Why did Sansa marry Tyrion.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Sansa had to flee, but the Tyrells couldn't kindnapped her themselves or their alliance with the Lannister would fall apart

that's where Petyr enters, he's in league with the Tyrells, of course he doesn't care about them, he just sees profits in certains alliances, he uses people

Sansa had to marry Tyrion and the Tyrells couldn't do anything because it was short time notice

[brashcandy]

Even Theon thinks that Jeyne has a choice of sorts while marrying Ramsay. Sansa usually goes for the safest opinion. I think that if she caused a scene she could have at least postponed the marriage, and maybe Tyrells would would have found a way to ship her from KL.

And maybe pigs will fly too? The only thing Sansa would have secured for herself would have been a savage beating and even more humiliation. I'd also like some evidence of her taking the 'safest opinion'.

The risk was high though (even if I don't think the punishment would have been more than a beating - they needed her) So as in most cases she did as she'd been told. I wonder if she regretted the choice later. Towards the end of her marriage to Tyrion she considers suicide, so it might have been worth to risk firs time around...

There would have been no way for the Tyrells to get Sansa out of the city once the Lannisters had declared their intentions. That's why Olenna only broached the subject once again when they were about to frame Tyrion for Joff's murder. Reread the chapter where Sansa is beaten by the KG in the throne room if you need a refresher on why she would fear such violence again.What Sansa decides is to keep her dignity and to endure being married into a hated family that has killed hers; there's nothing easy or safe about that.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

What choice Jeyne had?

she was taken by LF, probably to a brothel and was transformed into a whore

and she was forced to go north and marry Ramsay

there was no choice at all

[Ice Turtle]

And maybe pigs will fly too? The only thing Sansa would have secured for herself would have been a savage beating and even more humiliation. I'd also like some evidence of her taking the 'safest opinion'."

Pigs don't fly, people rebel and disobey even if the risk is death or beating. Jon did it when he refused to kill that old man near the Queenscrown, Jorah refused to cooperate when he was enslaved, Margary called Cersei bitch while imprisoned, Alys Karstark refused to go along with forced marriage, Thistle scratched out her own eyes in effort to get rid of Varamyr.

Wrong word I meant "safer option, but I think you understand what I've meant. For Sansa humiliation, beating and most probably endangering her life was worse than becoming a Lanniser. She decided not to risk.

There would have been no way for the Tyrells to get Sansa out of the city once the Lannisters had declared their intentions. That's why Olenna only broached the subject once again when they were about to frame Tyrion for Joff's murder. Reread the chapter where Sansa is beaten by the KG in the throne room if you need a refresher on why she would fear such violence again.What Sansa decides is to keep her dignity and to endure being married into a hated family that has killed hers; there's nothing easy or safe about that.

Because there was no way for Arya or Varys, or Hound after he deserted or for Littlefinger, right? I'm not saying that they would have surely done it, but saying that there was no way is simply wrong. Besides if they knew about it Tyrells could have objected against the marriage.

Being married to an enemy is much much worse than causing a public scene or being humiliated. I can understand that she didn't want to risk her life, but if she went along just to be a perfect lady in any situation than her choice deserves pity for what her upbringing done to her and not admiration.

[Ice Turtle]

What choice Jeyne had?

She raised her eyes to his. Brown eyes, not grey. Are all of them so blind? For a long moment she did not speak, but those eyes were begging. This is your chance, he thought. Tell them. Tell them now. Shout out your name before them all, tell them that you are not Arya Stark, let all the north hear how you were made to play this part. It would mean her death, of course, and his own as well, but Ramsay in his wroth might kill them quickly. The old gods of the north might grant them that small boon.

It was choice between two much worse options that in Sansa's case, bu there still was.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

She raised her eyes to his. Brown eyes, not grey. Are all of them so blind? For a long moment she did not speak, but those eyes were begging. This is your chance, he thought. Tell them. Tell them now. Shout out your name before them all, tell them that you are not Arya Stark, let all the north hear how you were made to play this part. It would mean her death, of course, and his own as well, but Ramsay in his wroth might kill them quickly. The old gods of the north might grant them that small boon.

It was choice between two much worse options that in Sansa's case, bu there still was.

They are aware she's not Arya, everyone, they are just pretending to fool the other, she could said she was not Arya, but the Boltons would probably said she's lying in order to not marry Ramsay

[brashcandy]

Pigs don't fly, people rebel and disobey even if the risk is death or beating. Jon did it when he refused to kill that old man near the Queenscrown, Jorah refused to cooperate when he was enslaved, Margary called Cersei bitch while imprisoned, Alys Karstark refused to go along with forced marriage, Thistle scratched out her own eyes in effort to get rid of Varamyr.

