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Heresy 53


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And rather like one of those Swiss weather things no sooner does Tyryan go in than I emerge blinking into the morning...

So, welcome to Heresy 53, the latest edition of the long-running thread that looks below the surface of the Song of Ice and Fire.

It is (still) Heresy because here we question the easy assumptions (amongst others) that Bloodraven is manipulating everything, that the Others are evil incarnate, that the Children of the Forest will teach Bran Stark how to defeat them, that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, and that he will ride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name.

Instead, prompted by the wealth of clues, Easter eggs and cookies which litter the text, we look at the mythological sources which underpin the magic in the story, especially around and beyond the Wall, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Welsh Mabinogion, the Irish Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others, to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn, Herne the Hunter and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and exhibiting three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone.

A major influence in leading heretics down the primrose path to these sources and characters was a reference by GRRM to the Others as being like the Sidhe made of ice:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That Sidhe reference is not only apposite since what is known of the Others’ behaviour certainly corresponds to Faerie legend portraying them as beautiful but cruel, given to hunting maidens through the woods and to taking human children as changelings, per Craster’s sons, but its also significant that GRRM describes them as being made of Ice, because that exactly mirrors what we’ve discovered of Mel, Moqorro and Victarion, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh, exactly equal to and opposite those protagonists of Ice – the Others and their mysterious symbols.

And then there’s the Wall, not at all unlike the Bifrost bridge in the Norse Eddas, and which we have come to believe is not a defensive structure at all but the boundary raised up by great magic between the realms of men (which the Watch are sworn to protect) and the Faerie realms beyond, linked by the magic portal under the Nightfort. In Ragnarok the bridge is broken and likewise we suspect that the magic Wall must come down to achieve a resolution and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

In doing that, Jon (apparently soon to be found being pursued alone through a forest near you) seems destined to bridle the Ice as King of Winter, while Danaerys Targaryen, once tipped as his partner, may instead have to go back – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 5 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

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OK, I have a bunch of questions about the supernatural 'mechanics' at play in the series. Anyone who would like to answer with their own interpretation is welcome, I'm just curious to see what you people think.

What is the form and function of the soul in ASoIaF?

What evidence is there for reincarnation, and by what mechanism does it work?

How confident are you that there are actual deities, and what role do you believe that they take?

What is the mechanism of sacred vows, to whom are they made, and what are the rules or process of justice that govern people who make oaths?

It is commonly believed that some form of life or 'blood' is the currency with which magical 'transactions' are paid. Is this true universally? What is the mechanism of sacrifice, and how are the values determined?

GRRM once said that his magic would not simply follow a set of 'rules' or formulae. Do you believe this to be true, or do you think that magic is mechanical? Which do you think the characters believe?

Exactly how much do you think the supernatural elements of ASoIaF parallel various mythologies from our own history? Would you say that they are a reliable predicative metric?

If you were to explain the mechanism of skinchanging, how would you do so?

Likewise, how would you explain the mechanism of prophesy?

Is there any mundane practice that you believe has a forgotten supernatural explanation? For example, do you think that the Night's Watch are allowed no children not for obvious practical reasons, but to prevent 'Crasterism' on the wall?

People sacrifice bastards like they're going out of style. What purpose does this serve? Why bastards, specifically?

Those are the sort of questions I've been asking myself lately. I think it would be interesting to see your theories.

This general line of questioning came up for me when I was trying to work out the internal 'logic' of things like skinchanging and the process by which Others are created. In my random musings, I came up with a novel, if hair-brained theory. I call it the 'Scientology' theory, because it reminds me of that system of beliefs.

I was thinking that perhaps people are not born as skinchangers, but instead that skinchangers are inherited or attached souls of a transient nature. A skinchanger seems to be able to project its consciousness or soul across almost any distance to inhabit various vessels, living or otherwise. They can also survive the death of their host bodies. When they inhabit another vessel which already contains a soul, they push that soul aside but can definitely feel that it is still there. All of this leads me to wonder if skinchangers need ever die, and if perhaps the body they were 'born' in was simply an empty vessel they were somehow attached to. While in that vessel they grow and develop as any person would, perhaps forgetting their past existence, and when that vessel is destroyed that distinct personality is destroyed as well or absorbed into another vessel. However, could it not be passed from vessel to vessel, even if it did not remember? And if it could somehow find a succession of suitable 'empty' vessels, could it not also remember without fear of being absorbed into another personality?

