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[BOOK SPOILERS] About the depiction of Theon's torture on the show(SPOILERS!)


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Dear people of westeros.org, first poster here. I've been reading the forums for quite some time, but never dared to post, for the most part because I didn’t think I have to much to add on the discussions that usually take place, but, watching the series something occur to me that it may possibly not have been discussed so far on the forums, if it has, I apologize.

For me, and I believe for a considerable amount of people, one of the most disturbing aspects when reading about the torture of Theon Greyjoy by the hands o Ramsey is the constant insinuation of his gelding. It is never explicitly said that he had his genitals maimed and there is no actual evidence other than some indicative lines said by Ramsey, Roose and Theon himself. There’s also some fearful behavior depicted by Theon that could corroborate this theory, but I will not prolong this because it was already discussed before.

My question is the following: Assuming that Theon was, if not completely castrated by Ramsey and his lackeys, had his genitals disfigured in some way, maybe only his dick was flayed an then cut off (that seems to be the most common place that people discussing the subject tend to reach). Do you guys think the show will reveal that, maybe do it in a more obvious way? I don’t mean in a graphically explicitly way, but a more obvious scene where we do not see the act itself, but its mentioned so that is no doubt about it.

I don’t think it will happen, maybe would be to hardcore, and seen the way that they described the unsullied, where the castration was somewhat obscure and not everyone noticed until the last episode, not to mention that we already had Varys also telling his story about how he got “cut”, maybe it would be too much genital mutilation for just one season….

I’m sorry that my first post is about such nasty aspect of the story, but Theon became one of my favorite characters, and his narrative in the fifth book, the whole physical and mental torture, the obliteration of his identity until he begins to really reflect over his life and what he has done, it always intrigued and horrified me.

Sorry again for the long text and the poor writing, english its not my first/mother language.

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Sometimes I still hold out hope that Theon hasn't been completely castrated, b/c he is one of my favorite characters and it just horrifies me so much :(

I really hope they don't do this on the show ... I feel like if they do, it will confirm (or maybe it will just be something D&D want to do) ... maybe it depends on what Theon's ultimate fate in the books is? Like, does he live and become new Varys or something? Then it would be relevant. If it stays vague in the books and he ends up dying in the next book or the last, then it doesn't really matter if they protray it or not.

I just don't know. I am super curious to see how far they go with this nasty business - I'm so glad they have added it in at this point in show.

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Welcome, friend!

I wouldn't be surprised if they alluded to it on the show. It's definitley not out of bounds for this show, or for HBO in general. After all, they did show a man getting his nipple carved out this season. Assuming Theon did get cut in some way, I guess it's up to D&D if it belongs in the show.

But if they did have it in, I have no doubt HBO would be able to pull it off (pun intended). I think you're right on the money, in that they definitley wont depict any genital mutilation straight up, but would mention it/cut away/use some clever cinematography or writing tricks to get the point across.

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I don't think they will show Theon's castration on screen, but I'm quite sure it will happen, either with the camera showing only Theon's face or with the screen cutting to black. And I am totally convinced that Theon was actually gelded in the books. There are too many hints.

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Yeah, my feeling is that they will show a scene about it that will leave no doubt it happened. Probably not graphic; we won't see any close ups.

Just like how in the books the Loras and Renly homosexual relationship was only hinted at, but HBO left no doubt about it.

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The main issue with Theon's storyline from here till ADWD is that I'm imagining it just being a straight up torture fest in the dungeons of the Dreadfort. Since they cannot possibly show a character just being tortured physically and emotionally for seasons on end, they're going to have to start limiting what we see of Theon and Ramsay going forward. No one wants to watch Theon get marbleized again and again...and if you do, you're a sick puppy! lol

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Welcome!

I agree that the showmakers are quite fond of showing anything involving or alluding to genitals, so I do think they'll at least make a reference to Theon's probable castration. It also adds shock value, which will keep the viewers engaged in the series.

