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[Book Spoilers] You know Nothing, Theon Greyjoy


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22 replies to this topic

#1 Turinsbane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

Having gotten my weekly dose of Theon being tortured, the whole "guess where we are" game raised a question that has been gnawing at me for some time: is Theon Greyjoy an idiot.

Yes, I realize he's been tortured, malnourished, and woke up in what was for all intents and purposes a random dungeon. And yet, I find hard to believe that Theon could really be that ignorant of his surroundings. Especially after he escapes the Dreadfort (where else could it be?) then follows Ramsay all the way back to be locked up again. Not just locked up, mind you, but put back on a flaying rack which House Bolton literally waves around everywhere they go. So are we honestly expected to believe that:

a ) After spending nine years in Winterfell, the heart of the North, to which all other houses pay tribute, complete with a trained maester, Theon has no idea of the geography or houses in Stark lands?

b ) Even if maester Luwin failed to educate Theon about where he lives, the Boltons are a pretty notorious house. Theon's never heard of the Flayed Man of the Dreadfort? He's literally being flayed and Theon doesn’t think "Maybe I'm in the Dreadfort, where all they do is torture people". And being so deep in Robb's council, he definitely would have known about Roose Bolton, who led the battle at the Green Fork which allowed Robb's army to reach Riverrun.

c ) Let's concede that Theon decided to just live in a bubble during his stay in Winterfell, and had no notion of whose holds what castle and where, especially since there are no huge castles west of Deepwood Motte. But are we really supposed to believe that Theon, after being told to ride east by a mysterious stranger, is then lead by Ramsay in the direction he came, to the exact same castle he left, which was flying the banners of house Bolton (which look NOTHING like the Greyjoy banner), and the whole time Theon never once thought "something, ever so slightly, is off).

So, my main problem with the Theon storyline is that a guy who grew up in the North, stood right next to the top commanders in Robb's army, managed to lead his Ironborn all the way from the Stony Shore to Winterfell, and planned to escape Winterfell and join the Night's Watch gets one knock on the head and suddenly is the most clueless, helpless person in Westeros? Theon may rash, arrogant, and a follower, but is really that...stupid?

Am I missing something here?

#2 Turinsbane

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

Bump!

#3 Ser Luke.

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

This is admittedly the biggest plot hole I've seen in Season 3 so far.

But there are few enough mistakes like this where it doesn't bother me much.

#4 congokong

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:55 PM

That's what D+D get for trying to change the source material. It usually doesn't come out right.

#5 Mulled Wino

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:10 PM

Of course he's an idiot. He's capable but definitely an indecisive fool.

And he's even dumber in the show.

#6 Winterz

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:15 PM

The Battle at the Green Fork had no nobles in the Northern side whatsoever, not in the show no.

But indeed, I still can't explain how Theon doesn't recall the whole "Flayed man" thing and the Bolton banners which look exactly how he's being tortured.

I'd understand why he doesn't recognize the Dreadfort but c'mon Boltons, Boltons, Boltons, Flayed people, evil, Bolton's bastard...oh Theon, are you really that dumb?

#7 Pinkie Baelish

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:17 PM

Well, the game ended pretty quickly, so it's not implausible to suggest that Theon would have suggested the Boltons soon enough. Let's see how it plays out. I'm hoping sooner or later, he does correctly name Ramsay as a Bolton, rather than having it revealed to him.

#8 Khalessi

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:17 PM

Maybe he's scared that if he guessed right that the boy would just hurt him more? Ramsay's at his happiest when he's in control. I would say if Theon guessed right he would just get mad that he lost the game and hurt him worse, if that's possible. I know it's a long shot but it's really the only thing I can think of that makes sense. I wish the show would just reveal it's Ramsay. I don't think it spoils the Roose betrayl at all.

Edited by Khalessi, 11 May 2013 - 07:18 PM.


#9 Winterz

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:18 PM

Maybe he's scared that if he guessed right that the boy would just hurt him more? Ramsay's at his happiest when he's in control. I would say if Theon guessed right he would just get pissed that he lost the game and hurt him worse, if that's possible. I know it's a long shot but it's really the only thing I can think of that makes sense. I wish the show would just reveal it's Ramsay. I don't think it spoils the Roose betrayl at all.


Well Theon is both coward ans stoopid. If he knew it I'm pretty sure he'd say it right away thinking Ramsay would let him go after it.

