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If Arya was indeed to dispose of her sense of self, as per FM training, would that sever her connection to Nymeria?


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#1 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:50 PM

Granted, since she went all "Go on! Git!" to Nymeria to prevent her from being killed, she hasn't had the same opportunity to bond with her direwolf as Robb/Grey Wind, Bran/Summer, Rickon/Shaggydog, or Jon/Ghost. Yet and still, she does still have wolf dreams, like Bran & Jon have shown to (and, IMO, Rickon also has, if only because Shaggydog is as petulant and wild like that little doucher is). Obviously, Sansa/Lady is excluded here, as it was ended well before it started.

Now the general concensus seems to be that Arya will not complete her Faceless Man training, and will remain Arya Stark. But what if she does wind up commiting completely, disposing of Needle, and losing her identity as Arya Stark. She will reject herself, all she was, and all she could have been. The Direwolves have been shown to be quite intertwined to the Stark childrens personalities, and by theoretical extension, their identities as well.

Now if Arya were to completely relinquish her identity, and Arya Stark as we knew her died, what would come of her bond with Nymeria? I don't think the wolf dreams would continue, nor would a face to face between Nymeria and Sexually Ambiguous Dark Haired Person have an outcome like a reunion between Arya and Nymeria.

I will admit that the thought is intriguing of a future mission for (Not)Arya in the Riverlands that, after she kills whomever she must, finds herself surrounded by Nymeria's pack. (N)Arya realizes she's found Nymeria, and calls out to her, only for Nymeria to not recognize her, and the packs proceeds to shred (N)Arya into little morsels.

#2 The Storm King

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:52 PM

IMO arya wont lose her identity completely. so she'll still have her connection with nymeria.

#3 Downright Daario

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

As long as Nymeria is alive, she will have a connection to her old self.

#4 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:55 PM

IMO arya wont lose her identity completely. so she'll still have her connection with nymeria.


I can't see her remaining Arya while also fully joining the Faceless Men. The Kindly Man will see her inability to relinquish who she is, and in due time, he'd send her on her way as opposed to letting a possibly compromised agent making emotional decisions on the field... Either she leaves as Arya, or stays as No One.

#5 StarkDragon

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:58 PM

I wonder. Does the connection to the direwolf become an extension of self identity, or does it become a physical extension of self?

#6 The Storm King

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:01 PM

I can't see her remaining Arya while also fully joining the Faceless Men. The Kindly Man will see her inability to relinquish who she is, and in due time, he'd send her on her way as opposed to letting a possibly compromised agent making emotional decisions on the field... Either she leaves as Arya, or stays as No One.


so far she's been able to keep her identity. arya will become a proficient liar. Theyre teaching her how to lie. once she does this how will the kindly man know the truth?

#7 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:08 PM

I wonder. Does the connection to the direwolf become an extension of self identity, or does it become a physical extension of self?


There is certainly a physical aspect of it (ie. Skinchanging/Warging), but I do believe the real connection is of self identity. The direwolves seem to reflect aspects of their respective owner's personalities, ie Shaggydog being overly tempermental and unstable, like a tantrum throwing toddler, Summer being far more subdued than the other direwolves, more apt to observe and think rather than go on the offensive, Grey Wind a relatively quiet, yet intimidating presence with swift lethality, and Ghost being a loner, apt to strike out on his own, yet fiercely protective of those "he" cares for.

so far she's been able to keep her identity. arya will become a proficient liar. Theyre teaching her how to lie. once she does this how will the kindly man know the truth?


Perhaps you're right, in that she'll eventually be able to decieve the Kindly Man... I just don't think she'll truly be able to get to that point. ASoIaF is a world of grey, but I truly believe this situation to be black or white, commit or not commit.

#8 Reek Da Villain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

One aspect of her Starkness that he hasn't shed is her ability to warg. And she has kept that ability to herself, even used it to aid her in her training. Also, she kept Needle. Arya will always be Arya and Nymeria will always be bonded to her. They'll be reunited.

#9 StarkDragon

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:15 PM

There is certainly a physical aspect of it (ie. Skinchanging/Warging), but I do believe the real connection is of self identity. The direwolves seem to reflect aspects of their respective owner's personalities, ie Shaggydog being overly tempermental and unstable, like a tantrum throwing toddler, Summer being far more subdued than the other direwolves, more apt to observe and think rather than go on the offensive, Grey Wind a relatively quiet, yet intimidating presence with swift lethality, and Ghost being a loner, apt to strike out on his own, yet fiercely protective of those "he" cares for.


