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Roose killed Domeric ... And Barbrey Knows It


bemused

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I came to this conclusion through puzzling over Roose's seemingly odd attitude to his offspring and the reminiscences of that Mistress of Misinformation, Lady Barbrey Dustin. ( I assume this has probably come up before somewhere, but if so , I think it deserves a good rehash. )

I think Roose killed Domeric himself ,before officially recognizing Ramsay and ultimately having him legitimized . He's sure Ramsay is his son , but probably had serious doubts about Domeric. He's so nonchalant about the chances of survival that Walda's potential babies will enjoy ( slim to none ) , that I think he's perfectly satisfied with his current heir. ( Heigh ho , boy lords are the bane of any house , anyway .... Gee, thanks dad. )

Some people seem to think he'll wind up killing Ramsay , but I don't think that's his intention. Ramsay would have to force his hand by attacking him. Roose might like to see him temper his behavior somewhat ( or at least do more to hide it from public view ). But really , he just lets Ramsay do the deeds , spread the terror , while he maintains a bit of distance ,so he can deal with other lords ( forming alliances , etc.) without putting them off.

I don't know if he ordered Ramsay to seize Lady Hornwood or WF in the way he did , or merely planted the suggestion ( Ramsay likes to think the ideas are his own , and rebels against the thought that he's not in control )... Either way , I just can't think Ramsay's actions were merely serendipitous to Roose's betrayal of Robb... and there may be a personal element to Roose's apparent opportunism.

Roose says he's very sure Domeric was poisoned , although his Maester put it down to a sickness of the bowels ( tears of Lys ?).. He lays the death firmly at Ramsay's door, but I'm not so sure. Poisoning isn't really Ramsay's style , as we know it.

Ramsay's eyes and their similarity to Roose's are commented on frequently. Roose recognized them instantly when he saw baby Ramsay , and they were the reason he accepted Ramsay as his bastard.... But Domeric's physical appearance is not described. No one ever mentions his eyes. Instead , he's pictured through his accomplishments ... Notably , he rode like a Stark. Roose compares his riding to Lyanna's .. but Brandon rode the same way. Brandon was an accomplished jouster , Domeric showed promise, and good jousting relies on good riding.

Brandon Stark ( the wild wolf ) is also painted as a renowned "swordsman" where the ladies were concerned. ( See Lady Barbrey's "confession" to Theon , and speculation that Brandon might have seduced Ashara Dayne. ) ... So , would he have bedded both Ryswell sisters, Barbrey and Bethany ? Or is Barbrey misleading Theon ?... Was it always Brandon and Bethany , not Barbrey ? Did Barbrey ( who seems a very discerning , deliberate woman ) always have her sights set on Ned , not Brandon ? ...Perhaps her Brandon story is entirely manufactured to mislead Roose...In a culture that values maidenhood at marriage ( especially among nobles ) why would she not keep it secret ? Why sully her own reputation ? There was no child to expose the liaison ... Perhaps Brandon ,though wild , wasn't quite such a callous lover...

Roose says Domeric's bones rest under the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers who died while still in the cradle. How many ? Older ? younger ? What was the colour of their eyes ? ... It may have been hard to tell with Domeric, when he was very young ... Jamie thought Ned's eyes were a bit like Roose's.. (probably when Ned was giving him a cold stare ) ;)

It's often repeated that Barbrey blames Ramsay for Domeric's death , but she may actually blame Roose... And she may blame him for more than Domeric's death . Domeric died after returning to live, or spend time at the Dreadfort.. His death came 2 years before the War of the 5 Kings , by poison according to Roose.. His mother, Bethany, died 2 yrs later... the year the war began .. of "a fever ". (Whether Barbrey grieves the loss of her sister is never mentioned.)

According to the wiki , Greywater fever ( that Jojen nearly died from ) can be "treated" to cause a long ,slow ,agonizing death. Would the same be true of other fevers ? What kind of fever did Bethany die of ? How long did she suffer from it ? Did she die before Roose left or after ?

http://awoiaf.wester...xt=Search&ns0=1

We don't know who Roose's first wife was, or when and how she died. We do know Roose thinks his frequent leechings help him keep his passions under control. We don't know what prompted him to begin this practice , or if it's the result of a specific event...but I've often wondered why so little has been mentioned about Bethany .. and nothing about the first wife ...

