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Jon and Ygritte in Hindsight


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62 replies to this topic

#1 Moon-Pale Maiden

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

We know Jon cared very deeply for Ygritte, but do you think Jon was truly in love with the wildling girl?

Do you think Ygritte was in love with Jon?

Do you think it was right for Jon to leave in the manner he did?

Should Jon have tried to save Ygritte during the battle?

Do you think Ygritte was aiming to kill Jon with that arrow or had she meant to simply stop him, knowing that he'd be killed for running?

In hindsight, how could Jon have handled the Ygritte situation better? Or do you think he had no choices and did the best he could in a difficult situation?

#2 eggs

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

How long did they even know each other?

#3 Fire Eater

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:01 PM

Jon was in love with the girl.

Ygritte was in love with Jon, or else why defend him and sleep with him.

If Jon hadn't left, CB would have fallen. He had to leave at the what was likely the only chance he was about to get.

Jon was busy defending the Wall and trying to not get killed during the Battle of CB. How could have saved her with a wounded leg? He would have needed to take up arms against his black brothers to save her.

I think she meant to stop him.

He had little options, and made the best he could out of the situation.

#4 Ygrain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:41 PM

There was certainly shared affection but I'm not sure it was love. I believe that Ygritte murdering the old man would have been an issue that Jon wouldn't be able to put up with.

He had no choice, he couldn't stay with the Wildling and the chances that he would sneak out somehow were minimum.

I have no idea, since stopping him would have been the death of him from Magnar.

There was no saving Ygritte in the circumstances of the fight. Plus, she chose to go, fully knowing that she would face him there.

I can't see a good solution for them.

#5 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:46 PM

She might have been his 'first love' but I don't think she was his 'true love'. If she survived it wouldn't have lasted.

#6 bbstark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:52 PM

I think there's a good reason Ygritte wanted to just stay in the cave. Even though they did love each other (and they did), I dont think Ygritte fully believed Jon had left the NW; she wanted to, but she didn't.

It's like that guy(or girl, whatever you prefer) you date, you KNOW is wrong for you, and half of your brain is lying to the other half (he's soooo special!) that is sitting around waiting for him to make that dreaded mistake.
In other words, she knew it wasn't a question of if he'd go back, but when.
If they had just stayed in the cave, they wouldn't have had to answer any of those questions.
Circumstances are usually the quite destructive for most young loves.
Love isn't necessarily forever.

For Jon and Ygritte, the time and space in which their love existed was beyond the wall, in that cave.

#7 Direwolfsigil

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:15 AM

In hindsight, how could Jon have handled the Ygritte situation better? Or do you think he had no choices and did the best he could in a difficult situation?


I think the scene where Jon flees shows how different they really are. Even though sometimes people say he has a Wildling side, it's clearly Stark honor we see in this incident. Jon refuses to slit the innocent old man's throat, while Ygritte doesn't mind slashing it open and screaming " I ain't no Crow's wife!" Do I blame her? No, being a free woman she can't really ever seem intimidated and is constantly seeking to prove she's not a weak woman over and over and over. Val is so not like ygritte its not even funny, Val doesnt feel like she has to prove a damn thing from what I've seen.
The distance between them ( and also the wall) will always be there. it was a first love thing, and those are brief for some.
I like how this applied too.

It's like that guy(or girl, whatever you prefer) you date, you KNOW is wrong for you, and half of your brain is lying to the other half (he's soooo special!) that is sitting around waiting for him to make that dreaded mistake.

Its not like they were gonna get married and have a happy ending with wildling children, IMO it was a fling with 2 people that come from different worlds.
Later, Jon will eliminate the barrier between the two, but it sure doesnt matter to Ygritte, because shes dead.

Edited by Direwolfsigil, 03 May 2013 - 12:19 AM.


#8 Batman

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:20 AM

Ygritte was in love with Jon, or else why defend him and sleep with him.



She wanted a crack at him?

#9 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:22 AM

Lust ain't love.

#10 Mammothsbane

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:34 AM

What is love?

Baby don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. No more.

Seriously though, I think there was legitimate strong affection not only for her (obviously) but for the culture of the free folk. I think if the WIldlings weren't marching on the Wall, he'd have stayed with them. I think there is a part of him that regrets not staying in that cave with her. His feelings however, similar to Ned, come second to his duty and his honor

#11 Tagganaro

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:35 AM

I think it was love. They talked about spending the rest of their lives together in that Cave, and to my memory they both sounded pretty genuine about it. I imagine that if they were not so "different" (by that I mean NW vs Wildling mostly, in the midst of a war), I believe they would have been perfectly content to spend the rest of their lives together. I guess that's love.

And yes, Jon was right to leave in the manner he did. In his mind at least, he was still loyal to the NW, Qhorin, and the Old Bear. He knew the NW was in extreme danger, and that was his only chance.

As for Ygritte, I do think she was trying to kill him, or at the very least didn't care much either way. At that point, if she had simply "stopped" Jon he'd be dead anyway, because Magnar would kill him. And for Ygritte's part, she knew Jon had essentially "abandoned" her and chose the NW, so he was in her way.

In hindsight, I don't see Jon handling that situation much better. If we are to look at that in terms of his duty to the NW, there is nothing Jon could do better. He had to sleep with her to keep his cover, he did so, and then basically ended up saving the NW from being slaughtered before Mance and his host even got there. Not much you could ask him to do differently.

