R+L=J v.48

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think Jon is gonna be king. Also, I don't think he will accept it if he has the opportunity to take it

I still believe Dany will be queen but Jon will help her (along with someone else) to get her throne back, and he's gonna have some important position in the end, if he doesn't die once and for all

He will fight the others, and he is the prince that was promised, but won't be king

I actually agree that Jon won't be king, at least, he won't be the king on the Iron Throne. Having said that, I see no good reason for him to help Dany get it, either.

[Swan Targ]

I actually agree that Jon won't be king, at least, he won't be the king on the Iron Throne. Having said that, I see no good reason for him to help Dany get it, either.

I don't think it will be out of nowhere. I believe some things will happen (and it began already) that it will lead to that, also him finding out his Targaryen parentage and maybe being a legitimate child.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't think Jon is gonna be king. Also, I don't think he will accept it if he has the opportunity to take it

I still believe Dany will be queen but Jon will help her (along with someone else) to get her throne back, and he's gonna have some important position in the end, if he doesn't die once and for all

He will fight the others, and he is the prince that was promised, but won't be king

I don't think he ends up on the Iron Throne or rather I don't want him to, because frankly I don't believe the Iron Throne will end up being nearly as prestigious of a prize at the end of the series as it was in the beginning. But I would literally bet the house at this point that he ends up as King of the North. I don't see Dany ending this story with a happy ending, nor do I see Jon helping her take the throne he might swoop one of her dragons from her though which I think would seriously piss Dany off! Haha but in all seriousness the only way I see Jon getting invloved with any business that invloves the Iron Throne is if whoever is sitting on the Iron Throne tries to seriously threaten the Independence of the North which I believe Jon will hold dominion over at some point.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't think it will be out of nowhere. I believe some things will happen (and it begun already) that it will lead to that, also him finding out his Targaryen parentage and maybe being a legitimate child.

Don't count out Young Griff/Aegon/Faegon Blackfyre either though. GRRM has made it clear this will be a bitter sweet ending, and I could totally see him ending the story with Young Griff defeating Dany and sitting on the Irone Throne as a secrete Blackfyre or whoever he really is, with Varys "power" speech being played again at the end, representing the underlying theme of how you truly win the "game of thrones" at least as far as the battle for the Iron Throne goes...

[Swan Targ]

Don't count out Young Griff/Aegon/Faegon Blackfyre either though. GRRM has made it clear this will be a bitter sweet ending, and I could totally see him ending the story with Young Griff defeating Dany and sitting on the Irone Throne as a secrete Blackfyre, with Varys "power" speech being played again at the end, representing the underlying theme of how you truly win the "game of thrones" at least as far as the battle for the Iron Throne goes...

Oh wow, I will kill him.

And I don't think that kid is Rhaegar's son.

[Jon Icefyre]

Oh wow, I will kill him.

And I don't think that kid is Rhaegar's son.

Hahaha your initial wow response was hilarious! :lmao:

I don't think he's Rhaegar's son either, but for some reason I still like him.

[Old-Growth]

Once more into the breach! I agree that he will not help Dany to the Iron Throne, but only because it will turn out the other way around, and she will not give him a choice in the matter. (I assume, as per GRRM's hint that Jon is still alive, and also that she will make Aegon for the "mummer's dragon" as she understands that term.)

[Jon Icefyre]

Once more into the breach! I agree that he will not help Dany to the Iron Throne, but only because it will turn out the other way around, and she will not give him a choice in the matter. (I assume, as per GRRM's hint that Jon is still alive, and also that she will make Aegon for the "mummer's dragon" as she understands that term.)

Interesting, can you further explain that?

[Targaryen_Rubies]

It's not Aemon twisting the prophetic materials, but rather you. He knows more about it than we do, given that we have only the two bits that Melisandre has thus far chosen to offer up.

Anyway had he believed that Jon is Rhaegar's son it would not have changed his conclusion upon learning about the dragons. "The dragons prove it" he says to Samwell, and where are Jon's dragons? And he, though aware of the metaphorical use of "dragon" in his house, is not going to twist the prophecy by taking metaphorical dragons for real ones, the which I suspect is what you are doing, whence my opening remark.

There is another clue in the vision of Rhaegar in the HotU in which Rhaegar mention's the phrase "His Is the song of Ice and Fire."

