[BOOK SPOILERS] About the depiction of Theon's torture on the show(SPOILERS!)

[Ravi Seaworth]

There is one important aspect about this, which I am not sure if it had already been mentioned. The books tell a story from points of view. Using this technique, it is possible, in the books, to first demonstrate how broken reek is and slowly reveal his true identity as Theon, by recalling some of the gruesome torture acts performed by Ramsay. This is totally impossible to depict in TV. Furthermore, they had to keep the actor during this season, since he was an audience favorite. Therefore, the only logical solution to this problem is to show all the torture he went through. This storyline also helps to gradually build the Boltons as villains. They are rushing these scenes for the RW, when I believe they will reveal Ramsay's identity.

[Conchobar]

All I hope is that Theon's journey will be as horrible as it was in the book.

When you see how they turned Arya's captivity in Harrenhal into "summer camp with grandpa Lannister", there is a chance they will tone down the torture and psychological torment.p

lol, I fuckin hope not.

[Hiram McDrogon]

There is the whole struggle of a man going through an extraordinary ordeal and yet still has that tiny piece of himself inside. That tiny spark that refused to die. Theon will have a very important part to play by the end I have no doubt.

Cool. I can't believe the Gollum/Theon parallel never occurred to me before - I'm not sure if you're deliberately near-quoting Gandalf here, but thanks for helping me think of that!

[ChromeWeasel]

Im surprised to see several people that expect Theon's genital mutilation to be part of the show. HBO has taken most of that kind of physical brutality out of the story. Cost is a factor, but showing torture is always going to be very touchy. I'll be surprised if we get much of the descent into Reek.

[Tirilei]

GRRM would give you a brick to the face and you think 'Seven hells, thats.... just...... wrong"

(insert emotional turmoil)

(activate defence rationalisation)

"Well he is a villain so he deserves it!"

- Then GRRM smacks you in the face again and again and again until it gets harder to rationalise it away.

That's an interesting description there. More and more, from what I read here about the books, it sounds as if he created a world without hope.

[AliKat]

I'm one of the people that feels that the Theon/Ramsey story has been given too much air time this season. Considering that certain character storylines will flat out end this season completely - they should have put off Theon/Ramsey until Season 4 IMO or at least less of it now. He's had more screen time than Robb, Cat or Jon from what I can tell. I get that everyone ended up liking Alfie's Theon a lot and I think he's played it brilliantly. I never liked the character and never will but don't want to see him being tortured for 2-3 seasons. I don't want to see anyone tortured for extended periods of time - not even ones like Joffrey! Its a bit much for anyone to watch.

That said, I don't know why they have devoted SO much time to him and so little to other more important characters at the moment (he's had more screen time than Stannis and Davos as well!) Give me some Robb or Cat for a few episodes or Jon, Tormund, and Ygritte doing the Wildling things and bypass the flaying please.

[Tone]

Curious if they will have another escape sequence with Theon. Maybe introduce Kyra? Have them escape together and Ramsay hunt them down. They have to do more than just have him tortured on the X for S4.

[IceManCeaserKOTN]

One of the biggest failings of the show is to not show more graphic torture of Theon. So far we have seen very little if anything done to him.

Perhaps they are saving the castration for the last few episodes but it definitely needs to be included and hopefully they will be brave enough to show it, but perhaps from a suitable distance. If you think of the scene where Joff had the lads tongue removed, I would see the same thing for Theon.

Ramsey and Roose or whomever could be speaking, and it the background you see Ramsey's men de-junk Theon.

Yikes...

Anyways, I have my own theories as to why it's in the book/show but that's for another day. I don't think the people wanting torture scenes will be disappointed. They skipped all the great stuff that builds Ramsay as a villain before he captures Theon and are solely using the torture to do it. It's pretty clear they want to show the torture stuff, gets people talking about the show in a "OMG did you see what they're doing to Theon" way. Lazy, but effective.

Given my tastes I don't think i will ever enjoy this storyline even with looking for a deeper meaning but I understand why others could now. We'll have to see Theon's story fully play out but a lot of my questions will be answered when we see if there is any true redemption for his character.

[teemo]

I don't know. It's HBO and they can do whatever they want, but as an example (someone mentioned above), I was so excited about Arya's brutal journey in book 2 with the Mountain's clan and her time at Harrenhal, and then instead she spends most of her time in a cozy job with the affable Tywin Lannister, who was acting like her grandpa. Maybe Theon and Ramsay will become BFF for all I know.

[Joyful Union]

I don't know. It's HBO and they can do whatever they want, but as an example (someone mentioned above), I was so excited about Arya's brutal journey in book 2 with the Mountain's clan and her time at Harrenhal, and then instead she spends most of her time in a cozy job with the affable Tywin Lannister, who was acting like her grandpa. Maybe Theon and Ramsay will become BFF for all I know.

I thought that in the books, most of her time at Harrenhal was being a servant to Roose, or scrubbing steps for Weese.

