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(Book Spoilers) If Varys despises magic...


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... then what about Daenerys and her dragons, who are basically the reason magic is on the rise again? I know I'm kicking in an open door by saying Varys could simply be lying, but could this also imply his reasoning for rather supporting 'Aegon' than Daenerys later on has something to do with Daeny's dragons...?

I am not so sure that he supports Dany... I think that he supports Aegon because it is possible that he could be a Blackfyre.

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It's quite possible the initial plan was to marry Dany to Drogo to simply start a war with king Robert, hoping to destabilize the realm. It doesn't seem that Varys ever really tried to help Dany. He planted Jorah as a spy and actually carried out King Robert's assassination attempt that was only foiled because of Jorah's change of heart. Most significantly, Viserys and Dany are technically irrelevant since Aegon's claim to the throne is stronger. who cares what they do, all Aegon has to do is show up and the Dany and Viserys would have to step down.

But then the dragons were born and that was a game changer. There is no way that Illyrio would have given away dragon eggs if he thought they would hatch. Now Dany has super weapons and that changed the plan. Perhaps at this point Illyrio and Varys have a disagreement on how to proceed. From Illyrios POV, dragons only make it easier to get Aegon on the throne. He wants to send Aegon to Dany so they would marry and together they could conquer Westeros.

Meanwhile, Varys is not a fan of the return of dragons, which would keep true to his stated position of hating magic. Perhaps Varys sent Tyrion to Aegon hoping that he could prevent Aegon from joining forces with Dany. Meanwhile Varys is secretly working with the citadel to find a way to kill the dragons. Perhaps he is the one who sent Jaqan H'gar to Oldtown...

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Yes , was that in the book (books)?

Now in that case he Varys seems to be talking about the installation of the Red God as Westeros's religion , so was Varys's problem with the religion of R'hllor.

Thoros of Myr and Melisandre of Asshai have done magic , but I will be darned if see how it's connected with Danny and the dragons.

Seems some of this was being done before the dragons were even born.

Do the followers of R'hllor want to establish a theocracy?

Even in Essos where the 'Red' religion seems more popular the books have given no indication a state of religious rulers.

The Red God religion seems divided , Melisandre want's these nutball sacrifices while Thoros is not into that at all.

Then we have The Great Other which , it seems is R'hllor is to be at war with. The Coming of Winter and the Others seems seem on the road to attacking Westeros , but we don't know why the hell they want to do that.

Melisandre seems to want Stanis to be the agent who stops The Great Other.

She keeps telling him he is Azor Ahai reborn, but Azor Ahai, even tho he defeated the Others did not seem himself to be a supernatural being.

It's all very confusing.

In ADwD Dany has a very short segment where she thinks about religions and war and decides she does not want to be part of it. She in fact does not seem to be religious.

I can't figure the Illyrio-Varys thing , Illyrio seems to actually be helping Dany , while being in cahoots with Varys whose stance on Dany we really don't know. He may have passed the info that Ser Jorah used to save Dany's life from the poisoned wine.

The whole thing is confusing as hell in the books because I don't think George is really interested in religion and his 'magic lite' seem to be both connected and not connected with religion!

It's kind of amusing reading your post. It reminds of when I watch the show with my wife (a non-book reader) and she will ask me a lot of questions that I just don't have an answer for lol.

I don't recall what Varys says about the dragons in the books. But I will add that I am a book reader that gives credence to the show. I really don't think the major things will change

Varys' view may hinge on whether he knows the manner in which they were hatched. I don't know that he does and I would love a correction on that

The way I see the magic/religion thing is that magic and the supernatural is very real, but the characters assign their own labels and meanings behind them, that may or may not be correct. There may not actually be a Red God. Characters have just been able to find a way to tap into a supernatural power.

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It's quite possible the initial plan was to marry Dany to Drogo to simply start a war with king Robert, hoping to destabilize the realm. It doesn't seem that Varys ever really tried to help Dany. He planted Jorah as a spy and actually carried out King Robert's assassination attempt that was only foiled because of Jorah's change of heart. Most significantly, Viserys and Dany are technically irrelevant since Aegon's claim to the throne is stronger. who cares what they do, all Aegon has to do is show up and the Dany and Viserys would have to step down.