I wonder if this is what the Others are; the 'Thetans' of ASoIaF. A community of immortal souls that can freely transfer from host to host. When Craster gives up a son, is he providing a vessel? Are human 'wargs' just Others who have forgotten what they really are? Perhaps the pact you refer to that forged the boundary between the realm of the Others and that of men, was that the Faeries and mortals would leave each other in peace as long as men provided plenty of bastard sacrifices, and the original purpose of the Night's Watch was to facilitate this exchange.

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What evidence is there for reincarnation, and by what mechanism does it work?

Unless you want to call the "raised from the dead" people reincarnated, I don't think there's a lot of textual support for reincarnation. But I often miss a lot of stuff, so I might also have missed that ;).

Oh well: we do have Azor Ahai Reborn of course; but does that point to actual reincarnation? Or to a new person fulfilling the same duties/feats? I think the latter.

How confident are you that there are actual deities, and what role do you believe that they take?

In my opinion there are no deities (at least none who will show any agentivity).

There's some/a lot of people here who talk about the agentivity of the Old Gods (acting through the Direwolves), but I don't feel it. So feel free to disagree (this goes for all of this, of course)

Likewise, how would you explain the mechanism of prophesy?

I recently read a nice interpretation. But I cannot remember where (so if I'm stealing someones theory: I didn't mean to!). Prophecies are made and find some way to get fulfilled. Sometimes even more than once. And it could be that the fulfilling only takes place hundreds of years after the prophecy.

So for example, all the books with a "chosen one". If the "chosen one" fails to fulfill, another possible "chosen one" will come and they might fulfill the prophesy.

I wish I could link you to where I read it, because I'm not really explaining it properly :).

People sacrifice bastards like they're going out of style. What purpose does this serve? Why bastards, specifically?

There was a lot of talk about this in Heresy 50 (?). The sacrificing of Bastards was indeed noted (especially by throwing them down wells, apparently). I think it was "bastards specifically" because they are more connected to nature (their bastard names point to that) but I've forgotten the details. The search function is back, so you might be able to find out more for yourself :).

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These are terrific questions, Lucifer Lightbringer, and very well-framed for discussion! I'd like to give initial thoughts on a few of them, but there's plenty here for lots of conversation.

What is the form and function of the soul in ASoIaF?

What evidence is there for reincarnation, and by what mechanism does it work?

So, I think that these questions go together, because it's really through the evidence for reincarnation that we see something like a soul. To me, the best evidence comes from the notion that the ravens carry with them the consciousness of singers/children. Of course, we've had a hard time figuring out how, exactly, this works, and I really like your questions regarding skinchanging here, and the way that you relate it to questions of the soul. To my mind, you raise the possibility that the inhabiting of ravens by the soul of the singer could happen via a process like skinchanging, so that upon the death of an individual raven, the soul-fragment passes into a new raven body.

But I think that there's also something like a person's "life force" that underpins the various forms of raising from "death" that we see. This seems only possible when the dead person has not been dead for long (here I'm thinking of the BwB, and the fact that Beric loses a bit of himself with each death, and that Cat is less herself because she's been dead a while), though it's unclear to me whether the WWs can reanimate any corpse they come upon, no matter how long dead, or whether it needs to be a fresh kill in order for them to do so. There would seem to be something like soul/consciousness involved, insofar as the reanimated being retains memories/impulses/compulsions from its living state.

Related to this is your question:

It is commonly believed that some form of life or 'blood' is the currency with which magical 'transactions' are paid. Is this true universally? What is the mechanism of sacrifice, and how are the values determined?
I think this is the case, though I think of it in terms of "life" more broadly, rather than blood in particular. I say this because I'm not sure how the WWs do their reanimation. I've speculated in previous threads that "breath" could also be a "material" magical transaction, as suggested by the notion of the "kiss" (though blood was involved in the death of the individuals concerned). But I also think of breath because of the "mistiness" of the WWs. Admittedly, there's little to go on regarding breath. I've also suggested that semen could be a material through which magical transactions occur, here based upon the story of the Night's King, though that evidence is also hazy, and it's possible that there was blood sacrifice involved. But the "transactions" between Mel and Stannis in producing shadowbabies seems to suggest that part of Stannis' soul or life force went into the creation of the shadowbabies through the extraction of semen. It follows the folk motif of consumption as "soul-loss" through the extraction of semen by some fairie lover. But, I don't think we've any cases of genuine magic that don't seem to involve some sort of "life force transaction," except in the case of beings that are inherently "magical" (here from the perspective of humans): skinchangers. [i exclude dragons, since I think that they are simply naturally what they are. Though this opens a can of worms, since what seems magical to humans may be simply the alternate capabilities of nonhumans.]

I look forward to thinking about your other questions, too.