We know that Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the prince that was promised and for Rhaegar to apply this to Aegon would mean that Rhaegar believed ice and fire applied to the prophecy, how he found this and why he believes this is unknown, but there is one instance where one person dreams of ice and fire and that is Jon; he is armored in ice and fire is his sword. Some people take Jon's dream to be foreshadowing of AAR but I think this is foreshadowing of PtwP. Feel free to disagree since I'm simply trying to fit pieces together.

[Old-Growth]

Jon Icefyre:

Actually that was meant to be a response to Apple Martini.

Be that as it may, Martin has gathered the pieces in Meereen, once Marwyn arrives there, for the meaning of the "blue flower in a chink in a wall of ice" to be revealed. Whether our author will assemble the pieces then remains to be seen. Nonetheless, Marwyn can prompt Ser Jorah or Dany herself to recall that vision from the HOTU by recounting what Samwell told him about the danger at the Wall (Moqorro, if present will say "So that's what her task as AAR is"). Barristan will be reminded about the wreath of winter roses at Harrenhall once he hears about that, and Tyrion will follow the "wall of ice" to a certain young man of his acquaintance who knows not who his mother was. He will not fail to see the connection to Robert in Lord Eddard's silence about the matter.

Once Dany knows that she has a choice between two young men either of whom, it will now appear, might be Rhaegar's son, she will lean towards Jon despite the obvious obstacle posed by his oath to the night's watch. That is the point about the mummer's dragon read either way: either Aegon is a cloth dragon on poles (Dany's known current understanding of the term) or he is Varys' creature and as such highly suspect both from Quaithe's warning and from Ser Barristan's point to her about Varys being part of what caused her father's rule to go wrong.

Finally either that was a miscarriage out in the Dothraki sea or Marwyn learned enough from Mirri Maz Duur in exchange for teaching her the healing of the citadel to put right what Mirri marred, or it will prove a combination of both.

The upshot is that the restoration of her House and dynasty will now appear likely, and I think that she will be willing to push Jon very hard indeed to bring that about. The relationship is like to prove contentious, but I think that the other part of that vision about the flower emanating a sweetness means that Dany at least will feel that her choice was the right one. Or perhaps she will take a liking to the "Lord's Kiss" :)

Of course one of her other two dragons must accept Jon as its rider (assuming that this matter is not just more mis-lore from Viserys) and there will no doubt be a mess of other qualifications I need to make to make this speculation fly :(

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

There is another clue in the vision of Rhaegar in the HotU in which Rhaegar mention's the phrase "His Is the song of Ice and Fire."

We know that Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the prince that was promised and for Rhaegar to apply this to Aegon would mean that Rhaegar believed ice and fire applied to the prophecy, how he found this and why he believes this is unknown, but there is one instance where one person dreams of ice and fire and that is Jon; he is armored in ice and fire is his sword. Some people take Jon's dream to be foreshadowing of AAR but I think this is foreshadowing of PtwP. Feel free to disagree since I'm simply trying to fit pieces together.

I agree about Jon's actual dream of ice and fire but admit I have always been puzzled by that aspect of the HotU vision. What on earth would make Rhaegar connect Aegon with Ice and Fire?

What I really wanted to say is- awesome avatar!! Love that kitten :)

[Alia of the knife]

Unless it is a tale, (a song /saga ) of the struggle between Ice and Fire.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

I agree about Jon's actual dream of ice and fire but admit I have always been puzzled by that aspect of the HotU vision. What on earth would make Rhaegar connect Aegon with Ice and Fire?

What I really wanted to say is- awesome avatar!! Love that kitten :)

Thanks. The avatar is of Skippy Jon Jones from a really cute children's book. As for Rhaegar I couldn't guess. Although I wonder if he told Aemon about it?

[Ser Creighton]

There is another clue in the vision of Rhaegar in the HotU in which Rhaegar mention's the phrase "His Is the song of Ice and Fire."

We know that Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the prince that was promised and for Rhaegar to apply this to Aegon would mean that Rhaegar believed ice and fire applied to the prophecy, how he found this and why he believes this is unknown, but there is one instance where one person dreams of ice and fire and that is Jon; he is armored in ice and fire is his sword. Some people take Jon's dream to be foreshadowing of AAR but I think this is foreshadowing of PtwP. Feel free to disagree since I'm simply trying to fit pieces together.

The full quote is "he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Rhaegar associates the Quote with the prince who he believes is Aegon. The prince is confirmed as AA come again. AA is fire sword wielding warrior who challenges the Others, that is fire and ice.

