Heresy 52

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 52, this week’s edition of the thread that looks below the surface of the Song of Ice and Fire.

It is (still) Heresy because here we question the easy assumptions (amongst others) that the Others are evil incarnate, that Children of the Forest will teach Bran Stark how to defeat them, that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, and will ride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name.

Instead, drawing on the wealth of textual clues, Easter eggs and cookies, we look at the mythological sources which underpin the magic in the story, especially around and beyond the Wall, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Welsh Mabinogion, the Irish Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others, to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn, Herne the Hunter and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and exhibiting three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone.

A major influence in leading heretics down the primrose path to these sources and characters was a reference by GRRM to the Others as being like the Sidhe made of ice:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That Sidhe reference is not only apposite since what is known of the Others’ behaviour certainly corresponds to Faerie legend portraying them as beautiful but cruel, given to hunting maidens through the woods and to taking human children as changelings, per Craster’s sons, but its also significant that GRRM describes them as being made of Ice, because that exactly mirrors what we’ve discovered in comparing closely the Mel POV and Victarion POVs and Tyrion’s observations of Moqorro, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh, exactly equal to and opposite those of Ice – the Others and their mysterious symbols.

And then there’s the Wall, not at all unlike the Bifrost bridge in the Norse Eddas, and which we have come to believe is not a defensive structure at all but the boundary between the realms of men (which the Watch are sworn to protect) and the Faerie realms beyond, linked by the magic portal under the Nightfort. In Ragnarok the bridge is broken and likewise we suspect that the magic Wall must come down to achieve a resolution and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else.

In doing that, Jon (apparently soon to be found being pursued alone through a forest near you) seems destined to be King of Winter, while Danaerys Targaryen, once tipped as his partner, may have to venture into the hell of Valyria to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.wester...4200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

"You ever meet a man with 99 sons?"

[Mace Cooterian]

"You ever meet a man with 99 sons?"

Whether or not Craster had 99 son's, in my opinion, does not quantify how many potential WW'ers are floating around out there. Unless of course the WW'ers have an expiration date and evaporate without being replinished, or whatever it is that Craster's son's provide (blood magic, life force, etc.).

Since we know that WW'ers have been around for awhile, it would be of importance to know if they have a life span. Craster may/may not have 99 son's; but what of those that preceeded Craster with their own sacrifices?

[tbc]

Has anybody previously noted the similarities between Dany's wanderings and the Odyssey? After AGoT, she's stuck at the other end of the world, with few companions, little power, and a "destiny" to fulfil across the world. I can't help but feel that a visit to Valyria, a la Aeneas in the Underworld, would be consistent with mythological type.

[redriver]

Episode 304 was utterly brilliant,probably the best since Baelor in S1,imo.From a Heresy perspective,nothing to rock the boat here.

Though 99 sons was more male output than I'd expected!There was nothing about sons returning but that could yet happen.

What I'm expecting in future episodes..

We see a White Walker in previews,which appears to be moving through the same wooded terrain as that surrounding Craster's,no doubt tracking Sam and Gilly,looking for it's brother.And from what I gather from the synopses we meet Coldhands,who looks seriously old.So I'm expecting Sam the Slayer and a line from Gilly connecting the Others to Craster's sons.This will probably be blended with the Coldhands rescue.Though I'm not sure we're going to see a murder of ravens.I hope we do!

[Bluemangosteen]

Craster's is sounding like a Masonic Lodge.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Oh I absolutely see it in this quote. I don't think it's easy to dismiss that GRRM is going out of his way to say that he's Bran's Monster. As in Bran controls him. How long has Bran been in control of him? How can Bran be in control of him without even knowing it? I think the answer is he is obviously working outside of just his little boy self in this timeline we've been reading about.

I'm thinking Bran is the Last Greenseer and out of the Last Greenseer and 3EC that Bran is the most powerful as the Last Greenseer. Through the weirwoods he has been repeatedly reliving events in an attempt to change future events. So he has been planting little nuggets through the years. He is Bran The Builder, who is an amalgamated legend of several Brandon's and their achievements. There have been many Brandon Starks down the years. This theory allows Bran to be all of them. Some people think he planted the direwolf pups. Maybe he also stashed the dragonglass instead of Benjen? Doubtful but maybe there's other things he's done. The 3EC is either Bran (making him both) or one of his instruments. Am I wrong in thinking the 3EC and the Last Greenseer may be seperate? If Bran is both then they're obviously not completely seperate.