But then the dragons were born and that was a game changer. There is no way that Illyrio would have given away dragon eggs if he thought they would hatch. Now Dany has super weapons and that changed the plan. Perhaps at this point Illyrio and Varys have a disagreement on how to proceed. From Illyrios POV, dragons only make it easier to get Aegon on the throne. He wants to send Aegon to Dany so they would marry and together they could conquer Westeros.

Meanwhile, Varys is not a fan of the return of dragons, which would keep true to his stated position of hating magic. Perhaps Varys sent Tyrion to Aegon hoping that he could prevent Aegon from joining forces with Dany. Meanwhile Varys is secretly working with the citadel to find a way to kill the dragons. Perhaps he is the one who sent Jaqan H'gar to Oldtown...

I remain unconvinced of the arguments about dragon egg gift. Even just a precious objects, they seem excessive to me. Were they given as a test to see if she would sell them?

And if he did think they were going to hatch, how the hell would he know that?

Is Illyrio so rich that he can afford to part with 3 eggs and let the chips fall where they may?

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I remain unconvinced of the arguments about dragon egg gift. Even just a precious objects, they seem excessive to me. Were they given as a test to see if she would sell them?

And if he did think they were going to hatch, how the hell would he know that?

Is Illyrio so rich that he can afford to part with 3 eggs and let the chips fall where they may?

I'm pretty sure that the eggs were given as a way to cement his position as a supporter of the Targarian line. I know the author uses a lot of mideval europe traditions in his story. It's not uncommon for a someone giving an excessive gift to someone they see as a future ruler. Dany's marriage to Drogo certainly would give Illyrio reason to believe that one of the two siblings would one day sit on the Iron throne.

I'm pretty sure he gave the eggs as a further gift to the cause and make him a firm supporter. He never could have known they would hatch, the eggs were an investment to a future ruler. I doubt he would have given them if he felt it was possible to hatch them.

On the tennis match about Varys and his views on magic effecting his views on Dany I don't think that's the case. I'd have to agree that I think he doesn't like magicians rather than magic. It's mentioned in the extra's on the Season 2 DvD's that the Varlyrians found a way to use magic to gain command of dragons. So there is a strong link between dragons and magic.

Also, they didn't make much of a deal about it, but in the book the red comet is discussed in greater detail. It's not hard to see Varys making a connection with the red comet, sailor stories of dragons, and stories of magic coming back.

I also wonder about the magic link to the white walkers. It's just speculation but it makes me wonder why the white walkers suddenly woke up as Osha mentions to Maester Luwin in the first season. Is there a link?

White walkers awake

Dragon's return

Power of the Red Sorceress

=magics return?

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Meanwhile, Varys is not a fan of the return of dragons, which would keep true to his stated position of hating magic. Perhaps Varys sent Tyrion to Aegon hoping that he could prevent Aegon from joining forces with Dany. Meanwhile Varys is secretly working with the citadel to find a way to kill the dragons. Perhaps he is the one who sent Jaqan H'gar to Oldtown...

The faceless men have their own brand of magic. Would Varys work with them if he really hates people who practice magic?

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I've always been a bit confused as to the return of magic and the return of the dragons. Did Rh'llor play a role? The Others(they returned before the dragons did)?

The faceless men have their own brand of magic. Would Varys work with them if he really hates people who practice magic?

It's been hinted at that(book 4 spoiler)

Varys and the Faceless Men use the same spying tactics.

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The faceless men have their own brand of magic. Would Varys work with them if he really hates people who practice magic?

Has anybody read the chapter in ADwD where Arya is given her first assignment?

All the FM skills she learns are 90% non-magical, hard work , hard conditioning (going blind for a while!), absorption of a certain philosophy (actually it's hard to say the FM are actually religious , they are not monotheists*, and the many faced god is not a form of pantheism , their philosophy seems almost Zen like.

So Arya is taken to the 'Face Room' and something happens, she gets a new face.

Here the weird part, if you read closely, to other people (I don't know about the FM), she has a different face.

Yet , and it's explicit , its on the page, Arya realizes , to her perception, she still has her birth day face!

She even wonders what kind of trick this is.

I mean really , it in a paragraph , right there on the page, anyone explain that to me?

*I think George goofed in CoK when he had Jaqen mention the Red God, if Japen is a real FM , from what Arya learns later the FM have the Many Faced God as their 'icon' , I can't say they actually worship him. GRRM never went back and changed this.

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I remain unconvinced of the arguments about dragon egg gift. Even just a precious objects, they seem excessive to me. Were they given as a test to see if she would sell them?

