[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[Sun]

No such thing. Loras didn't have much of a character in the books, tbh. We can basically project on him what we wish. Show Loras' actions this ep are completely in accord with what I'd expect to see from a boy/man in his late teens/early twenties (gay or hetro), imo. Also, just because he had sex with someone, doesn't mean he stopped loving, or mourning, Renly.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I posted this in the other Loras thread:

I found it stereotypical and one-dimensional to be honest. I mean this kind of thing was forward thinking in the late 90s but come on. Closet gay dude is an insatiable slut. OK.

Could have gleaned info from Loras over, you know, a conversation instead of edgy-for-20-years-ago-naked-bum-cheeks-with-sunlight-dancing-off-them-man-love.

Edit: on the same token gratuitous T&A is old hat too but I'll be damned if they mess with my god of T&W. So I guess turnabout is fair play...

[Loras]

I'm actually getting fed up of the phrase "character assassination" being thrown about at the moment.

First it was Catelyn, then Stannis, now Loras... who next?

I thought it was fine in the context of the show. I haven't felt Loras' undying love towards Renly coming across in the adaptation and therefore it doesn't really bother me.

I also don't think that Loras came across as giddy in this scene, but more nervous.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

I would love a correction here, but iirc, the "candle" comment was specifically in response to Tyrion prying Loras about marrying a woman. I'm not seeing why Loras having casual sex is in conflict with his answer

With the Red Keep so crowded, Tyrion could not hope to go unnoticed. Ser Balon Swann stood guard on the door, and Ser Loras Tyrell on the drawbridge. He stopped to exchange pleasantries with both of them. It was strange to see the Knight of Flowers all in white when before he had always been as colorful as a rainbow. "How old are you, Ser Loras?" Tyrion asked him.

"Seventeen, my lord."

Seventeen, and beautiful, and already a legend. Half the girls in the Seven Kingdoms want to bed him, and all the boys want to be him. "If you will pardon my asking, ser—why would anyone choose to join the Kingsguard at seventeen?"

"Prince Aemon the Dragonknight took his vows at seventeen," Ser Loras said, "and your brother Jaime was younger still."

"I know their reasons. What are yours? The honor of serving beside such paragons as Meryn Trant and Boros Blount?" He gave the boy a mocking grin. "To guard the king's life, you surrender your own. You give up your lands and titles, give up hope of marriage, children . . . "

"House Tyrell continues through my brothers," Ser Loras said. "It is not necessary for a third son to wed, or breed."

"Not necessary, but some find it pleasant. What of love?"

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it."

"Is that from a song?" Tyrion cocked his head, smiling. "Yes, you are seventeen, I see that now."

Ser Loras tensed. "Do you mock me?"

A prickly lad. "No. If I've given offense, forgive me. I had my own love once, and we had a song as well." I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He bid Ser Loras a good evening and went on his way.

Note that Tyrion says "love". He doesn't say woman's love, just "love". Loras gave his answer based on the question "What of love?". I think the escene was extremely out of character.

My problem is not that Loras fucked someone else, but that he seemed quite happy, playful and talked to much, for being with a complete extranger, and Renly dying not so long ago. I think he sould've been more sorrowful and bitter, and with more grieve during the escene.

[Ran]

You have a character who is defined by certain traits:

Martial courage

Gloryhounding

Courtliness

Youthful arrogance

Devotion to a lover

Then you throw one of those away. And it's the one thing that's actually really sympathetic about the character, and makes him easier to grasp as someone who has real virtues, despite his flaws.

I call that a character assassination.

Here's another character, Jaime Lannister. What defines him?

Martial courage

Arrogance

Devotion to a lover

A troubled past

Maiming

And then you throw away the troubled past, the thing that makes him most sympathetic -- if we didn't have a hint that Jaime was more complicated, would we care quite so much if he were maimed, I wonder? Is Jaime even half so interesting without the sense that life took him down a dark path?