[I'll pay the iron price]

I think Theons gelding may be suggested even if its not actually shown on TV

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I don't know. It's HBO and they can do whatever they want, but as an example (someone mentioned above), I was so excited about Arya's brutal journey in book 2 with the Mountain's clan and her time at Harrenhal, and then instead she spends most of her time in a cozy job with the affable Tywin Lannister, who was acting like her grandpa. Maybe Theon and Ramsay will become BFF for all I know.

She gets beaten a few times but otherwise she's just doing peasant work. I don't think anybody wants to actually see a 12 year old or close enough girl getting her ass beat (literally), nor would they want to film it. We see brutality before Tywin shows up and after that it's some awesome dialogue. Theon is different in that he's a grown man. Much easier to film that so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the showrunners hesitating to show a young girl getting molested.

[iheartseverus]

I can't think where else to ask this--browsing pics and background re Iwan Rheon as Ramsay, I keep running across this statement, as a caption on fanpics, etc. Its always presented in quotes, so its (duh) a quote from somebody somewhere. Anybody know what this is?

"The Boltons are cruel and cunning, but this one seems a beast in human skin."

[teemo]

She gets beaten a few times but otherwise she's just doing peasant work. I don't think anybody wants to actually see a 12 year old or close enough girl getting her ass beat (literally), nor would they want to film it. We see brutality before Tywin shows up and after that it's some awesome dialogue. Theon is different in that he's a grown man. Much easier to film that so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the showrunners hesitating to show a young girl getting molested.

I'm not going to fight over it, I just personally didn't like all of the changes. No, I didn't want it direct from book to show, but I did feel Arya's storyline was watered down overall and was disappointed. So I'll just a

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I didn't mean it in an argumentative manner, I just meant that Arya's storyline not being so brutal is not really indicative of whether or not Theon's will be, since depicting brutality toward such a young girl is not really in the same ballpark as it would be toward a grown man.

Although they did show a newborn baby getting stabbed with a dagger in S2 so really none of us know what's coming lol.

My apologies if I came off as fighting.

[ServantOnIce]

Yeah, my feeling is that they will show a scene about it that will leave no doubt it happened. Probably not graphic; we won't see any close ups.

Just like how in the books the Loras and Renly homosexual relationship was only hinted at, but HBO left no doubt about it.

Yep, same for Mel and Stannis having sexual intercourse. The show goes lowest common denominator at times. But that is why television is inferior to literature.

[PhoenixFlame]

I can't think where else to ask this--browsing pics and background re Iwan Rheon as Ramsay, I keep running across this statement, as a caption on fanpics, etc. Its always presented in quotes, so its (duh) a quote from somebody somewhere. Anybody know what this is?

"The Boltons are cruel and cunning, but this one seems a beast in human skin."

It's a quote from ADWD, referring to Ramsay. I'm pretty sure it's Glover talking to Davos.

[The Bear]

I don't know why people think the torture is too brutal for HBO. Did anyone ever see Oz? Brutal graphic rapes, guy gets burned alive, "cut" and has his member shoved in his mouth, guy beats another guy bloody and defecates in his mouth... all onscreen, and that was back in the nineties. It was every bit as bad as Theon's torture in a lot of ways, and the whole series was built around it, more or less.

I kinded of LOLed at 'only had his dick flayed' because god, that is about as bad as you can get with genital mutilation. I don't really care about the torture (as in how it's depicted) as long as Ramsay and Theon are characterised properly and Theon's descent into Reek and change back to Theon is done justice.

[teemo]

I don't know why people think the torture is too brutal for HBO. Did anyone ever see Oz? Brutal graphic rapes, guy gets burned alive, "cut" and has his member shoved in his mouth, guy beats another guy bloody and defecates in his mouth... all onscreen, and that was back in the nineties. It was every bit as bad as Theon's torture in a lot of ways, and the whole series was built around it, more or less.

I kinded of LOLed at 'only had his dick flayed' because god, that is about as bad as you can get with genital mutilation. I don't really care about the torture (as in how it's depicted) as long as Ramsay and Theon are characterised properly and Theon's descent into Reek and change back to Theon is done justice.

True that...I'm a long-time HBO fanatic and Oz is one of the most sexually fucked up shows I've ever seen. I doubt GoT would go nearly as far as that, but they could. HBO has made it very clear over the years that they don't care how far shows wants to go. Oz was actually started as an experiment in a way to see how far they could go on television, and there weren't any real rules and they had 100% total creative freedom and couldn't believe the stuff HBO would let them do. HBO execs always said, "Do what you want!" It was a really interesting anything-goes experiment that actually turned into a really, really good show. Point is, HBO is really down with whatever the show wants.

And I laughed at that line too :P

[The Bear]

Yup, I totally agree with you. We don't have HBO in Australia, but we have a channel that calls itself 'the home of HBO' and is generally where HBO shows go during their initial run. Oz was one of the few shows to never get reruns on different channels, I assume because of how screwed up it was.

So I firmly believe, having watched the whole series of Oz, that nothing in ASoIaF is off limits. Disemboweled kids, Theon being flayed, it's all good.