiar to her (marry a stranger. Although she could have been potentially happier with an apprentice or seafarer than the marriage Catelyn arranged for her or definitely Ramsay).

But, that`s the point. She chose not to be around people. She chose to pursue another goal. There are options for Arya, but it`s her choices that narrow it down, especially regarding marriages.

[ARYa_Nym]

But, that`s the point. She chose not to be around people. She chose to pursue another goal. There are options for Arya, but it`s her choices that narrow it down, especially regarding marriages.

She is around people but it's only a role. She chose not to make it into something beyond that.

[Mladen]

She is around people but it's only a role. She chose not to make it into something beyond that.

And that`s leitmotif of her storyarc. Being around people but not make it into something beyond that. With exception of her family.

[ARYa_Nym]

And that`s leitmotif of her storyarc. Being around people but not make it into something beyond that. With exception of her family.

She tried before. It wasn't her who objected but Gendry and Hot Pie.

With the FM the stakes are much more serious than just a role.

[Mladen]

She tried before. It wasn't her who objected but Gendry and Hot Pie.

With the FM the stakes are much more serious than just a role.

She tried and failed, as we said. And then she understood it was all futile. Now, she is completely concentrated on tasks with FM on daylight and on Nymeria during night. These two sides of Arya prevents her from developing something more with common men. They simply don`t understand her.

[ARYa_Nym]

She tried and failed, as we said. And then she understood it was all futile. Now, she is completely concentrated on tasks with FM on daylight and on Nymeria during night. These two sides of Arya prevents her from developing something more with common men. They simply don`t understand her.

She failed but it's not because she's bad with human beings. They didn't want to be with her. Gendry wanted to leave Hot Pie to die so Arya can't be the problem. She might be more accountable with Hot Pie since he's afraid of her on some level but he just wanted something secure and saw his current situation as better than what Arya was offering.

I would say that it's just that she didn't see the normal alternatives to being a FM as something she desired. She missed being Cat and all the friends she had but she did not want to be Cat forever.

Neither side would make her more amenable to the common man I think as they both hunt them. Nymeria's pack is actually more vicious and indiscriminate.

[Mladen]

She failed but it's not because she's bad with human beings. They didn't want to be with her. Gendry wanted to leave Hot Pie to die so Arya can't be the problem. She might be more accountable with Hot Pie since he's afraid of her on some level but he just wanted something secure and saw his current situation as better than what Arya was offering.

I would say that it's just that she didn't see the normal alternatives to being a FM as something she desired. She missed being Cat and all the friends she had but she did not want to be Cat forever.

Neither side would make her more amenable to the common man I think as they both hunt them. Nymeria's pack is actually more vicious and indiscriminate.

She isn`t as bad, as much as she is estranged a bit. She tried, but people around her didn`t want to be with her, or to see her as family. And that, with the fact she lost mother and brother at RW determined her path to FM. But now, wolf dreams are basically competing with her new reality. For being FM, or accolyte is the new reality and being Cat wasn`t enough

[ARYa_Nym]

She isn`t as bad, as much as she is estranged a bit. She tried, but people around her didn`t want to be with her, or to see her as family. And that, with the fact she lost mother and brother at RW determined her path to FM. But now, wolf dreams are basically competing with her new reality. For being FM, or accolyte is the new reality and being Cat wasn`t enough

I would say that she's just as sociable as Cat as she was as Arya Underfoot. Cat of the Canals has a family that she lives with and has made many friends. It's actually part of her role to mingle with people.

As for the FM vs. Nymeria-Both sides are killers they just have opposite views. The night wolf kills for personal gain. The FM say they only do what the MFG wishes.

I see it as separate from a human being having a normal life with a pack of their own. It's unlikely that a new pack would be okay with a bunch of wild killer wolves who hunt people and will eat your livestock. Humans have actually tried to kill them off because of the latter reason. ETA: I mean IRL not in the series in reference to the killing of wolves. Although in the books men and wolfhounds were rumored to have gone after Nymeria and her pack because she had killed a baby.

[Mladen]

So, the time has finally come. The Wolves of Westeros project will begin tomorrow with our very own Manderlay posting a first essay in the series - about Robb Stark, the young wolf. I would use this opportunity to thank all those that kindly donated valuable time to this thread, and put significant effort in writing essays for this project. I would also call everyone interested in participation to freely PM me, so we could arrange something. I hope you all will have nice and pleasent time readig our work, for, and I believe I speak in the name of all contributors, we have given our best. Thank you and enjoy.

