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R+L=J v.49


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#1 Angalin

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:31 AM

[this post was intentionally left blank]

#2 Swan Targ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:36 AM

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?
I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed

#3 Morienthar

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:39 AM

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?
I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed

It might revealed to only and only Jon...That would be fun.
You are a King who will never rule Jon Snow or something similar.

#4 Fire Eater

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:48 AM

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?
I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed


I have a feeling it will be confirmed in ADoS when Dany heads north with fighting between her and the Northmen, who want a Stark as their king while Dany wants a Targaryen AKA herself. Jon offers the perfect solution having Stark blood and named as Robb's heir to the title of King in the North, and he is the rightful Targaryen heir.

#5 nirolo

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:14 AM

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.


But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)


The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)


"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)


R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)


R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

R+L=J v. 48 (thread forty-eight)

#6 Old-Growth

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:16 AM

In reply to posts at the end of the preceding part:

First of all, if this is a rom-com, it will be dark one: more like one of the "problem plays" than "The Taming of the Shrew".

That said, Jon does like women with some fire in their belly, vide Ygritte and Val, and it is not clear to me that Dany in her current "fire and blood" incarnation will be unappealing, esp. given her beauty. As his thoughts about Val suggest, he is hardly immune to that.

Just how off-putting the idea of marriage to his aunt will be is unclear to me. Initially, he will be resistant to the idea, no doubt. She will have to wear him down on this and on the matter of his oath. So, perhaps, Dany as Petruccio and Jon as Kate /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> She will have assistance: both from Tyrion and Ser Barristan, tho' her bloodriders may start making jokes about "the reluctant khal". Ser Barristan will just be pleased with the idea that his Queen will wed an intelligent, honorable man that she can trust. After Daario and Hizdahr, Jon will look a particularly worthy choice. So I think Selmy, if still with us, will encourage Jon to accept. And it will not take Tyrion much cogitation to see that Jon is a better choice than Aegon. The boy may not be entirely dead, but the man, and the lord (commander), have been born. Aegon is still a boy and Tyrion knows it. (Also it's not a good idea to kill the boy entirely: one needs to retain a certain flexibility of mind and openness to the new.) I suspect also that Bloodraven may help persuade Jon, though just how is an open question. If Jon is in a coma, he may be visited by the three eyed crow........

Finally, they will be fighting a desperate war to save Westeros, hardly "rom-com" material.

Edited by Old-Growth, 10 May 2013 - 02:23 AM.


#7 Lady Nastja

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:08 AM

This has been said thousands of times before on the forums, but one of the main things that confirms this for me is that Ned doesn't resent Rhaegar at all, and surely you would resent the man that apparently kidnapped, raped and caused the death of your sister? Also, he never agrees with Robert's idea that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, he just drops the subject.

#8 FrozenFire3

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

To me Rhaegar seems to find his roots far more in the classic tragic hero. He has many heroic virtues, he is also handsome, smart, skilled, quick learning, even soulful. Not enough is really known about it to go to in depth. But on the superficial level we are given from the books this is the appearance being suggested. We can speculate more on him but we really can't ascertain all that much. Now in the end he may be a villian, a hero, an anti hero, a tragic pawn, a tragic hero, and pretty much anything inbetween and all of them combined. But as it stands in the context of the 5 books, I would put him in the tragic hero figure role right now.


This time your analysis is a gem, both in tones and contents.
I tend to agree with you about Rhaegar being a tragic hero figure. It comes to mind Oedipus, amongst others (except Rhaegar does not commit incest, being the fruit of one). According to Aristotle's Poetics, the ideal tragic hero was a man in whose character good and bad were mixed, but with the good predominating. This definition is usually paraphrased as "a basically noble man with a tragic flaw." Oedipus is a concerned, caring king whose people love and trust him, but he has an impulsive temper and fails to think in some critical situations. As a result, he commits some terrible crimes, destroys his personal world, and drags some innocent people down with him (...and thousands died for it).
As you well pointed out, we still lack all the key elements and facts to pass final judgement. That's the reason I used that 'anti' in brackets. It wasn't my intention to label an undoubtedly 'fluid' character (it's such a fluidity btw that keeps on intriguing me and makes me want to 'decrypt' him). I was just playing devil's advocate, deciding to stay neutral and not completely dismiss some aspects of Robert's version of the story. Yet /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#9 Starkley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?
I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed


I can only hope that Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW - it will give the rest of Westeros time to learn and adjust their thinking. He's down and out right now - why not tell him in a dream so we the readers can finally rest our jaws (or fingers) on this subject.