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The main issue with Theon's storyline from here till ADWD is that I'm imagining it just being a straight up torture fest in the dungeons of the Dreadfort. Since they cannot possibly show a character just being tortured physically and emotionally for seasons on end, they're going to have to start limiting what we see of Theon and Ramsay going forward. No one wants to watch Theon get marbleized again and again...and if you do, you're a sick puppy! lol

Didn't want my first post to be about Ramsay/Theon torture but this post pretty much said what I was thinking so here we are haha

I haven't read the books but after Season 2 I found "A wiki of Ice and Fire" and spoiled everything for myself so I know the gist of whats going on but obviously missed a lot. Found the forum right after S3 Ep 4 and after reading I found a lot of people saying they 'Loved' the Theon/Ramsay storyline and 'couldn't wait' to see it play out. My question is why? To me the entire torture storyline seemed ridiculous and an unnecessary part of the series, esp the whole making him become 'Reek' and Theon pretty much accepting all this & willingly staying with Ramsay. He even helps Ramsay defeat pretty much the only people that would be interested in rescuing him.(Ironborn at Moat Callin) I just don't get how someone could not only enjoy that storyline in the book but want to watch it play out on TV. It's not entertaining to me, just f***ed up. Building Ramsay up as a villain is 1 thing but the torture/transformation stuff just doesn't need to be there. Really boggles my mind that the TV show left out ALL of the things that establish Ramsay as a villain before the Theon stuff and are just focusing on the torture. Esp since they apparently skipped most of it in the book and picked up after the 'transformation.'

So what am I missing. Why do people like and want to see this? Why is it such an 'interesting' storyline? Why is it integral to the series? Maybe someone see's something I don't but i wish they had just left it out of the book and TV show.

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To me the entire torture storyline seemed ridiculous and an unnecessary part of the series, esp the whole making him become 'Reek' and Theon pretty much accepting all this & willingly staying with Ramsay. He even helps Ramsay defeat pretty much the only people that would be interested in rescuing him.(Ironborn at Moat Callin)

So what am I missing. Why do people like and want to see this? Why is it such an 'interesting' storyline? Why is it integral to the series? Maybe someone see's something I don't but i wish they had just left it out of the book and TV show.

Theon stayed because he was too abused and broken not too. That's one of those situations you can't just "bootstrap" out of short of divine intervention.

What I find so touching and compelling about it was seeing a completely broken man regain his identity and sense of self worth. I was literally cheerin irl when Theon and the washerwomen rescued Jeyne.

You're right, there's not anything particularly great about lots and lots of torture but unfortunately it's kind of a necessary slog to get to the good part of the arc, and since they don't do flashbacks this is the only real way. It also helps establish Ramsay as Westeros #1 Dude To Hate.

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Didn't want my first post to be about Ramsay/Theon torture but this post pretty much said what I was thinking so here we are haha

I haven't read the books but after Season 2 I found "A wiki of Ice and Fire" and spoiled everything for myself so I know the gist of whats going on but obviously missed a lot. Found the forum right after S3 Ep 4 and after reading I found a lot of people saying they 'Loved' the Theon/Ramsay storyline and 'couldn't wait' to see it play out. My question is why? To me the entire torture storyline seemed ridiculous and an unnecessary part of the series, esp the whole making him become 'Reek' and Theon pretty much accepting all this & willingly staying with Ramsay. He even helps Ramsay defeat pretty much the only people that would be interested in rescuing him.(Ironborn at Moat Callin) I just don't get how someone could not only enjoy that storyline in the book but want to watch it play out on TV. It's not entertaining to me, just f***ed up. Building Ramsay up as a villain is 1 thing but the torture/transformation stuff just doesn't need to be there. Really boggles my mind that the TV show left out ALL of the things that establish Ramsay as a villain before the Theon stuff and are just focusing on the torture. Esp since they apparently skipped most of it in the book and picked up after the 'transformation.'

So what am I missing. Why do people like and want to see this? Why is it such an 'interesting' storyline? Why is it integral to the series? Maybe someone see's something I don't but i wish they had just left it out of the book and TV show.

I won't argue that it's heinous and disturbing, because it is. But Theon undergoes some sort of catharsis during aDwD that was wonderful to read. In the books, his chapters in aDwD were arguably the best because of how emotional and thought provoking it was. While Ramsay no doubt takes it too far, that's what it took for Theon to drop his whole arrogant and childish demeanor and come to terms with what he's done, and what he ought to do going forward.

We also don't 'see' it happen, it's all flashback and reflection. George also explores some contraversial territory that other authors won't convey, that there are some straight up sick bastards in every world, real or imagined. It's horror and it's gross but symbolically for me, Ramsay literally stripping off his skin is like an unraveling of Theon's person - that deep down he's not a huge dick, and beneath those layers of brutality and selfishness was a boy/man who isn't altogether that bad. I can see why it can be too much for people, and I often struggled to read some of it, but it was also fascinating. I'd never read anything like that and particularly not in a non horror genre.