And if he did think they were going to hatch, how the hell would he know that?

Is Illyrio so rich that he can afford to part with 3 eggs and let the chips fall where they may?

Yeah I would say Illyrio is so rich he could afford to part with the eggs.

How did he get the eggs in the first place? From whom did Illyrio get the eggs, what did they know about their nature?

For 5000 years (5000 years!) the Valyrians were hatching and mastering dragons , how the hell did they do that?

GRRM does not tell us.... so there is a chance someone with Valyrian heritage (even some of the blood of old Valyria) might hatch them , what purpose would they then serve Illyrio... part of the Illyrio-Varys conspiracy?

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Euron had a dragons egg as well, maybe they're not as rare as implied.

'Had', yeah, and he supposedly threw it in the sea, if he ever had it!

So we really don't know if he had one.

He has , gave the 'Dragon Horn' to Victarion to take to Meereen.

Euron says the horn will make him a 'dragon binder' but he does not say why he knows that.

That screwball horn may do something different.

Euron is nuttier than a five dollar fruit cake.

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I do not think it is widly known that the dragons cause magic to be more powerful.

As far as we know only the warlocks figured it out when Dany showed up on their doorstep.

Quaithee points it out to Dany mid-ACOK, when she encounters the grifter fire-mage in Qaarth, so it is known.

And since Varys deals in information he should ´know

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No idea how anyone could think you would give Dragon Egg's to someone that you expect to be killed. They are far too valuable.

Why not give her any other kind of gift and keep the eggs for Aegon?

For people like Varys and Illyrio to plot so long hard and for so long to give up something like Dragon eggs...

I think many of you take the words too literally that "they were surprised Dany and Drogo worked out" -- of course they were surprised -- doesn't meant they wanted it any other way.

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No idea how anyone could think you would give Dragon Egg's to someone that you expect to be killed. They are far too valuable.

Why not give her any other kind of gift and keep the eggs for Aegon?

For people like Varys and Illyrio to plot so long hard and for so long to give up something like Dragon eggs...

I think many of you take the words too literally that "they were surprised Dany and Drogo worked out" -- of course they were surprised -- doesn't meant they wanted it any other way.

I thought exactly the same.

Why would Varyio give Dany, whose supposed to die with the Dothraki, 3 dragon eggs.

Why would they not give such a valueable gift to the young Aegon who is supposed to reconcer Westeros.

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I believe that he despises magic, but I disagree with the opinion that the dragons are the reason why the magic is back. Rather, the dragons are back because the magic is.

Also, I agree with Greywolf that Varys might have a bigger dislike for sorcerers than magic itself.

There's always been magic in the world indeed, so I don't think the Dragons are back because of its return at all.

I think Dragons have in fact enhanced magic to some extent. Look at Thoros, likely also Melisandre. In my own crazy theory I think the dragons might've balanced the pool between "Ice magic" and "Fire magic" (the one they enhanced)

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I thought exactly the same.

Why would Varyio give Dany, whose supposed to die with the Dothraki, 3 dragon eggs.

Why would they not give such a valueable gift to the young Aegon who is supposed to reconcer Westeros.

It's just a case of overthinking things [which these books obviously give us no choice but to do]

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'Had', yeah, and he supposedly threw it in the sea, if he ever had it!

So we really don't know if he had one.

He has , gave the 'Dragon Horn' to Victarion to take to Meereen.

Euron says the horn will make him a 'dragon binder' but he does not say why he knows that.

That screwball horn may do something different.

Euron is nuttier than a five dollar fruit cake.

If you go back as fr as The Hedge Knight series -- Dragon Eggs were a lot easier to come by it would seem -- and clearly at least some additional eggs are probably squirreled away here and there.

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*I think George goofed in CoK when he had Jaqen mention the Red God, if Japen is a real FM , from what Arya learns later the FM have the Many Faced God as their 'icon' , I can't say they actually worship him. GRRM never went back and changed this.

I don't have an answer for your question, but I think the reason Jaqen uses the red god in this instance is that Arya saves them from a death by fire. So maybe not a mistake.

As far as giving the dragon eggs to Dany, I think they gave them to Dany hoping she would hatch them. They did not give her the eggs knowing she could hatch them, rather it was a gamble they were taking. I think this is reflected in Illyrio saying he thought Dany would die out there. He didn't want her to die, he just thought it was a really long shot that their plans would work out.

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