When Robett Glover ,speaking to Davos , says Ramsay "seems a beast in human skin" and that there's evil in his blood because he's " a bastard born of rape ", we know he's drawn the wrong conclusion about the source of Ramsay's sadism . It stems from Roose.

Barbrey's coversations with Theon always stood out as a bit strange. At first I thought ,"What's she up to ?" ..then it expanded to thinking she was making sure the "right" ( not necessarily true ) stories got back to Roose & Ramsay through Theon, to cover her real political sympathies and involvement with the GNC ( which I think is very real).... But like the pink letter , "there's truth in there " too...

Her assessment of Roose seems very well observed ( unfeeling, manipulative, cunning..toying with everyone , even Ramsay..) She may well have some resentment for maesters ( Maester Walgrave may really have been pushing Rickard, and she would have been affected under any scenario ) but I'm not yet sure that stretches to all maesters.. Her resentment of Starks is well laid out , but remains incongruous in the light of her actions (unblocking crypt door, e.g.) Her truthfulness ,or lack of it, can affect a few side issues..

These are very speculative , and not entirely settled in my mind, but... maybe Brandon's story really goes :

An early fling with Bethany, who then had to be quickly married off to Roose , because Brandon's political betrothal to Cat was in the works. (Cat was twelve when they were betrothed, and Brandon might really not have been entirely enthused )... At Harrenhall , he falls hard for Ashara ( who was apparently breathtaking ), which , if he had been unengaged ,could also have been a prestigious match... Maybe he , like Robb, thought he could cancel out one engagement in favour of another, especially since Ashara had been compromised ... Regardless, either the Tullys or the Daynes would have been offended or disgraced... The Rhaegar and Lyanna elopement ( not kidnapping IMO ) would have put a stop to any such thoughts. Two broken engagements would have been more than Rickard could possibly swallow ...But maybe Brandon foolishly held out hope he could win his father over by "rescuing" Lyanna...Maybe, maybe not.

Now perhaps Brandon would have dallied with both Ryswell sisters .. but would Barbrey ,an otherwise astute seeming woman have played along? ( I can't imagine she would ever have been as silly as Lysa Tully ) Would she share tales of her deflowering in such graphic terms with ...Theon ??... Rings a bit false to me.

Ned, who was fostered out at 8 , was a true ward ( unlike Theon, who though treated as a ward within the Stark family , was still a hostage , and thus couldn't visit his real family )... It seems unlikely that Ned would not have returned to be with his family from time to time. ( At Harrenhall ,according to TKoTLT, the siblings all seem to be on very familiar terms. )... And we know it doesn't take long for a serious infatuation take hold.( see R+L) ..If Ned was Barbrey's real love interest and Brandon was Ashara's, then Ned's visits to the two women after the ToJ are poignant for different reasons than are at first understood... Why does Barbrey not remarry ?.. Without children ,the Dustin seat will pass to a Dustin relative anyway... Perhaps because, as Lady Dustin ,she can make decisions in her own right , that could avenge her nephew ( and possibly her sister )? ..If there's a "love lost" reason, it's unlikely to be over Willam Dustin, for whom she describes no deep feelings ,one way or another, and who had only been her husband for 6 months when he left for RR ...Is her last "lingering" look at Ned's statue indicative of hatred, or something else ?

Given as a mark of her trustworthiness, Roose tells Ramsay .. "Lady Barbrey is a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance. Be grateful for that. "

Those words will come back to bite him.

ETA: and where is Roose's maester , Uthor ? Is he the other resident of the Dreadfort dungeons ? Barbrey might have a grudge against him , too.

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Just something to throw out there, what if the Reek that was killed was Domeric? What if the Reek "game" is Roose's, not Ramsey's?

:bowdown: you just blow my mind! i mean we know that not all of ramsays friends are really his... roose tells reek/theon that he has spies reporting on ramsays actions.

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Just something to throw out there, what if the Reek that was killed was Domeric? What if the Reek "game" is Roose's, not Ramsey's?

That can't be , because Domeric died 2 yrs before the war of the 5 Kings....And the original Reek ( masquerading as Ramsay ) was killed well after Robb had marched south.

