Jon and Ygritte in Hindsight

[finger]

Seriously. It was a process.

Among the interesting things in this series is that characters can change. They receive influences from outside and change their views.

Jon Snow knew nothing of the wildlings. They saw them as the enemy. People his side of the Wall only dealed with the most agresive of the wildlings, those who climbed the Wall to raid, and steal, murder or rape. Quorin is kinda usher into wildling world. He takes Jon to their territory, and forces his first real contact (btw, it has something to do with the northern lord executing the death penalty). Quorin had him killing a sentry, then a girl, that he couldn't. Finally, he sends him to share their life. Jon rejects them at the beggining. He notices that he's making friends, and falling in love, and this is against his former notions. Those are his foes, he shouldn't love them. As times passes, he sees that killing them will be harder and harder. He wants to keep his vows (aka to be a NW's brother) but he can't help to be getting fond of those he's meant to kill. Ygritte's death makes him feel pain for killing.

IMO, this sejour with the wildlings is fundamental to understand how he acts in the aftermath. They're not wildlings, but just people beyond the Wall. His people, as much as any other.

[Thendel]

He was 15 and stupid and thought he was in love and was torn between his duty and his new found love and then convinced himself that duty led him to Ygritte,If he was a smarter kid he'd have thought his decision on whether to sleep with her or not through,He could have told her he was gay or something the wildlings seem to be more accepting of that sort of things.

That's assuming we've actually heard about the common wildling's stance on homosexuality, and to my knowledge, we haven't. Lacking that, one could look at the northmen, who aren't that culturally different, and see that homosexuality is barely acknowledged (re: why no one talks too loudly of how Whoresbane Umber's killed a male prostitute).

But even then, I think it's a fair guess that Jon declaring himself to be gay as an excuse not to sleep with Ygritte would have been met with suspicion, and that would have been kind of counterproductive in regards to Jon's attempt to blend in.

In my view, Jon had very few tools that could be used to deflect suspicion had his disposal, and breaking his vow of celibacy was one of them. In other words, he had to sleep with her (or any wildling girl, for that matter), especially after she convinced Mance to give him another chance. Falling for the girl afterwards would have been next to impossible for any 15 year old, so I don't see how we can place undue blame on Jon for the way things played out.

[Frey Pie]

Mutual attraction and affection for each other. Could have turned into love given time but seen as they knew each other a few months I couldn't call it love

I don't see how it could have turned out different really unless Jon completely foreswore his vows. And Yrgitte isn't all that nice- kill the old man and all that

[Amadeo78]

Yes

Yes

Yes

No

No

Important things to keep in mind. Jon had avoided being intimate with a woman because he was a bastard. Even though he had to sleep with Ygritte to maintain his "cover" the way he talks about her show him moving from accepting to loving. I mean he checked to see if it was his arrow that killed her. She was his test. He was prepared to kill the Halfhand and had been prepped. Killing the old man who'd seen the wilding group was a crossroads. Do something he feels is wrong or give in and continue on a path that would not only see the death of his brothers but, allow an event to take place that would challenge his stance in regards to the Others. Ygritte was the only reason it was a hard moment. He had no problem returning to his brothers. It was leaving her and later knowing he was fighting on the opposite side of a battle against her that gave him any real pain. In the end he couldn't have handled it any better. His stand upon principle required sacrificing Ygritte. In an interesting way it ties into the Azor Ahai prophecy. His belief in his mission was the sword that he plunged into his wife (Ygritte) in order to defeat the darkness.

[lostinwesteros]

So many kinds/degrees of 'love'. I cheated and looked up http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2013/01/01/what-is-love/

The two I like best are:

1. According to Anais Nin, "What is love but acceptance of the other, whatever he [or she] is."
   
2. According to Antoine de Saint-Exupery, "Love does not consist of gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction."
   

