Why do so many people think, Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That doesn't neccesitate that all his children need to be trueborn by any means.

So he would create Blackfyre 2.0?

[King of Winters]

Obviously they didn't. They took his command to stay there to the grave, meaning the question becomes whether Rhaegar would only give that command if Jon was trueborn rather then if the Kingsguard thought they were guarding a Targaryan.

The answer to that question is no, in my mind. Rhaegar thought his line would birth the Prince who was Promised and that the dragon needs three heads. That doesn't neccesitate that all his children need to be trueborn by any means.

If Jon wasn't true born then the Kingsguard would leave as soon as Rhaegar had died, or as soon as they got the news of his death, because he was the one that ordered them to stay there, in which case they'd have gone to Viserys instead because he was another true born Targ.

[Ygrain]

Obviously they didn't. They took his command to stay there to the grave, meaning the question becomes whether Rhaegar would only give that command if Jon was trueborn rather then if the Kingsguard thought they were guarding a Targaryan.

The answer to that question is no, in my mind. Rhaegar thought his line would birth the Prince who was Promised and that the dragon needs three heads. That doesn't neccesitate that all his children need to be trueborn by any means.

It does, because a bastard wouldn't be a dragon, only a Targ would. Plus, why would Rhaegar want to dishonour the woman he loved if he possessed the means to make their union legitimate?

As for the Targ polygamy, GRRM himself stated that there may have been some later, less prominent occurences after Maegor - you can ask someone to fish it for you in the SSMs in the current R+L thread, I never know my way with these.

If Jon wasn't true born then the Kingsguard would leave as soon as Rhaegar had died, or as soon as they got the news of his death, because he was the one that ordered them to stay there, in which case they'd have gone to Viserys instead because he was another true born Targ.

Or they would split their numbers and fulfill both their obligations.

[King of Winters]

Or they would split their numbers and fulfill both their obligations.

Yeah, and that.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Jon was supposed to be Visenya

and of course he's true born

Rhaegar loved Lyanna

We can say Rhaegar had no love to Elia, he just did his obligations, it was a political wedding

[LightSpectra]

The interesting thing about that is that the three KG at the ToJ say that Darry was betraying his vows in going to Dragonstone with Viserys. At this point, the three of them are aware that Aerys and Rhaegar are dead.

So, are anti-RLJ folks going to claim that somebody ordered them not to protect Viserys under any circumstances? Who in the royal family gave this mysterious order and why?

[DurararaFTW]

So he would create Blackfyre 2.0?

Bloodraven was a Targ bastard too and Hand of the King.

If Jon wasn't true born then the Kingsguard would leave as soon as Rhaegar had died, or as soon as they got the news of his death, because he was the one that ordered them to stay there, in which case they'd have gone to Viserys instead because he was another true born Targ.

After Brandon was taken by the Mad King he dispatched messages, he had Rickard and the fathers of all Brandon's companions ride to King's Landing from Winterfell, Vale, Deepwood motte and wherever else they were to attend the trail. Rickard rode to Winterfell from King's Landing with 200 men. Who wasn't there waiting for them? Lyanna (who went with Rhaegar willingly as far the people in this topic goes) and Rhaegar.

No way in hell Lyanna couldn't have lapped Rickard to KL if she received word anywhere near timely and by timely, I mean within a good month of Brandon being taken prisoner.

So I don't accept that the received quick word of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon's deaths, off course they couldn't do anything about the death of the actual heir to the throne, they accepted that fact just by going to the Tower of Joy in the middle of a damn war. And even if they did. IT'S STILL A UNBORN CHILD! None of them were going after the Queen Regent, or am I suppose to believe that they knew she wouldn't survive her pregnancy too? No. They considered Jon their sole charge in spite of the rest of the family, not because they had unfortunately passed away.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Bloodraven was a Targ bastard too and Hand of the King.

and? One (BR) does not exclude all the others

[Moët]

Because she didn't want to marry Robert.

Because she cried when Rhaegar sang.

Because Rhaegar doesn't seem as psychopath who would call a place where he repeatedly raped some woman "Tower of Joy."

Because Eddard didn't hate him.