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Not sure. The flippant remarks about chances of survival of Fat Walda's kids are made to Reek, same way as Lady Dustin's over-the-top "IhateStarks!".

Everyone tells Reek what they want Ramsay to hear, because everyone knows he'll tell him. I think Roose tries to make Ramsay complacent, as he saw for himself that Ramsay is not that capable ruler for the North.

If I have to guess... When Ramsay tries to return from the Battle of Ice (possibly pursued by Manderly-Stannis forces after the Freys were pushed into the lake), he will find the gates shut.

And when he flees and his army mostly scatters, Roose will try to play the "I rid you of the rabid dog" move... And he will find that the North remembers.

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Not sure. The flippant remarks about chances of survival of Fat Walda's kids are made to Reek, same way as Lady Dustin's over-the-top "IhateStarks!".

Everyone tells Reek what they want Ramsay to hear, because everyone knows he'll tell him. I think Roose tries to make Ramsay complacent, as he saw for himself that Ramsay is not that capable ruler for the North.

If I have to guess... When Ramsay tries to return from the Battle of Ice (possibly pursued by Manderly-Stannis forces after the Freys were pushed into the lake), he will find the gates shut.

And when he flees and his army mostly scatters, Roose will try to play the "I rid you of the rabid dog" move... And he will find that the North remembers.

While I could easily see Roose attempting to get rid of Ramsay for no other reason than because he's Ramsay, I feel that Roose is too politically astute for that; for one, he has no Bolton heir if he does so, so he would be (potentially) willingly ending the Bolton line, which I don't see Roose as being in favor of, and secondly, from the perspective of the Northerners, the Boltons-as-Overlords is only held in place because they have married into the Starks--if Ramsay is dead, the marriage no longer exists, so the North has no reason to continue to support him. Roose would know this, and thus would attempt to keep Ramsay until at least he has a new son (who he could then wed to "Arya"?)

The only other possibility that I could see Roose contemplating is ridding himself of both Ramsay and Fat Frey, thus freeing him from that marriage and allowing himself to be free to marry "Arya", thus (possibly) giving himself a "Bolton" heir while still maintaining the Bolton-Stark marriage that is the key to his holding of the North.

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Very interesting theory and well reasoned, well done. I agree that neither of both Roose's nor Barbrey's tales can be trusted, they are way too smart for that. But they are also smart enough to mix truth with the lies, to make it hard to see the truth.

Roose's tale I think is meant to make Ramsey complacent. He wants Ramsey to think that Roose will allow him to become Lord Bolton in his own right, that any of Walda's whelps are no threat to him and not even killing them would make Roose forsake him or his claim to the Dreadfort and the North. He wants Ramsay to spend his time scheming to get rid of Roose's children by Wanda. I believe his goal here is to distract Ramsay from the real threat: Ramsay's own children. His plan (at the time) being to have Ramsay have a "hunting accident" as soon as "Arya" bears a son or possibly even a daughter. Or better yet, have "Arya" killed, blame Ramsey and shorten him by a head, possibly Theon as well, giving some form of justice to the North as well as removing everyone who knows "Arya" is not Arya and that Bran and Rickon are still alive, or so he thinks.

Barbrey's tale is more complicated. It seems weird that she shares her experience with Brandon in such a way with Theon Turncloak and I like your theory about her actual interest being Ned, even though Brandon seems to have a more fitting personality for it. It's interesting that the first thing she asks for is Ned's tomb after entering the crypts, not Brandon's, if it's true that she loved Brandon and hated Ned.

One thing I noticed though is that she says "Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon’s brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well." Presumably this means after she and her father heard of his betrothal to Catelyn Tully. This doesn't fit the timeline though. She says she was married for six months when her husband rode off with Ned. After Rickard and Brandon died in KL, Jon Arryn raised his banners and Ned had himself smuggled to White Harbor so he could go to Winterfell and raise his own banners. He married Catelyn after raising his banners, while marching south, not before. While the smuggling trip was difficult, even if it somehow took him 2-3 months to get to Winterfell, Barbrey should have been married for at least 3 months by the time Brandon died, so Catelyn cannot possibly be the reason that she did not get to marry Ned. Interestingly, she doesn't mention the 3rd son. Benjen did not join the NW untill after Robert's Rebellion and was 2nd in line to Winterfell and the North at the time and would have been a worthy match for her if her story was true (even if he was quite young) and Catelyn was why she couldn't have Ned.