#10 MtnLion

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:34 AM

From FrozenFire3:

Here is your list of R+L=J interview related /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Kit Harington:

http://www.thedailyb...o-jon-snow.html

http://www.vulture.c...on-two-sex.html

Sean Bean:

http://www.vulture.c...ext_for_ga.html

Alfie Allen:

http://www.vulture.c...-interview.html

Sophie Turner:

http://www.vulture.c...-interview.html

Ciaran Hinds:

http://www.vulture.c...-interview.html

Bryan Cogman:

http://thinkprogress...cter/?mobile=nc

http://geek-news.mtv...ame-of-thrones/

D&D:

http://www.nytimes.c....anted=all&_r=1

Elio's post:

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry4088451



#11 Syphon the Sanitator

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:18 AM

Today I found something that might give us some insight. For obvious reasons I haven't read the 48 preceding topics, so stop me if I'm treading where people have trod before, but I wanted to share with you a little gem that I missed before.

In my edition of Storm of Swords, page 159, has Jaime talk to Roland Crakehall and Elys Westerling, and others, after killing Aerys.

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought.


At first, I read this as "His blood is in both Viserys and Aegon", as I assume many of us did. However, if you consider it differently, you might come to a different reading. "His blood is in both of them. The wolves and the storm lord." There is Targaryen blood in Robert, and if R+L = J is true, so is there in "the wolves." Am I reading into things too much, like I've often accused academic critics of doing, or do I have a point?

#12 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:09 AM

Today I found something that might give us some insight. For obvious reasons I haven't read the 48 preceding topics, so stop me if I'm treading where people have trod before, but I wanted to share with you a little gem that I missed before.

In my edition of Storm of Swords, page 159, has Jaime talk to Roland Crakehall and Elys Westerling, and others, after killing Aerys.



At first, I read this as "His blood is in both Viserys and Aegon", as I assume many of us did. However, if you consider it differently, you might come to a different reading. "His blood is in both of them. The wolves and the storm lord." There is Targaryen blood in Robert, and if R+L = J is true, so is there in "the wolves." Am I reading into things too much, like I've often accused academic critics of doing, or do I have a point?


I suggested a couple of threads ago that there may have been a Stark-Targ connection in the generation of Rickard's grandfather and Aegon V. Simply put, if one of Aegon's sisters had married a Stark, yes the Starks would have Targ blood and a claim, though a more distant one than Robert Baratheon for example. Excuse me for using a bit of shorthand here and not offering the (admittedly slim) textual clues I found, since I'm at work. I have a lengthy explanation I could share later if you're interested.
Anyway, I like your catch. If nothing else, it shows how Martin as a writer forces us to think and pay attention.
/cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

#13 Syphon the Sanitator

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:34 PM

I'd like to hear it. You can send me a personal message later on.

#14 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:41 PM

UVA wrote:

Wonderful analysis LadyGwyn of a loaded passage. I agree that Theon's dream seems more integrated into his story than to other features eluded to in the sequence. But I wonder if the Lyanna reference is wholly separate from Theon's arc.

First, what do you think of the significance, and perhaps a nod from Martin to the reader who has picked up on R+L=J, of connecting Lyanna -- yet again -- with the imagery of a crown of blue winter roses? Or perhaps what a woman's clothes look like just after giving birth? It seems very deliberate to associate these particular images with Lyanna.

Also, Theon/Reek seems to have morphed into an unlikely chronicler of Winterfell in ADWD. Lady Dustin chooses him as her escort into the Winterfell crypts: a potential source of information on the mysterious background of the Starks, their involvement in the history of the Wall and the Long Night. the Others, and R+L=J. The crypts resonate a power and mystique that isn't lost on Theon or Dustin. And it's Theon (of all people) who Dustin reveals her thoughts on some of the key events and players of the series' backstory, Lyanna being one of them.

On this basis I think Theon may have more contextual relation to Lyanna than any other character save for Ned and Robert. There are thoughts and references by a handful of characters: Cersei notes the 'wolf girl'. Kevan, while less derogatory in his inner dialogue, also thinks about the 'northern girl'. There's also Harwin and Roose commenting on Lyanna's exceptionalism as an equestrian. Barristan thinks about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. Meera does something similar in her re-telling of the KOTLT, and that the crowning of the wolf maid was "a much a sadder tale."