That second definition might be a little trite, as it's used so much, but it fits what I think about Jon and Ygritte. They did love one another but couldn't look outward in the same direction. Each had to be together with his/her 'side' when the wall was attacked. I don't think either could have killed the other, though. What they had shared was genuine, if brief and a bit of "temporary madness" [another quote at that site]. When Ygritte shot Jon, didn't the arrow go in his leg? Ygritte's aim was pretty durn good -- if she'd really meant to kill him, she could/would have. Hope that's not too convoluted. :blushing:

[Twinslayer]

Jon did not love Ygritte. He found her scary, strange and physically unattractive. But like many teenage boys, he enjoyed the physical aspects even though he didn't have anything in common with her and he did not like her very much. To his credit, at least he felt a little guilty about it.

Also, GRRM needed him to have some experience when he meets Dany. But to excuse him from blame for breaking his NW vows, GRRM created a situation in which Jon had to break his vow of celibacy in order to serve a larger purpose. Ygritte was good plot device to get this done.

On the other hand, Ygritte probably did love him. Once she realized that he was just using her, she -- very understandably -- wanted revenge.

[WhiteOwl18]

I think there's a good reason Ygritte wanted to just stay in the cave. Even though they did love each other (and they did), I dont think Ygritte fully believed Jon had left the NW; she wanted to, but she didn't.

It's like that guy(or girl, whatever you prefer) you date, you KNOW is wrong for you, and half of your brain is lying to the other half (he's soooo special!) that is sitting around waiting for him to make that dreaded mistake.

In other words, she knew it wasn't a question of if he'd go back, but when.

If they had just stayed in the cave, they wouldn't have had to answer any of those questions.

Circumstances are usually the quite destructive for most young loves.

Love isn't necessarily forever.

For Jon and Ygritte, the time and space in which their love existed was beyond the wall, in that cave.

:agree:

[Gendels Children]

IMHO I believe Jon did love Ygritte, and Ygritte loved Jon. I don't think Jon truly wanted to love her but it happened anyway, in his mind I think we was trying to fight it, he knew things would never work out for them, he never actually told her he loved her, but he goes on about various things about her he loved. I think its silly to brush their relationship off as just a physical thing, yes Jon enjoyed the sex... duh.. but when he thought about their first time he said it was sweet, but what was dangerously sweet was the way she fell asleep with her head on his chest and in his arms afterwards. at another point he mentions that her singing stirred him emotionally, then also that when he saw her across from him in front of the fire, she was sitting on the ground hugging her knees and smiled at him, that stirred him also. he thinks about how he would love to take her to Winterfell and show her his world, make love with her in the hotspring pools in front of the Heartree for all gods and men to see, but he knew he couldn't. he notes later that if he had been given the option for Ygritte over Val he would have taken Stannis's offer. im sure there are more things I could pull up but I wont go too overboard. the fact he continues to think about her and talk to himself as if speaking to her after her death tells me it was much more than just affections and lust. they were both young, young people fall in love all the time, it doesn't always work out but its good when it lasts. unfortunately their relationship was doomed from the start.

[Gendels Children]

We know Jon cared very deeply for Ygritte, but do you think Jon was truly in love with the wildling girl?

Do you think Ygritte was in love with Jon?

yes I think they really did love each other

Do you think it was right for Jon to leave in the manner he did?

the romantic in me wants to say "no he should have stayed with her no matter what" but the epic nerd in me knows that it wasn't really an option, yes it would have been better for things to have been patched up nicely for them there, but tragedy like that is one of the reasons I love ASOIAF so much, its so deliciously unjust and unsatisfying in a satisfying way.. :s if that makes sense

Should Jon have tried to save Ygritte during the battle?

aww that would have been nice but not practical with all the commotion, not to mention his wounded leg and if he did rescue her there was no place for her story anymore, GRRM killed her off because she had served her purpose in Jons arc, her death also served a strong purpose too

Do you think Ygritte was aiming to kill Jon with that arrow or had she meant to simply stop him, knowing that he'd be killed for running?