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@Lucifer: see the above by Emma and Hrafntyr

My addition to what they have said re: souls is that, when you die, your soul slowly melts away into all of nature; think of what Varamyr goes through in between when he dies and when he gets sucked into One-Eye--he talks about how he is a part of everything. I feel that for everyone who is not a skinchanger, this is the extent of what happens, and that, just like skinchangers slowly over time become enveloped and one with their familiar after death, so to do us mere mortals vis-a-vis nature upon death. The one qualifier is that the climate within which you die can effect the process in which you become absorbed by nature, with my theory being that Ice Climate slows down the spead of the soul dispersion, "Earth climate" (ie regular, "normal" weather) is a normal dispersion, Water is a sped up dispersion, and Fire is an instant dispersion (that or a complete obliteration?). As to "resurrection", it is simply the magical being stopping the dispersion process where it is at, forcing the remainder of the soul back into the host body, with the caveat of the form of magic utilized determining the type of being the host is.

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Yes, carrying on with the above a lot of what we think we know about raising the dead comes from that very helpful Varamyr prologue, but I'd add a couple of qualifications.

First off, the soul or spirit is obviously very important. Normally at death it appears to sleep and to gradually decay with the body into the earth, unless the process is dramatically speeded up by cremation. Traditionally cutting the head off is also efficacious. The point then being that resurrection whether by Ice or Fire seems to simultaneously involve arresting the decay at the point of applying the magic and awakening the sleeping spirit. The effectiveness obviously depends very much on the state of decay in both mind and body at that time.

Skinchangers are obviously different from ordinary humans in that their spirits are not tied to their bodies but can roam freely up to the point of dead, at which point they can enter a second life within a familiar, but once again although conscious rather than sleeping they will gradually decay into it. The point of this being that having been stabbed Jon looks like taking refuge in Ghost, but if his body is actually dead he can't get out again.

Now, then we move up a further step to consider the Others/Sidhe and the Fire Demons (for want of a better term) such as Mel and Moqorro. Their bodies are now Ice made flesh and Fire made flesh respectively but leaving the as yet unknown mechanics of the particular magic aside I'm much inclined to believe that the difference between them and the wights is that the transformation takes place while they are still alive.

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I'm an aristotelic-thomasian (more into Aristotle, actually) thinker so..., lets share this particular point of view, trying to apply it to ASoIaF.

The soul is something like the concept, image, plan, design, idea of the specific material being. As every corporal being is unique so does the soul. Wich would mean that no reincarnation is possible, but wouldn't had issues on resurrection. Now, trying to explain skinchanging with this particular point of view is really difficult, but there are hints on the book that are in concordance with what would happen according to the form-matter couple. The union on this given couple is so intimate, that has no existance previous its union, that is, at the very moment they come into existance, they're already coupled. It's said that death happens once the 'matter' can't any longer sustain its 'form' (suffers enough damage, for example). So, not just any "matter" can sustain any "form" but only a certain specific matter to a given form.

Now this doesn't really means an issue with the first part of skinchangning: leave the counsciousness of your body and take counscience and control of another being. If it'd follow this hypothesis, warging wouldn't mean that you actually get your soul into another's body, but that your soul is only stealing control, like a puppeteer, only that this theft would incluse that body's senses, it'd be a complete theft of the matterial body, with the difference that you're like keeping the owner's soul "hostage" and not oblibarate it or expel it. Then, what would happen once the skinchanger dies is what I find in concordance to this point of view: they go and warg into someone (be it animal or human, the last seems to be pretty hard to do) but, eventually their own personality fades and "merges" with that body's soul until, according to the free people, they're no more than the animal (no information at all about warging 'permantly' into a human). This would be the logical consequences on this ASoIaF "aristotelic" approach, since the warg's soul has lost its unique matter, and, being warged into an alien matter can only sustain him imperfectly, so that matter is most likely to not be able to hold it forever, not even until death, but only for a time.

Now, regarding plain and simple death... Aristotle kind of didn't believed in afterlife, and we christians hold afterlife as both a consequence of our intelligence (wich 'provides' us not just a soul but a spiritual soul, it'd take a lot to explain this) and by God's Grace, so... I belive that feeling of merging with everything would make sense with the aristotelic point of view, the christian one, has nothing to say about this ASoIaF world either way.

I hope this gives us more elements to think about.

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Is there any mundane practice that you believe has a forgotten supernatural explanation? For example, do you think that the Night's Watch are allowed no children not for obvious practical reasons, but to prevent 'Crasterism' on the wall?

In my view yes; given their perpetual manpower problems it would actually make a lot of sense for men of the Watch to marry and to father kids who can be brought up as soldiers, and to have daughters and wives who can provide a lot of the support functions currently done by the Stewards, who in turn could then do some honest soldiering.