Same thing, really, in my opinion. Jaime without that bathtub scene and the sense that the kingslaying as a definitive act that has colored his whole life is not really a very interesting character. Loras Tyrell without devotion to Renly, without some sense of grief dogging him still, is not really a very interesting character, either.

[Penguin king]

Robert was dedicated to Lyanna right until the end, but that didn't stop him from sleeping with all the pretty young women he could get his hands on. Hell he was whoring all through the war to rescue her.

I admit it's a bit of a change to Loras's character, but calling it "character assassination" or a "gay stereotype" is a bit much.

[Ran]

Loras is not Robert. Robert has different failings than Loras. It's apples and oranges there.

Oh, and lets put this another way, this idea that it's been so long that it's okay if Loras is getting over it...

Why is no one rolling their eyes at Brienne still grieving about Renly and saying she ought to be over it? It's the same damned thing, and she wasn't even his lover! The show's decision actually paints Loras in quite the terrible light because there's a literal point of contrast between these characters, where you have this example of the "good" Brienne still feeling that grief, and the "bad" Loras seeming to have just gotten over it. It's not even mentioned anymore, is it, and so far as I know, they didn't take the opportunity to have Loras really suggest any reservations about his marriage or his feelings for Renly in what may well be the only private scene we get with him this season.

[Loras]

You have a character who is defined by certain traits:

Martial courage

Gloryhounding

Courtliness

Youthful arrogance

Devotion to a lover

Then you throw one of those away. And it's the one thing that's actually sympathetic about the character.

I call that a character assassination.

Here's another character, Jaime Lannister. What defines him?

Martial courage

Arrogance

Devotion to a lover

A troubled past

Maiming

And then you throw away the troubled past, the thing that makes him most sympathetic. Is Jaime even half so interesting?

Same thing, really.

The thing is though that Loras is not the same character from the books. Does expanding Margaery's role constitute character assassination too? That doesn't happen the same way in the books. Brienne has killed a number of people on the show - without showing remorse, yet that isn't referred to as character assassination either.

In the context of the TV show, we aren't really given the impression of Loras' devotion to Renly. You could even read their scene in 'The Lion and the Wolf' as manipulation if you wanted to.

Would I have liked it if Loras was as loyal as he was in the books? Of course I would.

But it does work in the context of the TV show.

It just feels that the phrase "character assassination" has become the new buzzword for the show. Which frankly, it shouldn't be.

[Sun]

Having sex with another man does not throw away Loras' devotion to Renly. Renly is dead. Would it really be more believable for a healthy young man in his prime to spend the rest of his life celibate because he lost his love at 22 years old? Frankly no. It's melodrama and it wasn't believable in the books either.

[The Killer Snark]

I assume they did this to make the character a bit more sympathetic. After his spectacular first appearance in the books, he is almost like a parody of Ivanhoe, a bit of a dull, over-cocky prig. Book Loras would not have discussed the marriage secrets so readily, but that's a minor nit.

[Penguin king]

Loras is not Robert. Robert has different failings than Loras. It's apples and oranges there.

I know that. I'm not saying that it's something book Loras would do, I'm just saying that It's still possible to love someone whoe's died (or the idea ofthem atleast) without being celibate all your life.

The scene changes Loras's character a little, but it doesn't make his love for Renly any less true.

[ShigellaSand]

Loras having a casual romp =/= Loras having forgotten Renly.

I would like to see him remember and mention Renly more, sure. But until then, I'm willing to wait. Maybe see how he reacts when Brienne arrives in KL.

[teemo]

I talked to someone who read the books last night and told them my dislike for the scene, feeling like it was a gay stereotype and out of character for Loras and their response was, "Gay men jump into bed with anyone. It makes sense. I thought it was good writing." Huge fight ensues.

[freetickles]

Loras is not Robert. Robert has different failings than Loras. It's apples and oranges there.

Oh, and lets put this another way, this idea that it's been so long that it's okay if Loras is getting over it...