Something I forgot to add to this last night:

If Bran is the Last Greenseer, where is he? I'm thinking he is under something like the First Weirwood up in the LOAW. I'm thinking when he looks into the Heart of Winter in AGOT he sees himself, thousands of years old on an icy weirwood throne.

[Profion]

Monster is the 99th son... There is 98 brothers out there... Jon Snow is the 998th LC... There is something in there or just coincidence?

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'm really hooked on this plot issue too. If Bran is 3EC / Last Greenseer that sounds pretty ominous :( Does that therefore mean this story ends with Bran? I can't help but notice the similarity the Weirwoods have to certain people too. If the Weirwood in Winterfell represents Bran - is the Blackwood tree Bloodraven? Is Whitetree some ancient Giant Greenseer? While it appears greenseers can look through all types of trees etc... are the Weirwoods important because they are an 'anchor in time'? Representing the furthest point back in time a greenseer can go to 'influence' events. I also tend to dwell on the book line "how could there be knights before there were knights?" along with the Maesters very convincing arguments that the timelines are wrong and these legends that Old Nans speaks of, never happened. A simple yet complex answer to this might be: The Long Night and the Age of Heroes has not happened yet... But it will happen now in Brans lifetime therefore giving him cause to go back to the formation of his house - when they adopted the Old Gods with a sacrifice (that Bran seemingly witnesses in his last vision of Winterfell) and start to move his pieces around for whatever purpose e.g. save the world, save his house, ensure right king on throne, etc... so I believe it is possible that the legends and histories that old nan tells are actually not 'past' but 'future' events and weirdly enough the stories that Bran tells come full circle back to him thanks to Old Nan. A singers truth is a different sort of truth is it not? Passed from future back to past to future... to avoid the time paradox of Bran not coming into existence he gave a message to the founding Stark of Winterfell ... "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" - obviously this doesn't matter now Bran has been born but only the ancient houses of the first men who are strong with the old gods would appreciate this fact - hence why Bale the Bard 'helps out' - because they know if the Stark line ends - Bran will not be born and he won't be able to do what he is doing now i.e saving the world :) "the north remembers"

I think that it how the ending will be bittersweet. We learn Bran is reliving past events to change something in the future. Maybe the original event he tried to change was Ned's execution and he in GRRM fashion he end's up making things worse. Maybe the story ends with him saving Sansa's direwolf Lady. Or Robb or Catelyn. But he's never able to save his father Ned.

I'm really not sure what to think of your idea yet, but you could be onto something.

[Bear Claw]

I think that it how the ending will be bittersweet. We learn Bran is reliving past events to change something in the future. Maybe the original event he tried to change was Ned's execution and he in GRRM fashion he end's up making things worse. Maybe the story ends with him saving Sansa's direwolf Lady. Or Robb or Catelyn. But he's never able to save his father Ned.

I'm really not sure what to think of your idea yet, but you could be onto something.

Do you think Bran only has influence over past events in Westoros? Could he be changing events in Essos too?

[Efilnikufesin]

Do you think Bran only has influence over past events in Westoros? Could he be changing events in Essos too?

I believe the case would be that we have already seen Bran's influence all along, and though he may have tried to change the past, it may not always work the way he might want it to. Possibly why the Starks hold the Old Gods dear, is that it is the presence of one of their own that they feel, and indirectly the North as a whole.

Couple of spitballs off the top of my head:

1- Could he be Bran the builder? Not by being the actual person, but by his ability to influence others (in dreams etc.) into the building of the Wall and Storm's End?

2- Could he have influenced Torrhen Stark to kneel before Aegon the conquerer rather than lead his forces into the same doomed fate of the other westeros families that tried to oppose?

Edit: grammar.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Do you think Bran only has influence over past events in Westoros? Could he be changing events in Essos too?

