[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[freetickles]

I know that many people are of the opinion that Loras jumping into bed with a squire amounts to character assassination. I don't really see it that way - it's been months since Renly died and I see this as just a rebound that doesn't need to take away from his love for Renly. He'll still have chances to show his devotion to Renly, such as confronting Brienne when she shows up in KL.

The one thing I could see is criticism that this perpetuates stereotypes of gay men being willing to jump into bed with anyone who strikes their fancy. But, I think it was handled well and doesn't necessarily suggest that any more than the heterosexual men jumping into bed with women who strike their fancy.... and practically all of them but Jaime have show the propensity to do that.

[Ser Frank Haven]

it does show the Stereotype, and tells the TV viewer that 1) Loras is a lusty lad that will have sex with anyone 2) Renly's death was eh

[Mammothsbane]

It's character assassination insofar as

"once the sun has set, no candle can replace it."

He seemed pretty happy with that candle squire

[juanml82]

He mourns Renly, but that doesn't mean he took a chastity vow. Life goes on.

[Lady Lu]

It is a pretty common reaction to believe you will never love again when you lose the one you love, especially for someone of such a tender age as Loras. Most people do eventually move on, and I think showing Loras finding enjoyment with someone else just makes him human.

[Shadow on the Wall]

Loras didn't really have a character to assassinate imo.

[Baratheon3508]

I don't have a problem with him jumping into bed with someone- he's 17 and of course he still has a sex drive.

BUT I think they handled it really really badly. Would it have taken so much to show Loras' grief for Renly here- we could of had a poignant line or even just a couple of sad glances. Anything to show that this guy is not emotionally over Renly.

It bothered me that he seemed really chill about it all and so light hearted. They could have shown it as more of a desperate rebound sort of thing, or Loras reliving his experiences with Renly. And it upset me that he was so loose tounged about his family and their plots- that is very out of character I would say.

Loras didn't really have a character to assassinate imo.

Even if we accept Loras as not being overly fleshed out- the one thing we do know for sure is that he had a strong devotion to Renly and that he greatly mourned his death. Would it have been so hard for the show to respect this? Such a shame as Renly and Loras are shown in season 1 and 2 to be one of the few functional emotionally healthy couples. And I think Loras' playful flirty attitude in this scene undermined that

[TheDarkOne]

I had no problem with the scene, thought it was fine.

[Shadow on the Wall]

Even if we accept Loras as not being overly fleshed out- the one thing we do know for sure is that he had a strong devotion to Renly and that he greatly mourned his death. Would it have been so hard for the show to respect this? Such a shame as Renly and Loras are shown in season 1 and 2 to be one of the few functional emotionally healthy couples. And I think Loras' playful flirty attitude in this scene undermined that

We barely know anything about Loras. And if Tywin can 'uncharacteristically' bed whores, I'm sure Loras can bed a man too.

From what we know, Tywin loved his wife and Loras loved Renly. Having sex with other partners after their deaths is in no way character assassination though as we have no knowledge of the inner turmoil in their minds.

[Baratheon3508]

The sex wasn't the problem, it was how god damn cheerful Loras was in that scene. He wasn't even that happy in his scenes with Renly last season

[LordStoneheart]

I won't say it was bad if we get some sort of Margaery confrontation later about him being quite free with his interests and he says something about grieving for Renly. But I do think his Candle line from the books suggests he was if not chaste than at least hesitant to try anything with any other man. He should've been less eager.

Also, I would like to say that Margaery and Loras are played perfectly in my opinion as Tyrells. Margaery's scenes where she's the chipper, orphan loving queen is done so well, and her added scenes of her scheming is perfect. Loras could be a bit sadder but also I think it fits in well to hide he had a relationship with Renly.

[Frumpus]

Loras didn't really have a character to assassinate imo.

This.

People are making a bigger deal out of Loras than they remember. He's hardly noticeable in the books. He is more prominent on the show. They changed his character to reflect that. Big deal.

[jarl the climber]

I know that many people are of the opinion that Loras jumping into bed with a squire amounts to character assassination. I don't really see it that way - it's been months since Renly died and I see this as just a rebound that doesn't need to take away from his love for Renly. He'll still have chances to show his devotion to Renly, such as confronting Brienne when she shows up in KL.

The one thing I could see is criticism that this perpetuates stereotypes of gay men being willing to jump into bed with anyone who strikes their fancy. But, I think it was handled well and doesn't necessarily suggest that any more than the heterosexual men jumping into bed with women who strike their fancy.... and practically all of them but Jaime have show the propensity to do that.