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So what am I missing. Why do people like and want to see this? Why is it such an 'interesting' storyline? Why is it integral to the series? Maybe someone see's something I don't but i wish they had just left it out of the book and TV show.

I think the Theon story is intriguing, because it makes us root for a character that we previously hated. I always wanted to like Theon, and I always hoped he would do the right thing, but when he betrayed Rob Stark, I thought that was unforgivable. It was impossible to envision a way in which I could hope for the redemption of Theon. I thought he was too far gone, but as heinous as some of Theon's acts were, nobody deserves the torture and punishment he's receiving from the Bastard. It almost allows us to forgive Theon. We can't forget what he did, but he has endured punishment far beyond his crimes. The appeal of the Theon story is that it almost gives him a second chance at redemption. It's brilliant, because there's no other way in which Theon would be eligible for redemption or forgiveness.

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Thank you all for the welcoming and the replies, it's very appreciated.

Sometimes I still hold out hope that Theon hasn't been completely castrated, b/c he is one of my favorite characters and it just horrifies me so much :(

I really hope they don't do this on the show ... I feel like if they do, it will confirm (or maybe it will just be something D&D want to do) ... maybe it depends on what Theon's ultimate fate in the books is? Like, does he live and become new Varys or something? Then it would be relevant. If it stays vague in the books and he ends up dying in the next book or the last, then it doesn't really matter if they protray it or not.

I just don't know. I am super curious to see how far they go with this nasty business - I'm so glad they have added it in at this point in show.

Him becoming something like a new Varys would be awful in my opinion, and i don't think it would happen. Varys is other character that i really like and his actions and motivations are also very intriguing, more so if you consider all the possible theories about Backfires and whatnot, but his own mutilation maybe more linked with his secret story yet to be revealed then with his "function" as master of secrets/whispers, so i don't see Theon heading a similar path.

Regarding his fate, i indeed do believe his not going to live to see the spring to be honest. It will be very interesting to see how he's going to interact with Stannis and in which way his sister will try to help/use him, if she will end up taking care of him or abandon him after seen all the damage he has suffered, is a very emotionally rich scenario to explore i think.

I don't think they will show Theon's castration on screen, but I'm quite sure it will happen, either with the camera showing only Theon's face or with the screen cutting to black. And I am totally convinced that Theon was actually gelded in the books. There are too many hints.

I also think the hints are just too many....your signature plus avatar give me the creeps when thinking about the next episode.

The main issue with Theon's storyline from here till ADWD is that I'm imagining it just being a straight up torture fest in the dungeons of the Dreadfort. Since they cannot possibly show a character just being tortured physically and emotionally for seasons on end, they're going to have to start limiting what we see of Theon and Ramsay going forward. No one wants to watch Theon get marbleized again and again...and if you do, you're a sick puppy! lol

This also puzzle me, there's too much time until Roose come back to use him and he gets a little break off all the torture, i honestly don't know how they will balance the scenes, it will be interesting to see.

I won't argue that it's heinous and disturbing, because it is. But Theon undergoes some sort of catharsis during aDwD that was wonderful to read. In the books, his chapters in aDwD were arguably the best because of how emotional and thought provoking it was. While Ramsay no doubt takes it too far, that's what it took for Theon to drop his whole arrogant and childish demeanor and come to terms with what he's done, and what he ought to do going forward.

We also don't 'see' it happen, it's all flashback and reflection. George also explores some contraversial territory that other authors won't convey, that there are some straight up sick bastards in every world, real or imagined. It's horror and it's gross but symbolically for me, Ramsay literally stripping off his skin is like an unraveling of Theon's person - that deep down he's not a huge dick, and beneath those layers of brutality and selfishness was a boy/man who isn't altogether that bad. I can see why it can be too much for people, and I often struggled to read some of it, but it was also fascinating. I'd never read anything like that and particularly not in a non horror genre.

I was going to write something similar to what you wrote, but you expressed exactly my thoughts, only in way better words, i completely agree.

The way the narrative unfolds, where we don't witness most of the brutal parts of the torture, only seeing the results in a utterly broken and frightened Theon who don't even dares to remember who he is in effort to escape and forget all the terrible suffering he got through, to gradually recovering his mind, not as his old self, a different one with a different perspective of what he have done and become.

With all the talking about redemption , it is or not what the character deserve, all the hate/love/forgive, for the most part is misplaced in my opinion, what i really think it is just great to read such great character and narrative development. And that's what worries me accompanying the show, they already hasted part of Theon reflection and regret in previous episodes, and if they go to explicitly with all the torture maybe will be perceived by the public as something gratuitous and unnecessary, it could be a huge waste.

