Warg abominations! (Gasp!)

[Morienthar]

But our favourite wargs are no wildlings and nobody explained them the rules.

They are good rules....

Don't become a Cannibal.

Don't practice Bestiality. and

Don't become a body snatcher.

I think apart from the last one the other two are simple human rules aren't they,They don't just apply to wargs and skinchangers even 11 year olds should know the first two.

[kiasyd]

From ethics standpoint, I think only the rule against warging another human holds itself. Eating humans is abominable, but killing them is not? And what are the grounds for the mating rule?

[Shane the Llama]

From ethics standpoint, I think only the rule against warging another human holds itself. Eating humans is abominable, but killing them is not? And what are the grounds for the mating rule?

Assuming that you are putting aside instinctual revulsion and taboos, there is still at least one good reason not to break Haggon's three main rules: the safety of people around the warg. Although the rules are not rooted in logic, they are intended to preserve the humanity of wargs, and keep the traits of their animals from overwhelming them. If breaking one of the rules brings a warg closer to their animalistic side, that act of rule-breaking also endangers the people around the warg. We have already seen the threat posed to others by a warg who violated the rules (Varamyr). A person who possesses both the mental and, through warging, physical characteristics of a wild animal is a danger to society. Thus, disregarding Haggon's rules is unethical.

[yolkboy]

I let Bran and Arya off because nobody had told them of the rules.

[KOM]

Yes. I'm glad people are discussing this. It's also unknown if Jon has/was warging when he was taking out the Westerlands.

But, as many have pointed out, you can almost treat the "wildling code" as just another culture. Some don't practice slavery. Some on Skagos eat people. Dothraki do wtf they want.

Also, assign culpability based on control. E.g., with Arya & Nymeria. Is Arya killing the people? Or is she just along for the ride and also experiencing the taste sensations? Does that make a difference 'abomination' wise?

What's interesting for me is that many people tend to gloss this over or forget it, bc Bran and Arya (and Starks in gen) are "heroes" so their 'abominations' are excused while other peoples crimes get more scrutiny.

This may make a good thread for Justice Westeros. Idk if they've done it there already or not.

[kiasyd]

Assuming that you are putting aside instinctual revulsion and taboos, there is still at least one good reason not to break Haggon's three main rules: the safety of people around the warg. Although the rules are not rooted in logic, they are intended to preserve the humanity of wargs, and keep the traits of their animals from overwhelming them. If breaking one of the rules brings a warg closer to their animalistic side, that act of rule-breaking also endangers the people around the warg. We have already seen the threat posed to others by a warg who violated the rules (Varamyr). A person who possesses both the mental and, through warging, physical characteristics of a wild animal is a danger to society. Thus, disregarding Haggon's rules is unethical.

Nice point, I agree, this is a rich discussion! Now, Haggon's rules actually prevent the warg from loosing his humanity? We see Jojen coaching Bran on how to preserve his humanity and not to become wolf himself, and we actually see from Bran's perspective how easily that happens - when he is in Summer, how easily he forgets his purpose and just enjoys the hunt - and IIRC, Jojen advises Bran not to feed too much in Summer, in order to preserve his humanity - no ethics involved, just practical utilitarism.

I think this parallels nicely to moral guidelines in religions: For instance, most religions advises against killing, however, one can easily make a logical and sociological argument against killing without relying on any "outer" moral guidance.

I also think its interesting to explore the particular rule about warging another human being - this rule clearly has nothing to do with becoming bestial, but clearly violates the most basic "right" of a person - I guess almost everyone would agree that such an act would be unethical... Mostly, Bran uses it to solve problems by "merging" with Hodor: a boy who doesn't have working legs "merges" with big fella who (kind of) doesn't have a working mind. Is this unethical? Is this unethical under a wight attack? Is this unethical to explore some cool caves underground?

Nice topic!

[Free Northman]

Haggon was an unwashed savage and his rules are superstitious nonsense.

Ih he had his way you should pretty much only warg wolves. He had no knowledge regarding the theory behind warging, just instinctual self taught experience added to the little the savage before him taught him.

The only authority on warging would be the greenseers, who are tapped into the collective knowledge of a million years through the weirwood network.

And they flat out ignore at least one of Haggon's so called rules, as they warg into every beast under the sun.

In short, you can ignore Haggon's nonsense.

[LordStoneheart]

Haggon was an unwashed savage and his rules are superstitious nonsense.

Ih he had his way you should pretty much only warg wolves. He had no knowledge regarding the theory behind warging, just instinctual self taught experience added to the little the savage before him taught him.

The only authority on warging would be the greenseers, who are tapped into the collective knowledge of a million years through the weirwood network.

And they flat out ignore at least one of Haggon's so called rules, as they warg into every beast under the sun.

In short, you can ignore Haggon's nonsense.