Considering these one-time references, Theon appears to more associated than other characters with Lyanna's story. That said, this may just be the result of his role as the sole POV at Winterfell in ADWD and not an essential component of his arc wrt Lyanna and her backstory.


You touched on some things here that I thought of, but was too lazy to expand upon last night. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />
I do think we may be getting a nod from Martin, or a clue at least. The detail with which Lyanna is described (crown of blue roses, white dress) surely goes beyond anything Theon may have picked up from her statue or from stories he heard. (Unless someone has knowledge that the statues were painted? I don't recall that myself) And while gore may certainly come from Theon's imagination of how Lyanna died, it could be another subtle hint to us the readers.

As far as Theon and Lady Dustin in the crypts, while that happens much later I was thinking that a side by side comparison of those passages would be interesting, since both deal with insights into the Stark family and life at Winterfell that Theon has a unique insight into. (Actually I think an analysis of all passages that deal with the WF crypts would be very revealing.) Anyway, Theon does certainly seem to be a vehicle for delivering information about the Stark family in general, Lyanna in particular, which is interesting, given his status as an outsider.

#15 Swan Targ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:11 PM

Excuse me, I just need to share this because

http://25.media.tumb...zsq46o1_500.jpg

#16 King of Winters

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:55 PM

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?
I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed

I think it will be revealed near the end of TWOW to Jon and then revealed to everyone else in ADOS.


#17 shk12344

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

You guys think Jon's parentage will be revealed in TWoW or ADoS?
I think if it's gonna be revealed in the last book, things might get a bit rushed

I definitely think the issue of Jon's parentage will come up in TWoW. Once Jon "rises" dead, people are going to wonder who "Jon Snow" really is, specially who is "mother" is. I can imagine Mel, who is obsessed with AAR, will attempt to figure out about Jon's past partly out of curiosity and partly out to win favors from Jon.

But my guess it won't be confirmed until ADoS when Jon makes a pilgrimage to Howland Reed.

#18 yushkevsh

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:16 PM

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."
After more research that's the line that sold me. Blue flower = Lyanna loved blue winter roses, Wall of ice -= obvious /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />, Sweetness = song.

So in retrospect Jon's "death" at the end of aDwD is likely to try to throw readers off the scent. But clearly Jon is not dead and with so much expectation now that R+L=J GRRM would need one hell of an alternative to both shock and please readers.

My guess is there will be a few more twists in the plot before the big reveal, likely some other revelation that makes us all think Jon is a child of other parents only to finally concede he is in fact R+J's son. Too bad though, I had really hoped he was going to be the ultimate nemesis to Dany in the end, not somehow together.

#19 Ser Creighton

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:22 PM

This time your analysis is a gem, both in tones and contents.
I tend to agree with you about Rhaegar being a tragic hero figure. It comes to mind Oedipus, amongst others (except Rhaegar does not commit incest, being the fruit of one). According to Aristotle's Poetics, the ideal tragic hero was a man in whose character good and bad were mixed, but with the good predominating. This definition is usually paraphrased as "a basically noble man with a tragic flaw." Oedipus is a concerned, caring king whose people love and trust him, but he has an impulsive temper and fails to think in some critical situations. As a result, he commits some terrible crimes, destroys his personal world, and drags some innocent people down with him (...and thousands died for it).
As you well pointed out, we still lack all the key elements and facts to pass final judgement. That's the reason I used that 'anti' in brackets. It wasn't my intention to label an undoubtedly 'fluid' character (it's such a fluidity btw that keeps on intriguing me and makes me want to 'decrypt' him). I was just playing devil's advocate, deciding to stay neutral and not completely dismiss some aspects of Robert's version of the story. Yet /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


Well you know the first post was a joke. Who types with a gravely voice? Didn't think I knew all that fancy stuff, like words and things. See I used "didn't" a horrible use of a contraction so I sound stupid. Then I call words fancy stuff, and then use things to point out I am to stupid to think of anything. That way when people think your a moron you can surprise them.

I always play devils advocate, it is a lot more fun and stimulates conversation. I actually try never to dismiss anything that is not factually dismissed. In the context of the story I tend to believe that there is some truth in what most chracters, but I often find the truth to be a bit skewed. Robert has his truths, but I think Robert also projects what he thinks happens in the form of Lyanna being raped. If a man kidnapps a woman he rapes her, that is Roberts truth. It is to bad we never got a Robert POV, I am sure he had more than one memory or Rhaegar, what with being his cousin and all.