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Yeah I am not sure whether he has been flayed or gelded. And that not knowing is the worst thing about it. If they do it 'right', then they will make clear that 'something' happens but never let on precisely what. I am dreading hearing "Please, cut it off. Please!"

@ IceManCeasar - Its not that people 'love' it because they are happy with the story, its because of what the story does to you as a reader.

Firstly there is the whole struggle of a man going through an extraordinary ordeal and yet still has that tiny piece of himself inside. That tiny spark that refused to die. Theon will have a very important part to play by the end I have no doubt.

Secondly there is how the story makes the reader examine themselves. Theon was a villain. In typical fiction once the villain gets their come-uppance their story is done. GRRM isn't letting this be a typical fiction, or perhaps he is even saying that the typical 'villain getting their come-uppance' trope is a convenient lie we tell to ourselves. We are forced to examine our own justifications for what happens.

I honestly feel that those who say "Theon deserves everything" are just trying to deal with the shock. Its what I was doing when I first read it. GRRM would give you a brick to the face and you think 'Seven hells, thats.... just...... wrong"

(insert emotional turmoil)

(activate defence rationalisation)

"Well he is a villain so he deserves it!"

- Then GRRM smacks you in the face again and again and again until it gets harder to rationalise it away.

The reason why the Theon story is so 'loved' by people isn't because of what GRRM does to him, its because of what he does to you.

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Cheers for all the input! I'm thinking I won't be able to really understand it unless I read the books but the fact that the torture stuff is all past tense/memories changes things. I've gained a better perspective and I think my problem is with how the show is handling it, not with the books. It's interesting to look at this is an extreme redemption story as well as pushing the readers limit's of wanting to see a villain "get what's coming to him." Can someone lose literally everything including their identity and still rise again and find redemption? I can see now why people love the storyline in the book, raises a lot of interesting questions. I knew I was missing something.

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One of the biggest failings of the show is to not show more graphic torture of Theon. So far we have seen very little if anything done to him.

Perhaps they are saving the castration for the last few episodes but it definitely needs to be included and hopefully they will be brave enough to show it, but perhaps from a suitable distance. If you think of the scene where Joff had the lads tongue removed, I would see the same thing for Theon.

Ramsey and Roose or whomever could be speaking, and it the background you see Ramsey's men de-junk Theon.

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The biggest failing of this arc so far is being aimless and seemingly pointless to viewers who don't already know what's going on, not failing to show graphic torture. It would be completely pointless to make the torture more explicit, that's not what this storyline needs at all. Your imagination is always worse than what they could show on screen.

After Jaime's stump this episode I could see them showing a little gore, but I sincerely hope they don't drag Theon's story out with a lot of repetitive "hey, remember this guy? he's still getting tortured. gross huh?? well, time to go~" scenes when there's better things to spend time on.

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Two big reasons they are showing Theon's torture/descent into Reek.

- Establish Ramsay. When Joffers dies, they'll need a good villain to take his place. Ramsay proves himself in ADWD to be worse than Joffrey, but no one wants to wait that long since Joff will be dead by early next season (possibly this season but I don't think so). Sure, there are plenty of villainous characters, but dudes like Roose and Tywin are classy villains, and Littlefinger is a sneaky one. It's better to keep in a plain psycho for contrast. Also, readers have seen him before this point. He's introduced in what would be season 2, but his plotline got moved and streamlined to this season since it would've been too much for season 2.

- Fill in Theon's absence. In ADWD, Theon remembers the tortures visited on him and we get disturbed, in addition to the awfulness his present state. The show doesn't use flashbacks or internal narration. The book is able to show how he goes from Theon to Reek but it would be too much of a shift for TV as we aren't in his head. It's better for viewers to see it.

- On a more technical side, the actors need a block of time for contracts. Actors leaving the show for two seasons and returning as main characters are hard to swing because of their schedules. Plus, his arc last season ended on way too much of a cliffhanger for him to disappear that long.

I don't think it's wrong to find Theon's plotline compelling. Yes, it's gruesome and painful, but the actors are really talented. Some people watch TV to be emotionally invested. I like his storyline because it's moving and has a lot of character development. I don't think it's going to be "hmm, what can we do to abuse Theon?" every ep for two seasons.

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All I hope is that Theon's journey will be as horrible as it was in the book.

When you see how they turned Arya's captivity in Harrenhal into "summer camp with grandpa Lannister", there is a chance they will tone down the torture and psychological torment.

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