Last but not least: I believe (guessing here) that the fact that she stated that she will stop Ned's bones from reaching Winterfell means that she's already got them somehow. That in the last lingering look she was actually comparing to his bones. That's why the words "Ned's likeness" are used, while in the rest of the chapter they are simply called statues.

As for Bethany, I agree it's unlikely that both of them tangled with Brandon, so let me present a third option, namely she went for the one that is always forgotten: Benjen Stark. He was the "Stark in Winterfell" during Robert's Rebellion, during which they could have easily fallen in love, or worse, cheated on Roose while she was already married. This could also tie into the reasons he had for joining the NW after Ned came back, to prevent a scandal or something, even though Ned just had Robb and the Stark lineage was far from secure. This also gives new meaning to Benjen telling Jon "You don't know what you will be giving up." if a woman was why he joined the NW.

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Interestingly, she doesn't mention the 3rd son. Benjen did not join the NW untill after Robert's Rebellion and was 2nd in line to Winterfell and the North at the time and would have been a worthy match for her if her story was true (even if he was quite young) and Catelyn was why she couldn't have Ned.

Remember: the Starks are friends of the Watch, and they see serving in the Watch as an honor and a duty; as such, it probably was commonplace for them to send third, fourth, fifth, etc. sons to the Watch to serve; it likely was always the plan that Ben was going to join the Watch, but that they were waiting for his 15th name day or something before hand--and then Brandon got killed. Ben, being a stubborn Stark, decided that he still wanted to follow his birthright as a third son (joining the Watch), so he forsook his claim to Winterfell in theory--provided that Ned came back from the Rebellion with a son. When Ned did indeed show up after the Rebellion with little Rob (and with "his bastard" son, Jon, too!) Ben knew that the succession was safe, and that he could continue to follow the path towards the Watch.

Barbrey seems to be a pretty damn intelligent person; I'm sure that she knew of this supposed tradition of the Starks sending the lesser sons to the Watch, and that Benjen was going to be sent there, and that, as a stubborn Stark, he wouldn't back away from his life-long commitment to take the Black--as such, the idea of him marrying her never crossed her mind for it was never going to be a possibility.

As to the rest, do agree on the the assessment. Just disagreeing on the Benjen parts. :cheers:

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It might be worth throwing into the mix of this discussion that we don't know for certainty that Domeric is dead. We've got Roose's statement to that effect, and his report of a now-disappeared maester's evaluation. Roose says that his bones are beneath the Dreadfort with all those other offspring and lots of other dead Boltons. I certainly don't think that this series needs yet another supposed to be dead person who's actually still alive, but it could provide another angle on Roose's apparent nonchalence about the likelihood, if not his outright manipulation to ensure, the mutual destruction of Ramsay and his Frey offspring-to-be.

But more likely is that Roose killed Domeric as part of whatever fountain-of-youth blood magic he's got going on.

Barbrey's game, though, is clearly as subtle as Roose's. That she was invested in Domeric is clear. That she saw Domeric as like Branden is also clear. I'm persuaded by Bran Vras's analysis that Barbrey is very much interested in the "game of thrones," that part of the appeal of Branden, or, if you like, Ned, is that they were players (or pieces) in this game. I do agree that Barbrey holds Roose, not Ramsay, responsible for Domeric's death, though she's also smart enough to realize that Roose is playing a bigger game. I take as sincere Roose's detachment from the "normal" preoccupation with the production of heirs.

What's interesting is that I think Roose sees the North as where the important action is at. His willingness to engage with players in the South is, I think, in service of his agenda up north. This may be what will make him win out over Barbrey in their little game, though I think that in the more immediate future Barbrey has made some canny alliances for herself at Winterfell, possibly including one with Mance. But in the end her orientation is more Andal-esque, about conventional modes of royal/lordly power, rather than the other kinds of powers that are at play (skinchanging, blood magic, weirnets, etc.).