And most of all because she was holding flowers he'd given her when she died.

:agree:

And

Because according to everyone in the Seven Kingdoms, except Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar was the nicest, hottest, sexiest, most honorable, upstanding, talented dude in all of Westeros.

And because human sex hormones are nature's biological heroin, that makes people do things they wouldn't normally do. If it wasn't, humans would be extinct by now.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Just like Viserys I. He chose his heir to be Rhaenyra, even though by law the eldest male child is the heir. Then Ser Criston Cole the Kingmaker made Aegon II the King, sparking the Dance of Dragons.

ETA: I got the Aegons mixed up.

True & it's looking like another Dance is taking shape.

[King of Winters]

Bloodraven was a Targ bastard too and Hand of the King.

After Brandon was taken by the Mad King he dispatched messages, he had Rickard and the fathers of all Brandon's companions ride to King's Landing from Winterfell, Vale, Deepwood motte and wherever else they were to attend the trail. Rickard rode to Winterfell from King's Landing with 200 men. Who wasn't there waiting for them? Lyanna (who went with Rhaegar willingly as far the people in this topic goes) and Rhaegar.

No way in hell Lyanna couldn't have lapped Rickard to KL if she received word anywhere near timely and by timely, I mean within a good month of Brandon being taken prisoner.

So I don't accept that the received quick word of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon's deaths, off course they couldn't do anything about the death of the actual heir to the throne, they accepted that fact just by going to the Tower of Joy in the middle of a damn war. And even if they did. IT'S STILL A UNBORN CHILD! None of them were going after the Queen Regent, or am I suppose to believe that they knew she wouldn't survive her pregnancy too? No. They considered Jon their sole charge in spite of the rest of the family, not because they had unfortunately passed away.

We don't know if Ser Arthur, Gerold and Whent were at KL when Rhaegar was marching on the Trident. So Rheagar could have ordered them there before or during their march. They were probably told to wait there until Rhaegar returned or if he didn't, protect his heir, because he would have known that if he failed KL would fall.

[Ygrain]

The interesting thing about that is that the three KG at the ToJ say that Darry was betraying his vows in going to Dragonstone with Viserys. At this point, the three of them are aware that Aerys and Rhaegar are dead.

So, are anti-RLJ folks going to claim that somebody ordered them not to protect Viserys under any circumstances? Who in the royal family gave this mysterious order and why?

A little correction: WIllem Darry was not of KG, therefore not breaking any vows.

After Brandon was taken by the Mad King he dispatched messages, he had Rickard and the fathers of all Brandon's companions ride to King's Landing from Winterfell, Vale, Deepwood motte and wherever else they were to attend the trail. Rickard rode to Winterfell from King's Landing with 200 men. Who wasn't there waiting for them? Lyanna (who went with Rhaegar willingly as far the people in this topic goes) and Rhaegar.

No way in hell Lyanna couldn't have lapped Rickard to KL if she received word anywhere near timely and by timely, I mean within a good month of Brandon being taken prisoner.

So I don't accept that the received quick word of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon's deaths, off course they couldn't do anything about the death of the actual heir to the throne, they accepted that fact just by going to the Tower of Joy in the middle of a damn war. And even if they did. IT'S STILL A UNBORN CHILD! None of them were going after the Queen Regent, or am I suppose to believe that they knew she wouldn't survive her pregnancy too? No. They considered Jon their sole charge in spite of the rest of the family, not because they had unfortunately passed away.

Take a look at the distance from KL to ToJ, add to it travelling by side roads (or no roads at all) to avoid detection, plus having no reason to particularly hurry, plus the time necessary to send someone (perhaps Dayne to Starfall) out of that middle of nowhere to find out what is going on meanwhile. A month is no short period to manage this all, so most likely, she learned only when Brandon and Rickard were dead.

I don't understand why you keep claiming that the KG went to ToJ in the middle of the war - Dayne adn Whent were with Rhaegar since the very beginning, and Hightower was sent to fetch Rhaegar. Since Rhaegar was to become the Chief Commander of the royal armies, it was perfectly within his power to assign the KG to a task, and since Aerys was at that time guarded by the remaining KG, such an order wasn't in contradiction with their vows.

