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[BOOK SPOILERS] “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”


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#221 congokong

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

I'm not worshiping him - I'm simply giving credit where credit due!


You said he should be put on a pedestal. That's pretty much the definition of worship.

http://thesaurus.com...t on a pedestal

You mean the two that George entrusted with the show, the two to whom George revealed the entirety of his future plans, the two that are currently showrunners on one of (if not) the biggest, most successful and highest rated shows going around? Those two don't know the best route? I'm presuming you're basing your judgements here on "changes" that you disagree with?


The two that came to GRRM with the idea of going to HBO, and the two that led to him getting rich. As an answer to your last question, yes.

Edited by congokong, 07 May 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#222 Maester Murks

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

3. For those who suggest that Theon should only re-appear at the end of season 4 or in season 5: That will definitely not happen. When have you EVER seen a GOT character disappear for a whole season then randomly come back in the last 2 episodes like 'oh hey remember me? yeah i'm reek now' .


Well... Barristan was gone for 12 episodes. Doesn't mean it would have worked for Theon though.

I do like the scenes in this season so far, but to me Ramsay is a very different character, what with the babytalk and everything...

#223 Caryn Stark

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:30 PM

I am glad they are showing what goes on with Theon... I wonder how far they will go and if Ramsay will start sending love notes around the realm.

I also don't think that they could convincingly recast the actor playing Theon. That would just be bad business and it wouldn't work. This isn't Days of Our Lives or some other daytime drama that can just replace actors on a whim. This is primetime. It would be a terrible mistake.

#224 callmedodge

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:41 PM

If the true non-book reader fans were really smart, they would have put together Theon's body position on the X and noticed the banner in the Roose Bolton scene of the flayed man....clear for everyone to see and compare.....and if they are anything like "Lost" viewers, they would have TOTALLY picked up on that and the mentioning of the Bastard of Bolton- case closed.


What a reasonable standpoint.

I`ve read the books multiple times and have only been really watching the show casually this season. I didn`t even notice the Bolton banners. It`s very easy to miss out on these details and to call people who don`t see it idiots (read: they have a low IQ) is just absurd.

As for the "it`s just scene after scene of torture" argument, have you people been watching the same show I`ve been watching? I count 3, maybe 4 instances of torture and even at that they were incredibly brief. Most of the Theon-Boy scenes have been about Theon and Boy. Setting up Boy as a character and giving us a deeper insight into Theon.

Not to mention the writing and acting of these scenes have been some of the best the show as seen.

People are arguing that it`s too separated from the rest of the storylines and to that I say, Dany.

#225 Hodors Shlong

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:37 PM

The two that came to GRRM with the idea of going to HBO, and the two that led to him getting rich. As an answer to your last question, yes.


...And GRRM getting rich has what to do with anything? Oh wait, I get it! The three of them are all wearing golden jumpsuits and just sitting in hot tubs full of cash, lighting cigars with burning copies of ASoS while they laugh at us meager fans...You've got it figured out!

So what's the correct route for them to take then? I'm ready to be enlightened by your insight and knowledge. What are the show runners of the best show on television missing that you aren't?

#226 swoosh stark

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:53 PM

is it bad that i dont feel sorry for theon? i dont enjoy watching him get tortured, but i cant bring myself to feel bad for him after everthing he did in season 2

#227 Dove

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:54 PM

For a casual viewer that hasn't seen S2 in ages, on blu-ray or even since it aired, it's totally reasonable to not make the Boy=Bolton's bastard connection. The mystery has been handled kind of awkwardly but that doesn't make someone dumb just because they haven't caught up as fast as someone who's read the books or someone who hasn't, but analyzes the show and posts about it on a messageboard.

The only reason my group of friends have mostly figured it out as of this episode is because one of them apparently picked up on the horn-blowing and then the flaying since they'd binged S2 recently and clued in the others. Once they were pushed in that direction it all came together for them, the X-shaped cross, the flaying, the horn-blowing, the men outside Winterfell, etc. I didn't confirm or deny, but a lot of them are pretty confident they've solved it now even if they're unsure about what it "means" for Robb.

I expect a lot of casual Unsullied are still in the dark - those of you that watch this show with friends, did any of them get any closer to figuring out the Boy/Theon mystery?

...And GRRM getting rich has what to do with anything? Oh wait, I get it! The three of them are all wearing golden jumpsuits and just sitting in hot tubs full of cash, lighting cigars with burning copies of ASoS while they laugh at us meager fans...You've got it figured out!

So what's the correct route for them to take then? I'm ready to be enlightened by your insight and knowledge. What are the show runners of the best show on television missing that you aren't?


You forgot to mention the sexy ladies they hired to lounge with them all day and wear shirts with Ros and Talisa's faces on them bedazzled with the words "I HATE BOOK-READING NERDS"

#228 iheartseverus

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:58 PM

The two that came to GRRM with the idea of going to HBO, and the two that led to him getting rich.