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Ben, being a stubborn Stark, decided that he still wanted to follow his birthright as a third son (joining the Watch), so he forsook his claim to Winterfell in theory--provided that Ned came back from the Rebellion with a son. When Ned did indeed show up after the Rebellion with little Rob (and with "his bastard" son, Jon, too!) Ben knew that the succession was safe, and that he could continue to follow the path towards the Watch.

As to the rest, do agree on the the assessment. Just disagreeing on the Benjen parts. :cheers:

Well that is quite possible. Calling it his "birthright" goes a bit far, but quite possible. On the other hand, that's what they would have liked the world to think, I'm sure.

I'm glad you liked the rest though. :cheers:

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I don't think Benjen joined the watch as his 'birthright'. With only one heir and that heir being a baby seems very risky. Child mortality is a real issue and also if something happened to Ned, Rob would need a 'regent'. Surely he would hang around for a while longer or produce some children himself who could be heirs. Just seems a massive gamble taking the Black with only a baby Stark around. Love the Barbrey thoughts.

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Also, if r+l=j, and Benjen knew, that could have been reason enough for him to take the black. It's a hard secret to keep, especially when you're watching your nephew getting totally dissed by his stepmom. further, Ned may have always planned for Jon to join the NW, so Benjen could have had extra incentive to go up to the wall and warm it up for him.

Do we know who the last Stark on the wall was prior to Benjen?

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I don't think Benjen joined the watch as his 'birthright'. With only one heir and that heir being a baby seems very risky. Child mortality is a real issue and also if something happened to Ned, Rob would need a 'regent'. Surely he would hang around for a while longer or produce some children himself who could be heirs. Just seems a massive gamble taking the Black with only a baby Stark around. Love the Barbrey thoughts.

If Ned had died, Catelyn would have taken over as regent. Benjen wasn't needed.

And there were two heirs already, not one: Rob and Jon. Jon was Ned Stark's acknowledged bastard. Bastards have no place in the succession but he wouldn't have been the first bastard to inherit title and lands. Not even the first bastard to inherit Winterfell. As Benjen and Ned certainly knew.

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Also, if r+l=j, and Benjen knew, that could have been reason enough for him to take the black. It's a hard secret to keep, especially when you're watching your nephew getting totally dissed by his stepmom. further, Ned may have always planned for Jon to join the NW, so Benjen could have had extra incentive to go up to the wall and warm it up for him.

Do we know who the last Stark on the wall was prior to Benjen?

We don't, but (Heresy talk, so feel free to leave now if you're so inclined...) it seems as though just like There Must Always Be a Stark in Winterfell that there is some sort of similar connection to the Starks and the Watch--and one of the theories that we have developed over there is that the Watch needs a Stark at least in line to be Lord Commander, if not Lord Commander himself, so that once Winter does come, there is a Stark of high authority already established--which is also why the "killing" of Jon was such an awful move by those guys--Winter has come, and they just offed their Stark; they. are. fucked. This also fits in with your comment about Benjen taking the Black so as to sort of "warm it up" for Jon--he was The Stark at the Wall (while Ned was The Stark in Winterfell, of course) until Jon arrived--at which point Benjen knew he could "go out hunting till the end of winter" for there would still be a Stark at the Wall.

On the topic of Benjen taking the Black, we also need to remember a few other things: Benjen is said to have developed a strong friendship with Luwin from before he went to the Wall; we don't know how much correspondence took place between Aemon and Luwin, but I feel that, at least until Luwin went blind, he would have kept in contact at least with the Winterfell Maester (especially one so well learned and respected as Luwin seemed to be); along those lines, if Benjen knew about RLJ (assuming it is truth), he likely would have been in contact with Aemon about it before leaving for the Wall, and continuing with it while at the Wall--so maybe, along with "warming up' the Watch for Jon, he was also preparing Aemon (and possibly also Mormont? There's something fishy--well, "beary", but...--about the Mormonts; they know more than we think) for Jon.

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If I'm not mistaken, the only Stark we're told to have served as lord commander is Osrick Stark, who is said to have served 400 years before the conquest from the ages of 10-60. That's close enough in time to be a relatively plausible fact.

Further, I think we know there hasn't been a Stark LC since at least c233, as BR served from 233-283; Quorgyle from 283-289, Mormont from 289-299, and now our boy JS.

Otherwise, it's a bit of a black hole.

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