Jon is not Ice and fire, in no way does being from the north or the sigil of the dire wolf represent ice. The dire wolf is a war blooded mammal who likes to stay warm like the rest of us. The others are far and away the most symbolic representation of Ice in the series. Fire and Ice don't mix, then never mix, they destroy eachother, they are opposites in every way. I doubt anyone is Ice and fire, rather it is a tale sung about AA and the Others. Which would seem to make more sense in the context Rhaegar used it.

[FrozenFire3]

As far as Romulus and Remus parallels, maybe he'll end up killing or at least waging a war with (F)Aegon, the man/boy who will be commonly perceived to be his brother.

Very interesting observation. Funny enough, in a most received version of the legend (Livy's 'History of Rome', Book 1), Remus criticises and belittles the new wall, and in a final insult to the new city and its founder alike, he leaps over it. Romulus kills him, saying "So perish every one that shall hereafter leap over my wall." ;)

[Ser Creighton]

Unless it is a tale, (a song /saga ) of the struggle between Ice and Fire.

Well isn't that what bards do? The sing songs that are tales? To bad there are no bards in Westeros, because that would make a lot of sense. Oh wait, Westeros is loaded with Bards sining tales. So it makes a lot of sense that a song is a tale or story put to music. No can't be, it's to easy, it must be a trap. Ok yes great chess players love to get you second guessing so they can perform obvious moves. But it's not like Martin was a chess player or has anyone second guessing anything. It's not like he did exactly that, and even gave you an example in the books of exactly how to do that when Tyrion is playing Cyvasse. I mean what author would make you second guess everything, then give you an obvious truth, but you can't trust him so how can it be the truth? You know why Martin kills off characters like Drogo and Ned Stark? It's not just an element of the story, it's a sarifice to get the readers thinking, "what won't he do?" He wants you to believe he is unpredictable, so when he does do something obvious you are to affraid to trust it. But when you go back and look at it again, it's always obvious. He tells you what he is going to do all the time, he just makes you second guess it.

I don't see a single thing wrong with what you are thinking about it being a tale. The question is do you trust what you are thinking? Do you see anything wrong with the logic if you break it down? Reread that part in Kings, does it make more sense if Rhaegar is indeed speaking about a tale involving AA and the Others (Fire and Ice), or does it make any sense that he thinks Aegon is the joint union of Ice and Fire. Why would he think that about Aegon and why would that be a good union? What exactly would that do for anyone dealing with the Others? Fire would seem helpful against them, Ice on the Other hand kind of plays to their strengths.

Rhaegar is not speaking of Jon when he says it, he points out it is Aegon. So he does not seem to think it is a union, how could he? Aegon is suppose to be the Prince/AA and we know that story. The relationship between Ice and fire we are given in the books is AA vs. the Others. That was not a happy get together. I sometimes wonder if people see the word "song" and think this must be some happy union. Songs are not always good things, or happy things. They can be sad and angry, about war and death.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thanks. The avatar is of Skippy Jon Jones from a really cute children's book. As for Rhaegar I couldn't guess. Although I wonder if he told Aemon about it?

Lol- I'm a huge Skippyjon Jones fan :)

Since Rhaegar and Aemon communicated about the prophecy, I'm sure he knew most of the details.

@Ser C- do you mean that Jon Snow's Northern heritage is unimportant to the prophecy? That the mother of the child was of no particular importance? I'm curious because that's what bugs me about the vision. What made Rhaegar think TPtWP was Aegon and then evidently change his mind in very short order? Really only two possibilities IMO: he found new information regarding the prophecy or he found out that Aegon was not his son.

Eta- I understand about the song element you mention above and I'm not blindly assuming it means "union." But I have always assumed that if the first option above is true, then the new information that came to light after Aegon's birth concerned the mother of the child.

[Macklunkey]

Surely there would be a Septon somewhere who would know about R&L getting married?

Or a Maester who helped with the birth/pregnancy?

[King of Winters]

Surely there would be a Septon somewhere who would know about R&L getting married?

Or a Maester who helped with the birth/pregnancy?

Rhaegar and Lyanna could have gotten married in front of a Wierwood tree and not used a Septon. And I think that maybe Wylla could have helped Lyanna with the pregnancy.

[Macklunkey]

Rhaegar and Lyanna could have gotten married in front of a Wierwood tree and not used a Septon. And I think that maybe Wylla could have helped Lyanna with the pregnancy.

Convenient I suppose. Plus most witnesses being dead. Need Howland Reed's input.