The fact they don't and that the take no wives, father no children bit is so deeply ingrained suggests that the prohibition has its origins in the Nights King business and the "sacrificing" to the Others.

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Let's say, for instance, that a skinchanger were able to enter the body of an infant child at the time that its original host body died. What do you think would happen then? Would the skinchanger still be absorbed into the existing personality of the child, or would it, being the stronger of the two, be able to suppress the child or even absorb it?

I appreciate everyone's input. I would like to write more but at the moment I don't have the time. It is definitely a fun conversation to have though.

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Let's say, for instance, that a skinchanger were able to enter the body of an infant child at the time that its original host body died. What do you think would happen then? Would the skinchanger still be absorbed into the existing personality of the child, or would it, being the stronger of the two, be able to suppress the child or even absorb it?

Keeping my previous approach, and for what I've learn of psychology, that would certainly have a strong impact in that child, but the warg's soul would eventually decay. Most likely, the child may have memories of the warg's thoughts, and that'd obviously influence his personality and growth.

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I'd agree with Marti on this one, with the caveat that its an unlikely scenario since to judge by the Varamyr prologue the link would be one that was formed before death. In Varamyr's case there were a number of beasts he could potentially have moved into but he doesn't seem to have had a real choice in the matter. He was still alive when he tried to take Thisle and after death his spirit seems to have defaulted to the beast where the strongest link had been formed.

Thus the only way the skinchange to baby scenario would come about is if the jump was deliberately made before death. Now while that's theoretically possible we've only got Varamyr's experience to go by and for all we know the skinchanger might still default to the primary familiar rather than the current one.

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@Lucifer: see the above by Emma and Hrafntyr

My addition to what they have said re: souls is that, when you die, your soul slowly melts away into all of nature; think of what Varamyr goes through in between when he dies and when he gets sucked into One-Eye--he talks about how he is a part of everything. I feel that for everyone who is not a skinchanger, this is the extent of what happens, and that, just like skinchangers slowly over time become enveloped and one with their familiar after death, so to do us mere mortals vis-a-vis nature upon death. The one qualifier is that the climate within which you die can effect the process in which you become absorbed by nature, with my theory being that Ice Climate slows down the spead of the soul dispersion, "Earth climate" (ie regular, "normal" weather) is a normal dispersion, Water is a sped up dispersion, and Fire is an instant dispersion (that or a complete obliteration?). As to "resurrection", it is simply the magical being stopping the dispersion process where it is at, forcing the remainder of the soul back into the host body, with the caveat of the form of magic utilized determining the type of being the host is.

Could you expand on that last bit?

Yes, carrying on with the above a lot of what we think we know about raising the dead comes from that very helpful Varamyr prologue, but I'd add a couple of qualifications.

First off, the soul or spirit is obviously very important. Normally at death it appears to sleep and to gradually decay with the body into the earth, unless the process is dramatically speeded up by cremation. Traditionally cutting the head off is also efficacious. The point then being that resurrection whether by Ice or Fire seems to simultaneously involve arresting the decay at the point of applying the magic and awakening the sleeping spirit. The effectiveness obviously depends very much on the state of decay in both mind and body at that time.

Skinchangers are obviously different from ordinary humans in that their spirits are not tied to their bodies but can roam freely up to the point of dead, at which point they can enter a second life within a familiar, but once again although conscious rather than sleeping they will gradually decay into it. The point of this being that having been stabbed Jon looks like taking refuge in Ghost, but if his body is actually dead he can't get out again.

Now, then we move up a further step to consider the Others/Sidhe and the Fire Demons (for want of a better term) such as Mel and Moqorro. Their bodies are now Ice made flesh and Fire made flesh respectively but leaving the as yet unknown mechanics of the particular magic aside I'm much inclined to believe that the difference between them and the wights is that the transformation takes place while they are still alive.

So the wights are very nearly devoid of souls? The Others wait until the last possible moment to revive them so as to control them better?

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Skinchangers are obviously different from ordinary humans in that their spirits are not tied to their bodies but can roam freely up to the point of dead, at which point they can enter a second life within a familiar, but once again although conscious rather than sleeping they will gradually decay into it. The point of this being that having been stabbed Jon looks like taking refuge in Ghost, but if his body is actually dead he can't get out again.

I'd throw into the mix one interesting addendum: the Stark direwolves seem to have a sense of their siblings, even at great distance. I don't know if this has to do with a natural capability of direwolves, or with some special quality of their being the "familiars" of the skinchanging Starks. And I don't know the metaphysical implications of it.
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This is the song of ice (white) and fire (red). We have discussed a lot about blood (red) sacrifice in conjunction with the followers of R'hollor. But the Night King gave his seed (white) to the pale woman, as we suspect a follower of the Great Other.