It different because just 2 or 3 percent of men are gay and the society they are in does have some tolerance but it also expects discretion. So its not as easy to find a partner if you are gay and it takes a certain amount of courage to approcah someone. Having this fellow act more innocent and get Loras to bed him as a sympathetic act would have been more understandable as far as his feelings about Renly goes. On a practical level Joff told Marge that he abhored homosexuals and you figure she would have told him to be careful. And like Tywin was saying the marriage to Sansa was a plot, so you figure he would have been warned to keep his mouth shut about getting married. I can live with it but it was not well thought out.

[Ran]

I hate how people jump to the "not much of a character" thing. There is plenty of it for Lora's -- he's one of the more fleshed-out non-pov characters in the series, in fact. The idea of Renly dying months ago doesn't really wash, as the Loras at the end of ASoS is still absolutely devoted to the memory of Renly. It's really a rather demeaning change, and I can't help but think that somewhere, someone suggested it'd be good to get some full frontal male nudity into the episode so that people stop complaining.

Beyond this, I would have thought it would have worked much better if Loras approached it In a very tentative way, a slow, cautious attempt to see if he can rebound, and he discovers he really can't. But That's not what we get.

Also, his spilling the beans to someone he doesn't know all because of a bit of time in bed is just silly. For whatever reason, they were forced to rush this. It feels like they only resolved how to get Sansa married to Tyrion through Littlefinger's machinations quite late.

[ShigellaSand]

I really wish they hadn't cut that scene last season, with him fingering the rent in Dead!Renly's armor and Margaery telling him he needed to focus on those who still needed him. It would've informed this Loras better.

That said, I don't mind Loras getting laid. He's not proclaiming his undying love for this Olyvar, after all. People process their grief differently, and sex is not so unusual as a tool.

[oakenhelm]

I would love a correction here, but iirc, the "candle" comment was specifically in response to Tyrion prying Loras about marrying a woman. I'm not seeing why Loras having casual sex is in conflict with his answer

[Masha]

I agree. Loras was shallow but likeable character in the book. His major redeeming quality was his love and devotion for Renly. I got a feeling from the books that he stayed faithful to Renly long after Renly's death and was not playing around. He seemed more obsessed with glory and glorious death in battle than random flings.

Also, it seemed that they used Loras as blabbermouth in order to make Sansa look better than she is. (In the books she is the one who blabbs to Dantos about Tyrells' plot to marry her off - and he reports directly to LF. Here she never tells anyone. Same as in first season where she brought Ned's letter to Cersei, in show she never did)

[KoishNoish]

Loras didn't really have a character to assassinate imo.

I'm with you on that. Although I know that Loras loved Renly it has been months since Renly bit the dust. Some people move on, others don't. In the books he didn't, in the show he did. Maybe it'll come back to Renly when Brienne appears in King's Landing (which it should) but for the main part I didn't much care forLoras moving on. it made the plot continue.

[StannisandDaeny]

Loras didn't really have a character to assassinate imo.

Lol, exactly. Even if it did, at least it finally made Petyr look smarter!

He mourns Renly, but that doesn't mean he took a chastity vow. Life goes on.

This!

Loras killed a couple of his sworn brothers out of frustration when Renly died, as the QoT would say he's just a brainless dolt with a sword imo.

[freetickles]

I hate how people jump to the "not much of a character" thing. There is plenty of it for Lora's -- he's one of the more fleshed-out non-pov characters in the series, in fact. The idea of Renly dying months ago doesn't really wash, as the Loras at the end of ASoS is still absolutely devoted to the memory of Renly. It's really a rather demeaning change, and I can't help but think that somewhere, someone suggested it'd be good to get some full frontal male nudity into the episode so that people stop complaining.

Beyond this, I would have thought it would have worked much better if Loras approached it In a very tentative way, a slow, cautious attempt to see if he can rebound, and he discovers he really can't. But That's not what we get.

Also, his spilling the beans to someone he doesn't know all because of a bit of time in bed is just silly. For whatever reason, they were forced to rush this. It feels like they only resolved how to get Sansa married to Tyrion through Littlefinger's machinations quite late.

Though I don't agree that this plot point was character assassination, I agree that Loras has a lot of character in the books. I also agree they could have made it more believable and truer to his character by having him approach it more tentatively, but I think of it as a minor quibble and don't think that amounts to character assassination.

I do agree that his spilling the beans so quickly is a bit silly, but I also think he doesn't quite realize what political impact news of his marriage will have and wouldn't imagine that the Lannisters would try to subvert it, and I don't think that's inconsistent with his character in the books. He's a strong character who's devoted to his house and to Renly, but I don't consider him a strong player of the game.