Why is no one rolling their eyes at Brienne still grieving about Renly and saying she ought to be over it? It's the same damned thing, and she wasn't even his lover!

It's also apples and oranges to say that because it's understandable Loras COULD be over Renly, it's not understandable that Brienne is actually NOT over Renly.... regardless of who actually was Renly's lover. As I think we all know, (a) people's feelings toward a person aren't necessarily tied to how that person feels toward them in return, and (B) people grieve in different ways and on different timeframes.

[Lord Flashheart]

Having Loras sleep with a woman would be character assassination. This? Big whoop.

[Ran]

Robert hardly knew Lyanna, though. He's devoted not to her, but to his image of her, and everyone knew it wasn't in Robert's character for devotion to equal faithfulness.

It's pretty clear that Loras's was. Removing that for a casual romp simply so they can get some male nudity and a rather dunderheaded Loras moment is silly.

[Sun]

Loras is not Robert. Robert has different failings than Loras. It's apples and oranges there.

Oh, and lets put this another way, this idea that it's been so long that it's okay if Loras is getting over it...

Why is no one rolling their eyes at Brienne still grieving about Renly and saying she ought to be over it? It's the same damned thing, and she wasn't even his lover! The show's decision actually paints Loras in quite the terrible light because there's a literal point of contrast between these characters, where you have this example of the "good" Brienne still feeling that grief, and the "bad" Loras seeming to have just gotten over it. It's not even mentioned anymore, is it, and so far as I know, they didn't take the opportunity to have Loras really suggest any reservations about his marriage or his feelings for Renly in what may well be the only private scene we get with him this season.

I disagree. There was no contrast between those 2 characters in today's episode, imo. I know - at least I think I know - you're referencing Brienne becoming angry and standing up in the bath at the mention of Renly's death as proof of her not being over him. She didn't become angry because Renly's mention caused her pain. She became angry because jaime reminded her of her inadequacy as protector, as a knight. Renly was under her protection and so was Jaime. One lost his life, the other his hand and his dignity. He made her feel insecure, her reaction was anger. Which is why she thought he was mocking her when he apologized saying he trusts her.

Also, show Brienne does not strike me as a woman stubbornly clinging on to Renly. Yes, his memory is precious to her, but she also seems well on her way to developing affection for Jaime.

Edited to correct a typo.

[Woel]

Loras is not Robert. Robert has different failings than Loras. It's apples and oranges there.

Oh, and lets put this another way, this idea that it's been so long that it's okay if Loras is getting over it...

Why is no one rolling their eyes at Brienne still grieving about Renly and saying she ought to be over it? It's the same damned thing, and she wasn't even his lover! The show's decision actually paints Loras in quite the terrible light because there's a literal point of contrast between these characters, where you have this example of the "good" Brienne still feeling that grief, and the "bad" Loras seeming to have just gotten over it. It's not even mentioned anymore, is it, and so far as I know, they didn't take the opportunity to have Loras really suggest any reservations about his marriage or his feelings for Renly in what may well be the only private scene we get with him this season.

I think both Brienne and Loras are grieving, but both still have emotional and sexual urges. I think we will see more of that with Jaime and Brienne later on. Just because Loras sleeps with one guy and does not act somber and grieving outwardly in that one scene, I don't thinks its fair to yell "GAY STEREOTYPE! CHARACTER ASSSASINATION!". I am a gay male myself, and I did not feel that scene reinforced some kind of prejudice or stereotype on me.

[StannisandDaeny]

To be honest Brienne only thinks of Renly twice in her actual POVs I believe, she's too distracted by Jaime and seriously, she was like the equivalent of Sansa when she was swooning over Renly, and she's gone through quite an evolution of opening her eyes... At least I think and hope so. Characters that don't change have a higher chance of being uninteresting.

[teemo]

Brienne and Loras' feelings are a strange comparison, because one was actually in a romantic relationship with him.