[WinterKing]

:drool:

[Isildur's Mane]

Mladen, I would just like to take the time to say I have read your thread and the wonderfull posts by everyone involved. It is very interesting and I can't wait to read all the essasys. :)

[Alia of the knife]

I am so looking forward to the essays, and such impressive work Mladen, I'm promoting you all over the place, because I think a lot of people will enjoy this thread. :)

[Mladen]

:drool:

Mladen, I would just like to take the time to say I have read your thread and the wonderfull posts by everyone involved. It is very interesting and I can't wait to read all the essasys. :)

Thank you very much. I hope you`ll stay, read entire thing, and help us with comments and new insights.

I am so looking forward to the essays, and such impressive work Mladen, I'm promoting you all over the place, because I think a lot of people will enjoy this thread. :)

:blushing: :blushing: :blushing:

My God, I don`t know how to respond on this. Thank you, Alia. Please know I really appreciate it.

[Manderlay]

The Wolves of Westeros Project

Starks of Winterfell – Wolves of Westeros

Robb Stark “The Young Wolf”

First welcome to everyone, it is my pleasure to present this essay in a great thread created by Mladen, which has certainly caught our attention and peeked our interests. The purpose is to discuss and depict the wolf theme in the Starks. GRRM couldn’t have picked a better animal for Stark Sigil, there are some astute comparisons we can make between the Starks and wolves, the purpose of this essay is to discuss the wolf theme in Robb Stark “the Young Wolf”. I am no expert in Wolf behaviour, however I have tried my best to present this essay, also English is not my first language, excuse any grammatical mistakes. I would like all of you to post your thoughts and point out any characteristics of Robb that I have missed, please feel free to correct me if I have gotten any details wrong.

To understand better, I am going to state some commonly known wolf facts, and other material which I have gathered from various sources;

The Wolves are extremely social animals and exist in a unit called pack, this pack is usually a family group made up of animals related to each other by blood and family ties of affection and mutual aid. The core of the pack is a mated pair of wolves, an adult male and female that have bred and produced young.

The young adult wolves have their own special roles under the leadership of their parents; however some studies have shown that the younger adult males also play the role of leaders for the pups and other wolves in the pack. The young adult wolves are able to assert their dominance over their siblings and other wolves in the pack. Dominant wolves in the pack usually are more aggressive and have more forceful personalities than other wolves in the pack.

So, in general a wolf’s behaviour is directed towards asserting its own status or showing that it accepts the higher status of another wolf, though wolves certainly don’t go around constantly trying to reaffirm their place in the dominance hierarchy.

Robb Stark can be compared to a Young Wolf; the story begins in Winterfell after the prologue, the alpha male or leader of the pack is certainly Eddard Stark at that time in the story, all his children look up to him. Robb takes on the role of Lord of Winterfell in absence of his parents, now the term young wolf applies to him even more so. Robb is doing his best to be the lord of Winterfell in the absence of his parents, Bran notices the changes in his brother, all three siblings at Winterfell Robb, Bran and Rickon miss their father and mother who are the core of the pack, Robb takes on the responsibility but he doesn’t have his father and mother and he wishes they were there for him to follow their lead, especially his father. The pack is a close knit family, and they are very social animals, the stark siblings are missing their parents who form the core of the pack and also their sisters and brother, Jon which indicates just how strong the bonds of family are, just like the wolves in a pack.

Despite Robb being a Young wolf, his siblings Bran, Arya and Rickon consider Jon as their leader; however Jon is a unique wolf, Jon recalls one time when Robb and Jon are playing, Jon calls himself Lord of Winterfell and Robb asserts his dominance and corrects him as to why he can’t be the Lord of Winterfell. Jon is an alpha in his own right but he is also a unique wolf, different from the other members of the pack and doesn’t challenge Robb, as he knows his place in the hierarchy of the pack.