Mormont has his truth about Rhaegar, which intresting enough is not all that different than Mormonts own story about his two wives. Though how well could Mormont have actually known Rhaegar? And I doubt he had any real knowledge of what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rather he projects his own story into there story. However that does not mean there is no truth in what he is saying.

Selmy, relates his own truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar, but much like Mormont his version seems very much a projection of his feeling about Ashara. But in Selmys recollection of Rhaegar the man and boy outside of Lyanna I think a lot of truth exists though it is probably a bit polished up as we tend to remember the dead a little better than they actualyl were.

Viserys, had his own truth about Rhaegar that stated in a very nonchalant sort of way. Again I believe we see projection, what would Viserys do? But also I believe there is some truth in what he says.

Martin often uses the POV to not only show us different points of view but often to hide the truth within a characters truth or characters truths. The use of projection, the human condition, and lies characters tell themselves abound. The POV is Martins great device, it can tell us truth without us knowing it and lie to us without intentionally lying to us.

In the use of Projection which seems to be a Martin favorite let direct you to Renly for a moment. Remember when Renly who wants very much to be like his older Brother Robert, or even better than Robert, asks Ned about a picture in a locket? The picture is of Margaery Tyrell who everyone says looks just like Lyanna. Ned does not see any resemblance. Renly and whoever told him that are clearly projecting for there own reasons.

Now when both Mormont and Selmy tell/recall their tales of Rhaegar and love they both do the same thing. Mormont of course tells Dany she looks like the woman he loves/loved, and Selmy thinks Dany reminds him of Ashara. Not all that different than what Renly did with Margaerys image.

Robert and Viserys share a kind of truth in that they both project what they think would of happened. Viserys belief that a King has the right to do what he wants, and Roberts belief that woman are taken to be raped because that's all that can happen when you kidnap a woman. Neither actually thinks of Rhaegar on any kind of personal level both are situationally viewed as a+b=c. There is some logic to an extent, but people are not just math.

Mormont and Selmy never actually ackowledge the situation of what happened but rather look at it from an emotional aspect. To them it's all about emotion. They kind of skip the math so to speak.

All of them however project and there in lies both the danger of what they are saying and the truth they may be telling.

While rereading Kings I tend to find that Martin not only foreshadows but that slight off handed remarks from characters tell you what is going to happen. Which is why I firmly believe that we will see Tyrion on a dragon, "I want to see the bad man fly." But that is neither here nor there.

In the end I think many of the off handed remarks about Rhaegar are very truthful. Unfortunatly we are given far less information on Lyanna from chracters outside of Ned. Which I find more than a little unfair as Rhaegar has gotten all his press and Lyanna very little. She is far more of a mystery than he is. I know she could ride well and was pretty, but I would hope to see more of her character and less of the plot device she currently is.

One of the big Dangers of the love story as I see it is the bards and common folk. You say it enough and everyone starts to believe this is a love story. The Bards romanticize everything and common folk project their own fancies. But within the books we are told not to trust what the Bards sing about, nor should anyone as they are not historians.

Lyannas most intresting theme to me is blood, it's a constant in dreams with her. And that by and large she is a character depicted in dreams, the bed of blood, the walls splattered with blood, she wept blood, she is splattered with gore. Always roses and always blood. Even Ned grabbing the laurel was bloody. It's intresting that Lyanna is by far the more romantic aspect of the story with the constant imagery of roses. Rhaegar had but one romantic action, and his other obvious romantic aspect, the Harp is usually surrounded by sadness and tears. Sad songs and people crying is the themes that follow the harp. Sadness is almost always a theme with Rhaegar. Lyannas theme is almost always love related. Regret is also a theme with Rhaegar, but most often it is seen in the characters speaking about him at the time.

Lyanna, the Iron, the bold, brave, heroic, free spirit, kind, beauty, wolf blooded, blood, love and death. She has a distinct lack of grey themes and virtues that Martin uses which I always find curious.

#20 MtnLion

MtnLion

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

Well, SC, I certainly see some of Lyanna's personality in what we have read so far. We know that her father forbade her to wear a blade, and most likely pursue any martial pastimes. She was willful in that she secretly practiced with a sword, and acquired enough skill to beat off the squires. The app reveals (or was it an SSM) that she secretly tipped at rings, too. In any event she had enough courage and bravado to step in with Howland's plight. And, she secretly took armor and tilted as the KoLT to ensure that justice was served for the squires. She also was touched by Rhaegar's song, thus she had a tender heart. I do see a woman who would willingly run away and marry the prince if she felt that she was in love with him, in spite of the consequences with her father.