I don't think she was trying to kill him, I think she just desperately didn't want him to abandon her, she is wild and (as with lots of us women) she was not always very rational when the emotions get flowing, it was probably also part anger with him for actually leaving her too

In hindsight, how could Jon have handled the Ygritte situation better? Or do you think he had no choices and did the best he could in a difficult situation?

its all relative I guess. besides Jons story was always supposed to be at the Wall, if anything had gone differently I still don't think they would have worked out ( :crying:) and it all helps with Jons mysterious, sorrowful, burdened, guilty, withdrawn, caring, dark, wounded, honourable and loyal character traits, which im sure was the whole idea behind Ygrittes placement in the story anyway... but still.... :crying:

[Not a kneeler]

He loved her, but not enough. He came to see the wildlings as people, but not his people. Jon was raised to be responsible, to be caretaker, a producer, and he knows the wildlings live off the production of others. They steal, they don't produce, they kill, they take what they want. They are a parastic society and Ygritte is a wildling to the core. The gulf between they cannot be bridged, and when Jon is talking about taking her to Winterfell, he knows it is just a dream. Having just seen the epsode of GOT show it is hard to separate this from the books. In the books the division between them is clearer.

How she feels about him is simpler because Ygritte is not a complicated person. She see what she wants and she takes it. In the show we see that she is a great shot, but remember that the show is not the books. In the books we don't know that she is a phenominal shot, but I would guess that she wanted to wound him. He was leaving her. We will never really know if she just wanted to hurt him back and still let him get away. If the shot had hit the horse, or wounded him more seriously he would have been done for and the wildlings would have killed him. So if she made the shot she meant to make, then she did let him get away. If so, then I say she did love him.

My take on it was that while she loved him, he was deeply taken with her, but not enough to abandon his mission, his honor, or his true self. He will regret her for a long time, but Jon if nothing else, knows that life is not a dream.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It was puppy love. And puppy love is as real as it can be.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I acknowledge that there was affection and respect for Ygritte but really fail to see how there was any more to it than that. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, Jon never tells Ygritte that he loves her nor does he confess to loving her in the books. He nostalgically remembers her and even says that there were things that he loved about her, but as far as I can see, there is no explicit admission of love. I believe that if he had truly loved her, he may have told her as she was dying in his arms. Why would he not tell her if that is how he genuinely felt?

And let's be honest, would Jon have chosen Ygritte himself had he not have been forced into the situation that he was placed into? I doubt very much that he would have even slept with her had she not have pressurised him to "prove" himself, let alone have chosen her as a partner. After all, there is no evidence that he initiated it in any way.

She seems to be a world apart from Jon, not just because of her Wildling origins but also morally and in mannerisms and character. By Westerosi standards, Jon is a gentleman, who might have been more inclined to choose someone who was more like himself had he have had the opportunity to do so. We see that when Jon is attracted to someone of his own free will, he still seems to admire independent women (Val is another example), however Val differs in other respects from Ygritte in the sense that she appears to be somewhat more principled, polite, sophisticated and quieter than Ygritte was (this is how it appears to me in any case especially judging from observations made by Mance Rayder).

Also, why the admiration for a character who helped goad Jon into killing Quorin, practically blackmailed him into sleeping with her and also killed an innocent and defenceless old man in cold blood? I see nothing redeemable in this girl and I can't imagine Jon would realistically have ever thought that they would have a future together, even barring the circumstances that surrounded them. He may have understandably admired her free spirit and independent will, and affection may have been fostered between them when he realised he had to become close to her in order to avoid blowing his cover. However, I cannot realistically think that Jon was passionately in love with a girl who acted as she did - they are surely too very different in practically every respect, and his memories of her may actually be induced by guilt, as much as by fondness. He feels guilty for her death because he essentially played a pivotal role in her demise and moreover, even though he probably had very little choice, he may feel that he betrayed her.

However, at the end of the day, although he seems to bear an enormous amount of guilt for her death, it may not have been too difficult a decision to betray her for the NW when all was said and done.

[Booknerd2]

This was experience for later. Jon is finding thing out about himself. He was attracted to her, and I think Val too. He likes his women earthy, and not high maintenance.

[tallTale]

He did love her but seeing her kill that old man soured that love and made leaving easier on him.

[The Bastard of Summer]

Do you think Ygritte was in love with Jon? Yes. Knowing the ways of her people she put her life in danger by defending him at the times that she did.