To emphasize just how young Robb is I am going to give a few quotes; (all page references are from Harper Voyager Paperback edition, given below are the links to page table for other editions for convenience, as finding specific chapters in the book was a pain in the neck)

http://towerofthehand.com/books/101/pages.html

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chapters_Table_of_contents#A_Clash_of_Kings

Robb has taken on the responsibility of Lord of Winterfell in the absence of his father, as the story progresses will see Robb taking on the role of Alpha as well;

“Mother what you are doing” “Rickon needs you” “Mother I need you too. I am trying but I can’t … I can’t do it all by myself.” His voice broke with sudden emotion. Catelyn III Pages 123, 124 aGoT

Robb puts on a brave face in front of his men and whenever they are not alone, however he is still very much dependant on Catelyn. As I said earlier young wolves also look after the pups and their siblings in the pack, Robb does exactly that, when Catelyn is grief stricken, he takes cares of Rickon the best way he can, also he looks to the duties and responsibilities of Winterfell. We see Robb’s dependence on Catelyn in many circumstances;

“They are men, Robb, seasoned in battle. You were fighting with wooden swords less than a year past” She saw anger in his eyes at that, but it was gone as quick as it came, and suddenly he was a boy again. “Are you … sending me back to winterfell?”

“Mother, what are we going to do? I brought this whole army together, eighteen thousand men, but I don’t … I am not certain …” Catelyn VIII Page 580 aGoT

“My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord” “but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat”

“Gods I was so scared” … Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort. Bran VI Pages 555 and 556 aGoT

Robb shows the characteristics of an Alpha when he sets his wolf upon GreatJon Umber but also at the same time he reminds us that he still is a young green boy when he speaks with Bran. In Winterfell we see that Robb does what he can for his siblings, he takes Bran out in the wolf’s wood on Dancer, he lets Rickon play in the yard with Greywind and Shaggydog and Bran does notice the changes in Robb, there are several times when Bran refers to his brother as “Robb the Lord”. Again Robb is doing the best he can under the circumstances for his siblings, as I mentioned above, the Young adult wolves take on the role of leader and look after the pups and other wolves of the pack.

We see Robb displaying he has a good mind for warfare, but is ill suited for making pacts, alliances, he never considers a marriage alliance by himself, but it is his mother who makes the arrangements with Walder Frey in order to secure their passage on the river, this can be debated that Catelyn Stark herself suggested that she would deal with Walder Frey, however I still think Robb would have been ill suited for the task. Yet we see some maturity in Robb, when he graciously accepts the terms of the alliance with the Freys. Again we see how much the Young wolf is dependent on his mother who forms the core of the pack along with Ned.

The First mistake that Robb makes after he crosses the twins due to his inexperience is giving Roose Bolton the command of the host on foot, now this has nothing to do with the battle of the Green Fork or Roose Bolton’s loyalty at that time, Robb chooses him because he needs a banner man who can face Tywin Lannister and make the appropriate decisions, however if Ned had been leading the host in place of Robb, he would not have given the command to Bolton, Ned never trusted Roose Bolton and would have kept him close to keep an eye on him. I am pointing out the difference between the Young wolf and the Alpha wolf and showing Robb’s inexperience in choosing a man his father never trusted. As I stated above the parents form the core of the pack, Robb the young wolf still looks to his mother the core of the pack for answers and shows dependence on her when his banner men are not there to see. In this decision his mother points him to Roose Bolton.

I would also like to point out the astute comparisons Mladen made in “Anatomy of Wolves” The short sightedness can be compared to Robb’s inability to see far beyond his immediate concerns, and this is apparent when Robb realizes that he is winning battles but losing the war, his colour blindness makes him blind to Tyrells and Martells, he never even considers forming alliances until it is too late.

As we know the wolves are a close knit family, since Sansa is an hostage in KL and Arya is lost, Robb is torn between his duty to his new kingdom and his duty to his sisters, initially when Robb was not made the King in the North by his bannermen and Riverlords, Robb had hoped to trade Jamie Lannister for his Father and Sisters. However after the death of Eddard Stark and after Robb is crowned he takes on the responsibility of a king, he cannot afford to trade Jaime Lannister for his sisters, he has made the Journey from an young wolf to an Alpha, an Alpha has also to consider the rest of his pack, can he afford to set lose a dangerous lion, who won’t be fooled twice. With Jaime Lannister in the field, it would not bode well for the Starks, he is an excellent warrior and leads men easily as if he was born to it, two lions which are dangerous predators can pose a severe threat to the wolves, in light of that, fighting one Lion makes more sense. Even if Robb cares for his sisters, he cannot make peace with Lannisters on their terms, he tries to, but that was only to appease his Lady mother, his terms to lannisters were such that they wouldn’t be accepted. Robb has a thirst for vengeance for the Lannisters killing their father, no matter what happens Robb will avenge the death of his father, this also gets in the way when Robb dismisses his sisters exchange for Jaime Lannister. Robb is also hurt when Catelyn basically accuses him of not caring enough for his sisters. In a way Robb was also concerned on how his bannermen would view this, if he traded Jaime for his sisters, not all of them would follow the Young Wolf as they had. We know later what happens with Rickard Karstark.

“Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It’s her brother she’ll want, as you know full well” Catelyn I ACoK Page 102

“I can’t release the Kingslayer, not even if I wanted to, My lords would never abide it” “And can unmake me just as easy”

“I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for father but …” “… but not the girls? Girls are not important enough, are they?” Robb made no answer but there was hurt in his eyes. Catelyn I ACoK page 103

As the story progresses, Robb takes on the role of Alpha, this is more apparent when he is crowned King in the North, we also notice that Robb is no longer dependant on Catelyn as he used to be, In fact Robb on several occasions tries to get rid of his mother, either by sending her back to Winterfell, or the Twins or Seagard. As an Alpha, Robb will not depend on Catelyn anymore even if she forms the core of the pack, an Alpha won’t have its authority challenged, Robb also bristles when anyone call hims a boy, he takes out his anger on Edmure as well and Catelyn, Greywind growls and bares his teeth, as we know the connection between stark siblings and their respective direwolves is strong and sometimes the wolves convey the emotions of their masters.

“Mother are you certain you will not consent to go to the Twins” He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear. Catelyn I Page 104 ACoK, also look page 103

Robb certainly makes a mistake with his marriage to Jeyen Westerling, his honor got in the way, however we still see that Robb is young, he was vulnerable after the news of his brother’s death and took comfort in a woman whose house could best give him 100 swords. However this also points to his wolf traits, once an Alpha wolf mates with a female, it stays that way and Robb does exactly that, he marrys Jeyne Westerling.

“It’s swords you need, not gentle hearts. How could you do this Robb? How could you be so … so very … young” Catelyn II Page 207 ASoS Part 1 S&S

As the wolf pack is a close knit family so are the Starks, however they are scattered, as Robb believes Bran and Rickon are dead, he forms his own pack, we see Rollam and Ser Raynald take their place, as catelyn notices;

“They are standing in the boots of those he lost”, Rollam has taken Brans place and Raynald is part Theon and part Jon Snow. Catelyn IV page 502 ASoS Part 1 S&S

In fact we see all the stark siblings try to form or form a pack of their own, and their desire to return North and home. Throughout the story we see how the Stark siblings (including Jon) miss each other, long for their family and home, wolves are the same, when a wolf is separated from a pack it also longs for its pack. They must have a pack and that is what we see the Starks do when they are separated. The Stark story has always been a story of a family, their ties to each other, their loyalty and love is highlighted throughout the series and what better animal than a wolf to portray the bonds of a close knit family. We also see that not one member of the family is happy while they are separated; all the stark children have learnt harsh lessons and have learned to survive which is also one the great ways that GRRM has depicted the wolf theme in the Starks. As we know Wolves have been hunted to near extinction but still they have survived, they are able to take on challenges like harsh conditions and still find a way to adapt to the circumstances; all the stark children have shown these traits. This has led me to believe that one day the wolves shall return to their homes in the North.

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you very much. I hope you`ll stay, read entire thing, and help us with comments and new insights.

:blushing: :blushing: :blushing:

My God, I don`t know how to respond on this. Thank you, Alia. Please know I really appreciate it.

Your quite welcome. And I provided a link to this page for someone on the R+L=J thread who was interested in Martins use of the wolf analogies.

I love animals, but, I also dislike the oversimplification of the use of the term "the wolfs blood," especially as it's used to indict Brandon and Lyanna.

I don't say they're innocent, or blameless in their fates, but more often than not the idea of "the wolfs blood" is seen as a negative whereas it's more complicated than that.

I suspect that having "dragons blood," has it's consequences as well, (not that we can measure that of course unless we look to reptile behaviors later on), but this thread is just the ticket to understanding what Martin intends in granting the wolf totem/sigil upon the Stark family as an insight into their characters.