Wrong word I meant "safer option, but I think you understand what I've meant. For Sansa humiliation, beating and most probably endangering her life was worse than becoming a Lanniser. She decided not to risk.

Because there was no way for Arya or Varys, or Hound after he deserted or for Littlefinger, right? I'm not saying that they would have surely done it, but saying that there was no way is simply wrong. Besides if they knew about it Tyrells could have objected against the marriage.

Being married to an enemy is much much worse than causing a public scene or being humiliated. I can understand that she didn't want to risk her life, but if she went along just to be a perfect lady in any situation than her choice deserves pity for what her upbringing done to her and not admiration.

This 'perfect lady'claim is nonsensical. Are you trying to assert that choosing to act with dignity in a situation where one has no choice is an act to be pitied? Sansa considered rebelling, but was made to quickly realise that it would be ultimately pointless. Just like Arya realised that becoming a mouse or a sheep might be best, until she could later have some agency as a ghost. It is actually the Kettleback's reminder of the Starks being wolves that makes her decide to go along with the wedding for the record. The pertinent thing to grasp in all of this is that Sansa never relented in the way the Lannisters would have truly wanted. She keeps her resolve to escape and never plays the perfect wife Tyrion wanted. That takes strength and courage, but some people are just blind to that.

And again, the Tyrells could not have objected to the wedding at that point. What sense would it make when the Lannisters had undermined them already? Indeed that was the entire reason why Tywin moves quietly, so they cannot object.

[Ice Turtle]

This...

The point is that she had a choice. Even if options weren't good. Her choosing "dignity" meant that she choose not to protest. When Arya choose not to rebel at Harrenhal she wasn't choosing to becoming a mouse permanently but marriage is for life. As I said I understand to do this to save one's life but not to safe one's public image or to fulfill social expectations which is part of Sansa's motivation you seem to be highlighting.

Kettleblack didn't care one bit if Sansa was brave, he told her what he told her to make her play along.

I think that Tyrells could have objected if they had known of the wedding beforehand. That is the reason why Tywin was keeping it a secret. And if the wedding had been interrupted that day, they most probably would have heard about it.

[brashcandy]

Did Arya know that her situation wouldn't be for life? As I recall, she was trying - just like Sansa - to find someone who could help her. You seem to be forgetting that Sansa had absolutely no prior knowledge of the wedding. She was ambushed on the day itself and threatened with violence if she did not comply. She knew the Tyrion marriage might have removed the option to go with the Tyrells, but she still keeps to the plan with Dontos. The Tyrells could not have known beforehand considering that Sansa herself was in the dark, and even if she had objected to the wedding then, they would still have been powerless to remove her from Lannister power. And whether or not Kettleback was merely saying what he had to, it doesn't negate the fact that Sansa was able to draw stength from his words, and it certainly contradicts your claim that she was choosing to submit meekly.

[The Storm King]

the high septon at the time was in the lannister's pocket as well. things might have been different if it were the high sparrow perhaps

[Ice Turtle]

Did Arya know that her situation wouldn't be for life? As I recall, she was trying - just like Sansa - to find someone who could help her. You seem to be forgetting that Sansa had absolutely no prior knowledge of the wedding. She was ambushed on the day itself and threatened with violence if she did not comply. She knew the Tyrion marriage might have removed the option to go with the Tyrells, but she still keeps to the plan with Dontos. The Tyrells could not have known beforehand considering that Sansa herself was in the dark, and even if she had objected to the wedding then, they would still have been powerless to remove her from Lannister power. And whether or not Kettleback was merely saying what he had to, it doesn't negate the fact that Sansa was able to draw stength from his words, and it certainly contradicts your claim that she was choosing to submit meekly.

Pretending to be someone else is rarely for a lifetime, marriage in Westeros is. Arya was able to leave Harranhal Sansa is still in fact Lady Lannister.

I don't really care either way, and I don't think it's a point of our argument but are you able to find any quote about Sansa trying to find anyone who would save her? Dontos came to her, Tyrells came to her, Hound came to her, Littlefinger came to her without Sansa intentionally planning anything, she hadn't considered any of them as a possible saviors before they approached her first.

What Sansa not knowing about if beforehand has anything do with anything? We are talking about how she reacted once she learned about it and she had enough time to decide to protest or not.

She returned to the plan, she had abandoned it when she agreed to marry Willas. Besides she never thinks about Dontos' plan during whole wedding episode, we never even have her POV to know if it's really her who tried to continue with it. Telling that she married Tyrion with Davos' plan in mind is rather stretching it.

Qentyn was able to drawn strength from a thought that in stories princes always survive...

Sansa choose to submit because it was a choice that granted her most safety.

[brashcandy]

Pretending to be someone else is rarely for a lifetime, marriage in Westeros is. Arya was able to leave Harranhal Sansa is still in fact Lady Lannister.