I'm sad for you. Here you posit that D and D are only doing this amazing series because they want to get rich. And that GRRM is going along only because he wants to get rich. Earlier, you posited that Charles Dance (Charles Dance!!) demanded extra scenes only because he's 'greedy.' (Charles Dance!!) Your rich-envy is sad and small and shriveled and I'm sorry for you. You're missing out on enjoying a great TV experience. Shriveled and bitter and envious-- while the rest of us are revelling in the best series ever brought to television. Yay us, poor you.

#229 The Bear

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

I am all sorts of proud of my mother, she saw the banner and saw Theon and actually guessed that Boy was related to the Boltons. It was the first whole episode she'd seen, too. I told her about the mystery of Boy's identity and that if she looked really, really hard she could work it out but I never actually imagined she would.

I still didn't tell her she got it right though. Now she feels compelled to watch the rest of the season to see if she was. Mission accomplished.

#230 congokong

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:13 PM

...And GRRM getting rich has what to do with anything? Oh wait, I get it! The three of them are all wearing golden jumpsuits and just sitting in hot tubs full of cash, lighting cigars with burning copies of ASoS while they laugh at us meager fans...You've got it figured out!

So what's the correct route for them to take then? I'm ready to be enlightened by your insight and knowledge. What are the show runners of the best show on television missing that you aren't?


I don't know about the golden jumpsuits and tubs, but to me the correct route would be to use the formula they used in making the 1st season. I was so pleased with it.

I'm sad for you. Here you posit that D and D are only doing this amazing series because they want to get rich. And that GRRM is going along only because he wants to get rich. Earlier, you posited that Charles Dance (Charles Dance!!) demanded extra scenes only because he's 'greedy.' (Charles Dance!!) Your rich-envy is sad and small and shriveled and I'm sorry for you. You're missing out on enjoying a great TV experience. Shriveled and bitter and envious-- while the rest of us are revelling in the best series ever brought to television. Yay us, poor you.


Spare me your sadness. None of this is worth getting sad over. And don't try judging me. You do not know me, yet you try labeling me. "Rich-envy, shriveled, bitter, envious..." You make all these claims over a few small posts.That's presumptuous and rude. I'm asked why GRRM picked these two, and I gave the answer. Of course it comes down to $$. Obviously GRRM had some faith that they would do a decent job with it, but $$ was the primary motivator.

And what are these exclamation points over Charles Dance? Are you kissing his ass or something?

Best TV series ever? No way.

Edited by congokong, 07 May 2013 - 11:22 PM.


#231 Pinkie Baelish

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:09 AM

And what are these exclamation points over Charles Dance? Are you kissing his ass or something?


You say that like it's a bad thing.

#232 congokong

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:20 AM

You say that like it's a bad thing.


lol It goes back to my previous post on putting people on pedestals. But if people want to worship Charles Dance for reading his lines in his grim tone, then I cannot stop them.

#233 bobbybuilderton

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:22 AM

There's really no basis for saying GRRM allowed them to do the show for money. He lives pretty modestly. I doubt he was money hungry. I wouldn't go so far as to say he didn't care about that, but saying that it was the primary motivator is pretty baseless.

#234 congokong

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:30 AM

There's really no basis for saying GRRM allowed them to do the show for money. He lives pretty modestly. I doubt he was money hungry. I wouldn't go so far as to say he didn't care about that, but saying that it was the primary motivator is pretty baseless.

In regards to the comment about living modestly.

"Why does a man who has one pot of gold need another. Men are greedy." - Genna Lannister

BTW, he recently bought a movie theatre.

If he did not do it for $$, what else could it be? He really did not know D+D enough to know they would do the show faithfully. And it turns out they haven't; not since season 1. The first season was super faithful, but in the latest episode only 4/13 of the scenes were in the books in any form at all.

GRRM has little to do with the show, so why else would he sell his story to HBO but for money and the publicity it brings to the books (which brings in more $$). GRRM has even been quoted as saying several times that "the dumptrucks of money are persuasive."

Edited by congokong, 08 May 2013 - 12:34 AM.


#235 callmedodge

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:34 AM

lol It goes back to my previous post on putting people on pedestals. But if people want to worship Charles Dance for reading his lines in his grim tone, then I cannot stop them.


I`m sorry. It seems that you`re incapable of enjoying anything. This is at least the second time I`ve seen you say "read their lines", first time in reference to Alfie Allen, as if any old sod could pick up a script and do the amazing job that most of the cast are doing.

It`s funny you happened to pick two of the better portrayals for your "read their lines" mocking. If acting is merely just reading lines we may as well extrapolate that to everything and not bother with anything; living dead-eyed, boredom-filled empty lives until we die.

Pft. Van Gogh. Anyone can draw.

Edited for grammar etc.

Edited by callmedodge, 08 May 2013 - 12:35 AM.