Yes, this. Love seeing the phrase 'unwashed savage' applied to a wildling. So un-PC...

I made a thread about this defending Bran warging Hodor. I also said that Haggon was a wildling and his rules should be taken with a grain of salt. Wildling culture, while not completely idiotic, is very superstitious with some pretty bad standards. Rape is okay during a woman's period. There's no such thing as stealing because if you steal it, it's yours. Kill children with manageable, non-contagious diseases (the lovely Val :rolleyes: has this opinion of Shireen)

I also think its interesting to explore the particular rule about warging another human being - this rule clearly has nothing to do with becoming bestial, but clearly violates the most basic "right" of a person - I guess almost everyone would agree that such an act would be unethical... Mostly, Bran uses it to solve problems by "merging" with Hodor: a boy who doesn't have working legs "merges" with big fella who (kind of) doesn't have a working mind. Is this unethical? Is this unethical under a wight attack? Is this unethical to explore some cool caves underground?

I also made this point but in much more insensitive terms. I said Hodor is just basically a horse for Bran and warging him shouldn't be seen as different from any other animal like Summer. but then the drama starts and Azor Ahai comes up somehow... :]

[Yukle]

No mistake, Bran and Arya are abominations by the warg code, both having eaten human flesh in wolf form. Bran has also warged Hodor, the second abominable act. I just hope we're not subjected to the third in Bran's POV. It was bad enough in Varamyr Six-skins prologue POV.

These seem to be taboos rather than things that will shatter the magic of skinchanging. Just as the Freys didn't get struck by lightning for breaking guest right, the Starks are probably not going to have any penalties for breaking the "rules" of sharing skins.

[Free Northman]

If the weirwood network reiterates Haggon's laws, then I will accept it. I suspect it won't though.

The Children view nature from the Earth's lifecycle point of view. Men are indeed meat to them. Whether you eat a deer or a human, it's just protein and the life force of the creature will just be absorbed into the weirwood network, presumably to be born again in another living creature.

From this point of view warging a human would be no different to warging a wolf or a hawk or a tree for that matter. They're all just living beings.

Same with eating or mating. The Children have a decidedly non-human centric view of these things and would likely see Haggon's rules as superstitious vanity.

[kiasyd]

I also made this point but in much more insensitive terms. I said Hodor is just basically a horse for Bran and warging him shouldn't be seen as different from any other animal like Summer. but then the drama starts and Azor Ahai comes up somehow... :]

Really? I guess I missed those discussions... But I agree, until now Hodor's purpose is to carry Bran around - warged or not. I would like to see he do something more meaningful though.

[mrunderhill]

Are people seriously suggesting it is morally fine to take over someones body and use them when you want? This is just a stupid taboo right? I am shocked that people can put Hodor down as an animal? Even Luwin and Bran make a point of stating Hodor is a MAN. Warging into a human without their consent is just like a sexual assault.

[kiasyd]

Are people seriously suggesting it is morally fine to take over someones body and use them when you want? This is just a stupid taboo right? I am shocked that people can put Hodor down as an animal? Even Luwin and Bran make a point of stating Hodor is a MAN. Warging into a human without their consent is just like a sexual assault.

Is it justifiable to warg Hodor under a wight attack?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Is it justifiable to warg Hodor under a wight attack?

... and is it justifiable to warg Hodor for fun, even though you know the distress it causes him?

[mrunderhill]

Is it justifiable to warg Hodor under a wight attack?

Not without his consent no. Why do you think it is fine to enter someones mind without their consent? The greatest invasion of privacy and violation of another person?

[kiasyd]

... and is it justifiable to warg Hodor for fun, even though you know the distress it causes him?

A good question as well! Look, I'm not defending one way or the other, I'm just proposing debate and reflection on the subject - morality and ethics aren't always crystal clear, you know... I'm sure ASOIAF readers realize that by now. :-)

[mrunderhill]

A good question as well! Look, I'm not defending one way or the other, I'm just proposing debate and reflection on the subject - morality and ethics aren't always crystal clear, you know... I'm sure ASOIAF readers realize that by now. :-)

No morals are not always crystal clear, but then sometimes they are. Warging another human to have a little fun is abhorrent.

[conon394]

I would say Aryra is the most likely to violate the warging humans rule and hard. She needs to excel at being a FM and if she extrapolates from the cat experience she might push the envelope fast but seeing as she already considers death an easy and primary solution to problems... It might easily allow her to move up fast in the FM ranks w/o a 5 years and learn the skills she wants. Makes her a more gray character but she has been on that road for a while.

Bran is a tree I'm not sure warging morality really rules him anymore.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

I'm pretty much convinced Bran will die at some point and live his second life as Hodor.

[Penguin king]

Between Coldhand's "pork" and the "Jojon paste" there's a good chance that Bran is a cannibal anyway