Arya spent her time in on the road with the Lannisters and in Harrenhal being terrified and afraid. She is deeply disturbed by her own meekness and lack of power in that situation. Tell Theon or anyone else whose very identity is subjected to an assault that it's "rarely for a lifetime." Marriages in Westeros can be annulled, one's husband/wife might die, or both partners could agree to live their lives separately, but you're free to adopt the Stannis Baratheon line of attack if you think it helps your argument.

I don't really care either way, and I don't think it's a point of our argument but are you able to find any quote about Sansa trying to find anyone who would save her? Dontos came to her, Tyrells came to her, Hound came to her, Littlefinger came to her without Sansa intentionally planning anything, she hadn't considered any of them as a possible saviors before they approached her first.

Sansa was in an environment where absolutely no one spoke to her or was encouraged to associate with her. It may not be obvious to readers, but she's completely alone for a lot of her time there, seen as a traitor's daughter and shunned by the nobles in the Red Keep. Her maids are spies for Cersei and she's guarded everywhere she goes, outside of the godswood. Watch the tv show if you can't be bothered to consult the books. If she was going to receive any help, it had to come to her. But it's arguable that it was due to Sansa's own personality and her actions that enabled her to secure the help in the first place, especially with the Hound. And even though LF was behind the Dontos plot, he still felt in debt to her because she had saved his life.

What Sansa not knowing about if beforehand has anything do with anything? We are talking about how she reacted once she learned about it and she had enough time to decide to protest or not.

I brought it up because your entire argument was predicated on her somehow doing something to prevent the marriage from happening. You claimed she didn't rebel, as though she knew with weeks in advance and simply sat back and accepted her fate. Again for clarity: she is ambushed on the day of the wedding; tricked into the wedding dress and marched to the sept. Her one "choice" if you want to call it that is between Lancel and Tyrion, and you yourself admit that Tyrion did not even have the power to grant this. Once Sansa learned about the wedding she protests and tries to run. Cersei tells her she can cry and make a spectacle of herself but she will be wedded and bedded all the same. If you don't even want to credit clear cut textual evidence then there's nothing left for me to say.

She returned to the plan, she had abandoned it when she agreed to marry Willas.

Your point?

Besides she never thinks about Dontos' plan during whole wedding episode, we never even have her POV to know if it's really her who tried to continue with it. Telling that she married Tyrion with Davos' plan in mind is rather stretching it.

She continued going to the godswood did she not? We see in Tyrion's POV that she lies to him at dinner in order to meet with Dontos, so I'd say that at least indicates some agreement on her part to continue with the escape plan.

Qentyn was able to drawn strength from a thought that in stories princes always survive...

Sansa choose to submit because it was a choice that granted her most safety.

Staying with the Lannisters granted her most safety? If that was true then she would have given up on Dontos's plot and stayed with Tyrion. What Sansa chooses to do on the day of her wedding is to act sensibly and with maturity. She understood that the Lannisters had won for the time being and she could either be beaten, shamed and married, or just married. She refuses to bow to Tyrion and showed that her feelings count too. Trying to undermine that with flimsy arguments about Sansa choosing safety, when it's clear that she could never feel safe with these people just confirms that you're not capable of crediting her character with anything. And I have no idea what your point is about Quentyn. Last time I checked, Sansa is still alive.

[Buried Treasure]

Considering that the Lannisters married Tyrek to Lady Ermasande - a babe who cannot even talk - I'm pretty sure they would have counted Sansa as wed even if she'd refused to say the words. All she was doing was retaining a little dignity and saving herself a beating.

[Eating My Wings]

Considering that the Lannisters married Tyrek to Lady Ermasande - a babe who cannot even talk - I'm pretty sure they would have counted Sansa as wed even if she'd refused to say the words. All she was doing was retaining a little dignity and saving herself a beating.

They're like a plague.

[Ice Turtle]

Arya spent her time in on the road with the Lannisters and in Harrenhal being terrified and afraid. She is deeply disturbed by her own meekness and lack of power in that situation. Tell Theon or anyone else whose very identity is subjected to an assault that it's "rarely for a lifetime." Marriages in Westeros can be annulled, one's husband/wife might die, or both partners could agree to live their lives separately, but you're free to adopt the Stannis Baratheon line of attack if you think it helps your argument.

Really aside of heavy plot armor what are chances of that marriage being annulled? Long term psychological consequences hardly figure in child's decision making, becoming Lannister is clear as day even to twelve years old, Arya chose her new identity and then changed it, Theon did neither. Their situations aren't that similar.