In short: the Others practice sperm magic.

What happens when they get king's sperm?

(Too bad they never met Robert. He would have donated more than they could handle).

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I'd agree with Marti on this one, with the caveat that its an unlikely scenario since to judge by the Varamyr prologue the link would be one that was formed before death. In Varamyr's case there were a number of beasts he could potentially have moved into but he doesn't seem to have had a real choice in the matter. He was still alive when he tried to take Thisle and after death his spirit seems to have defaulted to the beast where the strongest link had been formed.

Thus the only way the skinchange to baby scenario would come about is if the jump was deliberately made before death. Now while that's theoretically possible we've only got Varamyr's experience to go by and for all we know the skinchanger might still default to the primary familiar rather than the current one.

It's an interesting question, though, and might put a slightly different spin on all our discussion of the "sacrifice" of infants. Could skinchanging into the new bodies be involved? It doesn't seem likely, thought, unless the skinchanging beings in question have some sort of organized nursery system in place!
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This is the song of ice (white) and fire (red). We have discussed a lot about blood (red) sacrifice in conjunction with the followers of R'hollor. But the Night King gave his seed (white) to the pale woman, as we suspect a follower of the Great Other.

In short: the Others practice sperm magic.

What happens when they get king's sperm?

(Too bad they never met Robert. He would have donated more than they could handle).

I've raised this idea before, too. And, speaking to the question of mundane practices with supernatural precedents, the whole human obsession with lineage, and all the ways in the stories in which "love" thwarts or promotes this obsession, could be seen as a mundane application of "sperm magic"! It's the magic of life, in short.
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I'd throw into the mix one interesting addendum: the Stark direwolves seem to have a sense of their siblings, even at great distance. I don't know if this has to do with a natural capability of direwolves, or with some special quality of their being the "familiars" of the skinchanging Starks. And I don't know the metaphysical implications of it.

I'm inclined to believe it's a natural trait of direwolves. Dogs are said to have a 6th sense, even across great distances.

Or Bloodraven keeps warging into each direwolf to check up on the Starks. Which would explain why it's so easy to warg into the wolves, having been 'ridden' before and all...

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I'd throw into the mix one interesting addendum: the Stark direwolves seem to have a sense of their siblings, even at great distance. I don't know if this has to do with a natural capability of direwolves, or with some special quality of their being the "familiars" of the skinchanging Starks. And I don't know the metaphysical implications of it.

A spirit isn't matter at all, so space means nothing to it. Since the bond between warg-familiar is so strong as to them being almost like extentions of themselves. It would be a matter of being able to connect with the being or place you want to... travel. It's not necessary because they're direwolves, but because they have such a strong bond. How does an animal reachs the state of familar? No idea at all, I guess that's with help of the Old Gods...

So the wights are very nearly devoid of souls? The Others wait until the last possible moment to revive them so as to control them better?

Doubt it. The wights wich got into Castle Black did seemed to have memories, and I don't recall them to be that decomposed yet they were entirely antagonists towards their former brothers. I don't think the wight need to be in a precise state of decay for the WWs to control them, and I woudn't bet that those wights have their original souls once raised, more like they're being... animated by the WWs themselves, their magic, I don't know :s. But if there's no original soul, how did they had those memories? Maybe not through their souls but the remnants of them? Or maybe it doesn't matter the state of decay and they just raise them differently from what fire priests do, somehow binding their wills? But binding such great hosts of wills shoudn't be easy at all and for what we know, it doesn't seem hard at all for the WWs to raise their wight armies.

It's an interesting question, though, and might put a slightly different spin on all our discussion of the "sacrifice" of infants. Could skinchanging into the new bodies be involved? It doesn't seem likely, thought, unless the skinchanging beings in question have some sort of organized nursery system in place!

No one seemed to have skinchanged into Victarion for him to became fire made flesh. I believe the WWs raise those kids like any other child and at some point, they infuse them with ice (I think that would happen rather quickly, for them to survive) and since they're raised as one of them, I see no problem in those infants growing into WWs with their mentality and else.

Edit: Clarifying some stuff about the WWs army raising machine :D

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to clarify, is there a prevailing view that there is complete symetry between ice beings and fire beings, i.e.:

Others = Fire Demons

Wights = Un-Almost-Dead (e.g., Stonehart, Beric?)

if so,

What = "Red Parson"? (Thoros)?

Am I missing anything else, like did the Night's King's congress with the Others give him supernatural powers? And how did Thoros receive his "gift"?

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