#10 Khalessi

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:28 PM

Well Theon is both coward ans stoopid. If he knew it I'm pretty sure he'd say it right away thinking Ramsay would let him go after it.


Yeah your probably right. It's really just the only thing I can think of that makes sense. In the end there really isn't any logic to it. My guess is though if Theon is the one to guess Ramsay's identity instead of him revealing it himself. It will really make Ramsay go into a rage.

#11 Winterz

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:36 PM

Yeah your probably right. It's really just the only thing I can think of that makes sense. In the end there really isn't any logic to it. My guess is though if Theon is the one to guess Ramsay's identity instead of him revealing it himself. It will really make Ramsay go into a rage.


Well not that it really matters. Rage Ramsay can't really be worse than regular Ramsay..or can it? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#12 Khalessi

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:43 PM

Well not that it really matters. Rage Ramsay can't really be worse than regular Ramsay..or can it? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


It scares me to think of him being worse but he might be. Judging from the trailer it looks like theon might get something more delicate cut off. Maybe that's what he get for making Ramsay angry? Or maybe Ramsay would still do it just for pleasure? I don't know I'm really scared to delve to deep into Ramsay's psyche. lol

#13 Penguin king

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:22 PM

No theon is not an idiot. Book Theon knew who was torturing him right from the start. Show Theon is kept unaware as it helps add to the mental anguish and confusion he's going through.

The guy already had serious psychological issues before the torture started. Is it that unbelievable that after all he's been through he might not be in a position to think logically about where he is and what's happening?

#14 Pinkie Baelish

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

Didn't Ramsay tell Theon that he was from the Iron Islands and saw him the day he sailed for Winterfell as a child? That would only confuse Theon even more.

Theon has been rescued by this so-called ironborn stranger, who claims to be one of his sister's men, who implies that it's his father that's holding him here. He then betrays Theon and starts torturing him. All Theon knows is that he is in the North. I don't see how he would immediately suspect that Ramsay is a Bolton.

Unless, Theon saw the Bolton banners flying when he found himself surrounded at Winterfell last season. Then he has no good excuse.

Edited by Pinkie Baelish, 11 May 2013 - 08:28 PM.


#15 teemo

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:36 PM

I think it's kind of a weak argument to say he can't recognize him because "he's too malnourished." You can use that excuse A LOT. If it makes someone feel better, great, but I see it as a plot hole. Theon appears to be trying, he has enough strength to think of House Umber and make connections between him and Robb Stark and how it's a "revenge" plot. I think by now he would have been able to guess House Bolton for all of the reasons previously mentioned.

Edited by schala, 11 May 2013 - 08:38 PM.


#16 Nezzer

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:41 PM

Or maybe he was thinking more about who would be more pissed at him for betraying Robb than about the reputation of each house. Maybe he says Last hearth because the Greatjon was Robb's most loyal bannerman and the first one to declare Robb King in the North. Then he says Karhold because Rickard Karstark was the second guy to draw his sword. It's more likely to be a plot hole, but this would make sense.

Edited by Nezzer, 11 May 2013 - 09:42 PM.


#17 Minsc

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:42 PM

a ) After spending nine years in Winterfell, the heart of the North, to which all other houses pay tribute, complete with a trained maester, Theon has no idea of the geography or houses in Stark lands?


Why would Luwin teach the heir of the Iron Islands about the house of the North instead of teaching him about the Iron Islands?

#18 Areo Speedwagon

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:10 PM

Why would Luwin teach the heir of the Iron Islands about the house of the North instead of teaching him about the Iron Islands?


Not sure, but judging by how Theon dressed to go home to the Iron Islands, Luwin didn't exactly give him a heads up that jewelry and skirts would be met with ridicule. So maybe he did teach him about the north. I also can't see Theon being that receptive a student for the first few years at Winterfell.

#19 WardenOfTheNerds

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:36 AM

Well he was flayed only after he failed to answer the questions right? So it's not like he didn't connect flaying to Boltons. Still, it's a pretty bad plothole, i agree.

#20 Daske

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:37 AM

It is feasible he wasn't thinking straight so it's not really a 'bad plot hole'. I mean he only had a couple of guesses and may have guessed right next. It's a bit unlikely he wouldn't know for sure, but not really something totally unbelieveable as to be a plot hole.