Do you think it was right for Jon to leave in the manner he did? Yes he was a man of his word. And by that I think he took his oath to the watch more seriously than any kind of emotion he felt for her. I don't think he loved her though more like infatuation.

Should Jon have tried to save Ygritte during the battle? No why risk his life for someone he didn't love. Again she risked her life from him out of love. His brothers would have killed him the same as her people would have killed her for the same reasons.

Do you think Ygritte was aiming to kill Jon with that arrow or had she meant to simply stop him, knowing that he'd be killed for running? She meant to kill him. She loved him and it would be better for her to kill him than her people they wouldnt have made it quick, and they had every intention on killing him.

In hindsight, how could Jon have handled the Ygritte situation better? Or do you think he had no choices and did the best he could in a difficult situation? I think he did the best he could. He was grateful to her for defending him and saving his life and curious about what it would be like to have a woman. So out of curiosity and obligation did he have a "relationship" with her. I don't think he ever planned to commit to her he always longed for the company of his brothers, and keeping his honor somewhat in tact by going back to them.

[Mikeygigs]

It was puppy love. And puppy love is as real as it can be.

I think it was a little more than just puppy love, but I agree with this statement in principle. Different levels of love, and certainly not what we would consider "true love," if such a thing exists.

Did she love him? Yeah, probably in the same way.

However, had they met after the Wildlings passed the Wall, I'm not sure if they'd have fallen for one another, to be honest. It was an in-the-moment kind of thing, I feel.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

I think there's a good reason Ygritte wanted to just stay in the cave. Even though they did love each other (and they did), I dont think Ygritte fully believed Jon had left the NW; she wanted to, but she didn't.

It's like that guy(or girl, whatever you prefer) you date, you KNOW is wrong for you, and half of your brain is lying to the other half (he's soooo special!) that is sitting around waiting for him to make that dreaded mistake.

In other words, she knew it wasn't a question of if he'd go back, but when.

If they had just stayed in the cave, they wouldn't have had to answer any of those questions.

Circumstances are usually the quite destructive for most young loves.

Love isn't necessarily forever.

For Jon and Ygritte, the time and space in which their love existed was beyond the wall, in that cave.

This^ Jon thought it was love and there's good evidence that Ygritte felt the same way.

Even if it was doomed, the way they interacted in the cave showed that it was love albeit laced with a healthy dose of lust.

[Yukle]

If Jon didn't actually love Ygritte then the significance of everything that followed his betrayal is lessened.

Interestingly, had Jon sided with the Wildings, and stayed with Ygritte, it's possible that he could've saved the Realm; the Wall needs to be held against the coming Others. The soldiers of Westeros were far away, and the Wildings easily have the numbers to man every castle of the Wall if they need to. Mance mentioned that it was his intention to use the Wall, not to break it. Jon could keep Ygritte and still try to salvage what is best for Westeros in the process. There's no guarantee, but he could.

He chooses duty and honour. The thought that it might be Ygritte's arrow in his leg upsets him and he seems genuinely heartbroken to cradle her dying body at Castle Black. Duty pulled him back to the Wall and he was forced to watch Ygritte die as a result. If he didn't love her, then it's just a simple logical decision to forewarn those at the Wall. But he loved her, and the impact of her death is therefore much worse because his decisions are part of the reason she died. He did have a possible future with her, he did have a chance to abandon his second-class life as a bastard and an outlaw, stuck forever to living no further from the Wall than the Gift.

It's one thing to be born Snow in a family of Starks. It's another thing to live with the freedom denied to you, to have a woman you love in your arms, to have a chance to abandon the rules that constrain you... and to turn back to a duty you feel is more important.

I think that Jon's last memory will be a sad wish to be back with Ygritte in the cave, safe from the world for those few hours, with nothing but her in his life.

[HouseHarrison]

How long did they even know each other?

In terms of pages/show hours, not very long. But in the actual story I believe it was at least a few months.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

If I were him I would have stuck with Ygrite, taken castle Black, overthrown the nights watch, got mance to legitamize me, married ygrite and declared myself the king of the North, gone and rebuilt winterfell, iced up all the entrances to the wall, settled all the wildings on the gift and made an alliance with them. then just chilled and let winter come!