Maybe he can, but there doesn't seem to be any weirwoods there. Maybe he can't influence events in Essos, so he really isn't all powerful and this is one of the major flaws keeping him from being able to get the outcome he wants.

[Bear Claw]

Maybe he can, but there doesn't seem to be any weirwoods there. Maybe he can't influence events in Essos, so he really isn't all powerful and this is one of the major flaws keeping him from being able to get the outcome he wants.

I don't think it really counts, but there is a weirwood door in the House of Black and White. Arya feels it is watching her. ( I thought it was funny how she said. "Let me in stupid!". Just what a kid would say to her little brother) On an earlier post there was talk of Bran sending the wolves to the Starks. Could he have sent Jaquen to Arya?

[Efilnikufesin]

I don't think it really counts, but there is a weirwood door in the House of Black and White. Arya feels it is watching her. ( I thought it was funny how she said. "Let me in stupid!". Just what a kid would say to her little brother) On an earlier post there was talk of Bran sending the wolves to the Starks. Could he have sent Jaquen to Arya?

Good catch, almost sounds like when Bran looks back through the weirwood and sees Lyanna saying the same to Benjen when fighting with sticks.

[Black Wolf Smith]

episode 304

"I've had 99 sons" Craster

If that is true then it would be more WW than we had previously thought and I wonder if the number 99 is significant. Also this would mean there were a similar amount of daughters but there are not that many in either the books or show. That phrase from Craster was likely important in regards to the endgame and was inserted by the showrunners for some reason. Still trying to figure out if Monster is the 99th son or is he 100.

On another note during a reread of AFFC I noticed that Nymeria arrived in Dorne 1000 years ago (Arianna III?, when she is in tower) which would align in the timeline with many significant events that occured in the north that have been discussed here. Not sure if her peoples arrival is connected but I figured I would point it out.

3x33? 3 is one of the most powerful numbers in magic, and 9 is often use a 3x3 perfect,perfection. 99 is just expands on that.

As the hand said there is a lot of things that happend 1,000 years ago. too much in fact. Either it is a catch all "that happened 1,000 years ago" or it was a really busy year in the north.

I guess something is wrong on the site, as many things were off tonight.

[Black Crow]

Do you think Bran only has influence over past events in Westoros? Could he be changing events in Essos too?

I'm very wary of him manipulating past events in Westeros let alone Essos because here we're straying into god-like powers, the very thing GRRM has re-assured us we're not going to get.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'm very wary of him manipulating past events in Westeros let alone Essos because here we're straying into god-like powers, the very thing GRRM has re-assured us we're not going to get.

Is it still god-like if it's severely flawed?

[Black Crow]

Episode 304 was utterly brilliant,probably the best since Baelor in S1,imo.From a Heresy perspective,nothing to rock the boat here.

Though 99 sons was more male output than I'd expected! There was nothing about sons returning but that could yet happen.

Oh agreed and thrice agreed on the episode, I rather thought the early ones in this series were a bit flat but this one was stonkingly good.

As to Craster, well yes 99 sons does sound a little bit of a stretch, but the point is that he's completely overturning the notion that his sons are a nuisance that he's disposing of before they grow up to eat him out of house and home and challenge his authority. He's glorying in having so many and speaking of them in the present tense... he has those sons and as I say, next week is going to be interesting given that Dolorous Ed and Grenn are still at Craster's place, and Rast is doubtless going to get his come-uppance.

[Black Crow]

Is it still god-like if it's severely flawed?

Yes, because what is the point of all the various characters good, bad and indifferent variously going about their lawful occasions, fighting, plotting, conspiring, doing their best and doing their worst if its all for naught because a dead man (or Bran) in a tree is changing the past and manipulating the future.

[bbstark]

I have a question for the Eddas experts on here... do any of you know if the real and beautiful phenomenon of the aurora borealis was the inspiration for the Bifrost? As such, the Bifrost is celestial, and the Wall "extends into the heavens" (or something like that, can't exactly remember what Tyrion described it as)

Also, while reading about the Norse gods, I came across Freyr, or Frey, which was a god asociated with virility :D loll

I think our Frey has quite a bit of evidence of his virility, no? :lol:

(ok, trying to keep up this time... )