#12 Gronzag

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:36 AM

He liked her and lusted her, but he most certainly was not in love with her. She, on the other hand, had a serious crush on him

#13 Qhorin Fivehands

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:37 AM

No I think he was in love with her. He mentions very often in his ASOS chapters that he would never break his vows, but he did, and he didn't feel bad about it because he loved her.

#14 Direwolfsigil

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:41 AM

He liked her and lusted her, but he most certainly was not in love with her. She, on the other hand, had a serious crush on him

No I think he was in love with her. He mentions very often in his ASOS chapters that he would never break his vows, but he did, and he didn't feel bad about it because he loved her.


I think might just come down to your personal perception of the words, as a whole.
Love is a tough word to define.
Jon might have even said he loved her, but that's his POV, and hes 15 and she was his first girl.

He thinks about her smell, her body, her hair, her smile, and her ferocity alot, thats love to some people and to others its obsession.

Edited by Direwolfsigil, 03 May 2013 - 12:42 AM.


#15 Dagon Greyjoy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:45 AM

There was certainly shared affection but I'm not sure it was love. I believe that Ygritte murdering the old man would have been an issue that Jon wouldn't be able to put up with.

He had no choice, he couldn't stay with the Wildling and the chances that he would sneak out somehow were minimum.

I can't see a good solution for them.



There was a plenty good solution: Staying Wildling for real, like many others before him. He could have helped the Wildlings take Castle Black and take over the Night's Watch lands and fortifications. He was better trained and most certainly better geared than the average wildling: He could have had a good life with the free folk, became a respected leader. Maybe even stood a chance at usurping the title of King Beyond the Wall when Mance was old and weak, or maybe seized it after Mance's death.

With his inside knowledge of the Night's Watch, the wildlings would have had a crushing victory. He chose the Watch. He made the wrong choice. And Jon Snow doesn't even regret it.

Edited by Dagon Greyjoy, 03 May 2013 - 01:46 AM.


#16 Mikkel

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:59 AM

There was a plenty good solution: Staying Wildling for real, like many others before him. He could have helped the Wildlings take Castle Black and take over the Night's Watch lands and fortifications. He was better trained and most certainly better geared than the average wildling: He could have had a good life with the free folk, became a respected leader. Maybe even stood a chance at usurping the title of King Beyond the Wall when Mance was old and weak, or maybe seized it after Mance's death.

With his inside knowledge of the Night's Watch, the wildlings would have had a crushing victory. He chose the Watch. He made the wrong choice. And Jon Snow doesn't even regret it.


Other than your conclusion that he made the wrong choice, I agree. He could have done all those things. But they would have made him miserable, despite his illusions being somewhat shattered by reality, Jon still believes that the NW is a noble cause (and presents the entire continent's first and best defense against the White Walkers but that wasn't really an issue at the time he was forced to choose).

#17 Dagon Greyjoy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:25 AM

Why would he have been miserable? I don't buy it. He might have actually been much happier without having to take any shit from anybody and without artificial constraints on his life. Besides, once the Night's Watch had been disbanded after the wildling victory, he would no longer even be a deserter: There wouldn't be a Watch to be a deserter from. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#18 Ygrain

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:39 AM

There was a plenty good solution: Staying Wildling for real, like many others before him. He could have helped the Wildlings take Castle Black and take over the Night's Watch lands and fortifications. He was better trained and most certainly better geared than the average wildling: He could have had a good life with the free folk, became a respected leader. Maybe even stood a chance at usurping the title of King Beyond the Wall when Mance was old and weak, or maybe seized it after Mance's death.

With his inside knowledge of the Night's Watch, the wildlings would have had a crushing victory. He chose the Watch. He made the wrong choice. And Jon Snow doesn't even regret it.

And why should he choose the life of a Wildling? He never wanted it, never was interested in it. He did come to appreciate some of its aspects, it helped his personal development and enabled him to perceive the Wildling as human beings, not just some bestial savages, but why should it be a better choice for him? He chose what he believed was more important in his life, and I can't see why he should get any flak for it.

Oh, and BTW, how much time would he have for your rose-coloured Disney scenario with the winter and Others coming? Have you forgotten the reason why Mance gathered the tribes in the first place?

#19 danm_999

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:46 AM

Why would he have been miserable? I don't buy it. He might have actually been much happier without having to take any shit from anybody and without artificial constraints on his life. Besides, once the Night's Watch had been disbanded after the wildling victory, he would no longer even be a deserter: There wouldn't be a Watch to be a deserter from. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


Besides the shame of murdering an innocent man? Besides the notion of Quorin's order of "do whatever is required of you" being thrown aside? Besides betraying the memory of his family, his brothers (blood and Black) and friends?

Jon would be miserable because he'd just handed the realm, maybe all human life, up to the Others, who now no longer have any problem bypassing the Wall. Long Night 2.0 here we come.

#20 Baelor Brightflame

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:48 AM

I don't think he loved her. I don't think she loved him. To both of them it was like Jon went to Europe and got together with some foreign chick and they had a summer to remember and then he went back home where he belonged. It was a fling and only that. They were exotic to each other and wanted to experience what it felt like.