#236 congokong

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:47 AM

I`m sorry. It seems that you`re incapable of enjoying anything. This is at least the second time I`ve seen you say "read their lines", first time in reference to Alfie Allen, as if any old sod could pick up a script and do the amazing job that most of the cast are doing.

It`s funny you happened to pick two of the better portrayals for your "read their lines" mocking. If acting is merely just reading lines we may as well extrapolate that to everything and not bother with anything; living dead-eyed, boredom-filled empty lives until we die.

Pft. Van Gogh. Anyone can draw.

Edited for grammar etc.


I just said that I really enjoyed season 1, so I am capable.

Please don't exaggerate what I said. I didn't imply any "old sod" could do it, but capable actors are not as hard to find as some people on these boards make them out to be with this "you cannot replace them" logic.

I didn't say they had to "just reading their lines" but also behave appropriately. Ex: Dance acting grim.

#237 Dove

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:02 AM

If you imply that Charles Dance or Alfie Allen are anything less than genuine treasures I will get all kinds of scrappy, I mean 5'1'' and 103 pounds of SHEER RAGE comin atcha /box.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':box:' />

Anyway this is pretty off-topic from the Theon storyline which is what this thread was originally made to discuss.

If you want to talk critiques involving the faithfulness of the adaptation that's perfectly valid and it's currently being discussed in the Nitpick thread, I think, congokong. Or you could make an entirely new topic for discussion if you want, I might disagree w/ you but I wouldn't mind posting about it. Just not here, if we want to stay on topic.

#238 callmedodge

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:09 AM

I just said that I really enjoyed season 1, so I am capable.

Please don't exaggerate what I said. I didn't imply any "old sod" could do it, but capable actors are not as hard to find as some people on these boards make them out to be with this "you cannot replace them" logic.

I didn't say they had to "just reading their lines" but also behave appropriately. Ex: Dance acting grim.


You`re probably right there but going down the road of replacing actors because they`re unavailable or for whatever other reason is just a terrible idea. A main complaint (possibly by yourself also) in this thread has been the vagueness of what exactly is going on with Theon and the more the apparently tenuous connections that can be made between the seasons and such regarding the Boltons (I disagree with these points personally). Randomly replacing actors every few seasons would just confuse matters even further that`s it`s not even worth considering. I`d sooner they wrap the series up with a flimsy ending than replace actors every couple of years.

Also, regarding Charles Dance. D&D wrote more scenes for him because of general fan feedback of Tywin being awesome and Charles being fucking awesome at playing him. Not the other way around.

#239 Hodors Shlong

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:04 AM

I don't know about the golden jumpsuits and tubs, but to me the correct route would be to use the formula they used in making the 1st season. I was so pleased with it.


Spare me your sadness. None of this is worth getting sad over. And don't try judging me. You do not know me, yet you try labeling me. "Rich-envy, shriveled, bitter, envious..." You make all these claims over a few small posts.That's presumptuous and rude. I'm asked why GRRM picked these two, and I gave the answer. Of course it comes down to $$. Obviously GRRM had some faith that they would do a decent job with it, but $$ was the primary motivator.

And what are these exclamation points over Charles Dance? Are you kissing his ass or something?

Best TV series ever? No way.


A) they're using the same formula as S1...Adapt as closely as possible and change where you have to. Book one, when compared to the rest of the novels, is one of the easiest to adapt. You can't just stick to the source material 100%, especially just to please fan boys.

B ) People are judging you because you sound like a grumpy old man. You're saying pretentious, self righteous, and ridiculous things, and making it seem as if the people calling you out on it are attacking you. You're the one saying that the showrunners and authors of one of the best TV shows and book series of the past decade or two, respectively, don't know what they're doing. Sure, GRRM has been called this generations tolkien, but youre a fan boy, by god, and you know what youre talking about!

You just calmly say that you'd follow the "formula" for season 1, and act as if those three are too stupid or too greedy to care about sticking to the books; as if the thought never crossed their mind.

And as far as money is concerned, GRRM was approached dozens of times over the years to adapt asoiaf for tv, but denied them all because he didn't trust the medium (normal cable) or the people pitching it. D and D show up at his door step and he chose them because he knew they would do a good job.

C) people aren't ass kissing Charles Dance and Alfie Allen for the hell of it, they're doing it because those two have been phenominal. Everytime Tywin is on screen he steals the show easily. Sure there are others that could play the part, but if you've ever been apart of a production crew for TV or Film, you'd realize that recasting a main/popular character is about as desirable as an infected scrotum. It pisses off fans, confuses casual viewers, potentially messes with production, and most obviously, you want it for continuity sake. Sometimes it works out, ie Mark Ruffalo with Hulk, but it's still not the studios first choice.

Edited by Hodors Shlong, 08 May 2013 - 07:05 AM.


#240 Weeping Sore

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

Alfie Allen deserved an emmy for Season 2 and absolutely cannot be replaced.

Just watch some bad acting, for example, something on the CW and then come back and compare it to the acting on GoT.

Now, if you were making a case for replacing Kit Harrington...