[KOM]

Bracketing R+L=J. Just look at KotLT and ask why R crowned L QoLaB.

(props to the poster on pg1 who mentioned this already, I'm just expanding some.)

1) because she's hot.

2). Because Lyanna = KotLT. Rhaegar was moved by her act of chivalry, protecting the weak, and reprimanding the squires and knights who lost honor. Rhaegar was also said by (jon conn?) to be planning reforms, etc. So he very likely could have valued Lyanna's courage, compassion, values, etc.

#2 sounds like plausible reasons to fall in love with somebody.

It also plays onto the importance of half the characters in the story, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, and the power dynamics that have kept women from having a full seat at the table.

As far as why she went willingly, we know that Lyanna wasn't enamored of Robert bc she knew he'd keep whoring and couldn't change. This sounds very reasonable for a smart assertive woman.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Fan club in Westeros of Rheagar haters

members: Robert Baratheon.............................

[Moët]

Three KG are with Rhaegar at The Trident. (and all dead, except Barristan.)

Jamie is in King's Landing.

Three stay with Lyanna at the ToJ..

If baby Jon was not legitimate, and indeed a bastard, there would be no reason for Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower to fight Ned Stark over his own sister, and her Blackfyre offspring, after Aerys, Rhaegar, and baby Aegon are all dead, whether or not they were ordered to stay to guarantee her safety.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Three KG are with Rhaegar at The Trident. (and all dead.)

Jamie is in King's Landing.

Three stay with Lyanna at the ToJ..

If baby Jon was not legitimate, and indeed a bastard, there would be no reason for Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower to fight Ned Stark over his own sister, and her Blackfyre offspring, after Aerys, Rhaegar, and baby Aegon are all dead, whether or not they were ordered to stay to guarantee her safety.

Selmy is not dead, he was just wounded

I agree with the rest of your post

[DurararaFTW]

and? One (BR) does not exclude all the others

Nor does Blackfyre exemplify the inevitable fate of every Targ bastard.

We don't know if Ser Arthur, Gerold and Whent were at KL when Rhaegar was marching on the Trident. So Rheagar could have ordered them there before or during their march. They were probably told to wait there until Rhaegar returned or if he didn't, protect his heir, because he would have known that if he failed KL would fall.

His heir being Aegon. Who was at King's Landing.

Take a look at the distance from KL to ToJ, add to it travelling by side roads (or no roads at all) to avoid detection, plus having no reason to particularly hurry, plus the time necessary to send someone (perhaps Dayne to Starfall) out of that middle of nowhere to find out what is going on meanwhile. A month is no short period to manage this all, so most likely, she learned only when Brandon and Rickard were dead.

Yeah, she learned only when Brandon and Rickard were dead. She was at Tower of Joy, and despite all the leagues the ravens and horses had to travel between Winterfell and King's Landing, she didn't receive word on time and certainly could never get to KL on time to do anything about anything.

That is what Hightower resigned himself too for months on end. That everyone that stood in Jon's way being King is dead as much his doing as any else's.

[King of Winters]

His heir being Aegon. Who was at King's Landing.

Jon was his second heir, and as of The Sack, his true heir.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I also think Rhaegar wanted to cast his father down, he saw how mad he was, once he had won Robert's Rebellion, he would probably took the crown from his father and he would be the new King, with two queens (Elia and Lyanna)

[Ygrain]

Yeah, she learned only when Brandon and Rickard were dead. She was at Tower of Joy, and despite all the leagues the ravens and horses had to travel between Winterfell and King's Landing, she didn't receive word on time and certainly could never get to KL on time to do anything about anything.

Winterfell was on the raven network and Rickard had a damned good reason to hurry. ToJ being an old abandoned watchtower didn't receive ravenmail and R+L had to get there in the first place; while they were on the roads, and avoiding being spotted, no message could reach them.

That is what Hightower resigned himself too for months on end. That everyone that stood in Jon's way being King is dead as much his doing as any else's.

Hightower staying at KL would have been heroically dead, being overpowered, and the outcome would have been exactly the same.