Hmm, a very reasonable argument.

#10 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:15 PM

One aspect of her Starkness that he hasn't shed is her ability to warg. And she has kept that ability to herself, even used it to aid her in her training. Also, she kept Needle. Arya will always be Arya and Nymeria will always be bonded to her. They'll be reunited.


I feel that's the primary reason she WON'T become a true member of the guild, she won't commit fully. I personally believe that she'll exit the guild, but utilize her training for her own agenda. That being said, in my theory, I said she fully commited, ditched Needle (which is more of a tether to her identity than her wolf dreams. Remember, she thinks they're dreams, like when she pulled Cat's corpse from the water while sleep warging Nymeria. If she knew of her power, I think she'd be more commited than Bran in learning to master it, as a pack of hundreds of wolves would aid her in her vengeance most wonderfully), and let go of her self. I guess this is more of a "What If..." thread, but still, I think she'd lose that connection if she abandoned being a Stark, essentially.

#11 KOM

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:21 PM

I feel that's the primary reason she WON'T become a true member of the guild, she won't commit fully.

that

#12 Blue Sun

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

It's a magical connection and outside something she could possiby even let go if she wanted to. As for becoming committed to the FM, she is and will be going full faceless.

#13 Dagon Greyjoy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

Nymeria is most likely the reason why she won't be able to give up her former identity: The wolf dreams will still be there to remind her.

She'll leave the Faceless Men half-trained, as Arya: She'd have learnt some stuff from them, but not the whole shtick.

Edited by Dagon Greyjoy, 02 May 2013 - 08:31 PM.


#14 Fire Eater

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

It's not something she voluntarily chooses. She will keep having wolf dreams whether she likes it or not.

#15 Gingerchu

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:36 PM

The Faceless Men kill people making it look like accidents and what looks more like an accident than a pack of wolves on a hunting trip.... Just saying if you have the tools you should probably use them

#16 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:36 PM

It's a magical connection and outside something she could possiby even let go if she wanted to. As for becoming committed to the FM, she is and will be going full faceless.


That does open the door to her learning to warg, and utilizing the pack to attack, making it look like a accident.

::EDIT::


The Faceless Men kill people making it look like accidents and what looks more like an accident than a pack of wolves on a hunting trip.... Just saying if you have the tools you should probably use them


Ninja'd

Edited by Strongest Of All Belwas, 02 May 2013 - 08:37 PM.


#17 Gingerchu

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:12 PM

That does open the door to her learning to warg, and utilizing the pack to attack, making it look like a accident.

::EDIT::




Ninja'd


It's a good thing I forgot what else I was going to type then /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#18 Lady Shadow Cat

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

I wonder. Does the connection to the direwolf become an extension of self identity, or does it become a physical extension of self?


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> With the bold. And also what FireEater said. They happen without her will or consent, and they will keep happening imho.

#19 The Sleeper

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:11 AM

The way I see it, committing to the FM is about making choices and adopting new priorities, not about getting a personality transplant, which is after all impossible. Also the bond between the wolves developed naturally without any effort from the children and the reflecting personalities is a consequence of their mutual influence. In other words they are not linked because they have similar personalities, they have similar personalities because their linked.
Arya herself is very commited to the FM for three reasons. Two of them that she is very aware of. They are the only reliable shelter she has found where she receives foods, shelter, education and is not being mistreated for the first time since she escaped the Red Keep. The second is that Arya wants power, they have it and are willing to let her in. The third reason is that the detouchment they espouse is a way to deal with the loss and trauma she has sufffered.
The contradiction lies in her desire for power. While the FM offer it, Nymeria embodies that aspect of Arya that is strong and powerfull, predator not prey. So the very thing that she is pushing toward the FM is the very thing that she needs to keep from them.

Edited by just an Other, 03 May 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#20 Blue Sun

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:26 AM

The way I see it, committing to the FM is about making choices and adopting new priorities, not about getting a personality transplant, which is after all impossible.


The new priorities they adopt are whatever the FM say they will, but yes, it is a choice, as Arya has been given many. As for getting a personality transplant, that's exactly what the FM are about. Also, there's a magic aspect to it, so getting a personality transplant is entirely possible.

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 03 May 2013 - 02:27 AM.