Sansa was in an environment where absolutely no one spoke to her or was encouraged to associate with her. It may not be obvious to readers, but she's completely alone for a lot of her time there, seen as a traitor's daughter and shunned by the nobles in the Red Keep. Her maids are spies for Cersei and she's guarded everywhere she goes, outside of the godswood. Watch the tv show if you can't be bothered to consult the books. If she was going to receive any help, it had to come to her. But it's arguable that it was due to Sansa's own personality and her actions that enabled her to secure the help in the first place, especially with the Hound. And even though LF was behind the Dontos plot, he still felt in debt to her because she had saved his life.

I prefer books, thank you very much, you should stop insulting people because they disagree with you, but you probably can't be bothered with that. The argument wasn't about what Sansa done, or could have done, but what she was trying to achieve. You implied that Sansa was "trying to find someone to help her" she was kind to some people but there was no plan behind it.

She continued going to the godswood did she not? We see in Tyrion's POV that she lies to him at dinner in order to meet with Dontos, so I'd say that at least indicates some agreement on her part to continue with the escape plan.

Agreement yes, initiative to return to the plan no.

Staying with the Lannisters granted her most safety? If that was true then she would have given up on Dontos's plot and stayed with Tyrion. What Sansa chooses to do on the day of her wedding is to act sensibly and with maturity. She understood that the Lannisters had won for the time being and she could either be beaten, shamed and married, or just married. She refuses to bow to Tyrion and showed that her feelings count too. Trying to undermine that with flimsy arguments about Sansa choosing safety, when it's clear that she could never feel safe with these people just confirms that you're not capable of crediting her character with anything. And I have no idea what your point is about Quentyn. Last time I checked, Sansa is still alive.

She had two choices, continue to scream and protest no matter the consequences or obey. Obeying was safer. I am capable of crediting her but I refuse to worship every Sansa's deed, especially if I see it as normal reaction of scared girl and not some great manifest.

[brashcandy]

Really aside of heavy plot armor what are chances of that marriage being annulled? Long term psychological consequences hardly figure in child's decision making, becoming Lannister is clear as day even to twelve years old, Arya chose her new identity and then changed it, Theon did neither. Their situations aren't that similar.

Heavy plot armour? You mean a marriage that was forced, unconsummated, and that LF is convinced will not derail his plans? Not to mention the obvious lack of desire on Sansa's part for her husband. Right... I wasn't trying to draw a strict parallel between the two, merely to highlight that your argument was profoundly flawed. Sansa could very well have her marriage annulled in TWOW, or she and Tyrion could agree to live apart. Actual identity issues are not so simple to resolve though; Sansa was only a Lannister in name.

I prefer books, thank you very much, you should stop insulting people because they disagree with you, but you probably can't be bothered with that. The argument wasn't about what Sansa done, or could have done, but what she was trying to achieve. You implied that Sansa was "trying to find someone to help her" she was kind to some people but there was no plan behind it.

Insult? When did I insult you? You have yet to acknowledge textual evidence in this conversation so I was merely suggesting that a visual medium might work better. My apologies if I caused offence. Yes, Sansa was trying to find someone to help her. She didn't have anyone to reach out to, but it doesn't mean she wasn't interested in receiving such help. Hence why she took the risk and travelled to the godswood when she got the note. Again: textual evidence helps.

She had two choices, continue to scream and protest no matter the consequences or obey. Obeying was safer. I am capable of crediting her but I refuse to worship every Sansa's deed, especially if I see it as normal reaction of scared girl and not some great manifest.

Well you're free to see it how you want. What you're not free to do is to ignore textual evidence because you find it inconvenient, especially if you want to formulate an argument. Do you think screaming and continuing to protest would have achieved tangible benefits for Sansa? If you think so, then we may as well stop this back and forth right now. Seems to me like you're set on insisting that Sansa could have done something to avoid being married to Tyrion or another Lannister, and if that's the case, there's nothing more I can say here.

[Faint]

Cersei Lannister already provided a very succinct explanation for why Sansa had no choice in this matter within the pages of the story. I see no reason to doubt her words on this or why it would be such a point of contention here.

[Ice Turtle]

...

Your opinion about text is not textual evidence.

I think that she could have done something, I said nothing about "tangible benefits" her chances of success would be small bu not nonexistent, but you are right in one thing I'm putting stop to this, this debate leads nowhere.

[Techelles]

True love, of course.

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

Sansa is married to Tyrion because she is Sansa.

She is a noble ewe. She goes along to get along. Would Arya have married Tyrion? No. Would Arya have lain herself naked in front of Tyrion and his boner? No. Would Sansa have run if she was the one with Syrio when the guards came to get her? No. She was on board with the Lannister program, and now she's on board with the Littlefinger program. By the time she was getting dressed for the wedding, her bed was already made. She couldn't have done anything about it then. Who made that bed? Sansa did.