Warg abominations! (Gasp!)

[Bad Hound!]

I don't think it's being PC to say that the wildlings do have a moral code. At least some of them. As they are not knee-benders, they live under lots of different rules, each village/community must have its own set, and maybe some of them,. such as Haggon, have a more developed moral code that others (the rapist ones etc.)

Also you can't judge a community by the behaviour of its worst elements. Do we say that Westerosi have no morals because of Gregor, the Tickler etc. ?

Val would kill Shireen because she thinks that what she has is contagious in some ways.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Rape is happening all the time. It's not exclusive to the Wildlings.

And yeah. What Bran is doing is, IMHO, borderline evil. People don't mind because it's his POV so there's no real judgment there... But if it was, let us say, Littlefinger skinchanging/torturing a poor dimwit people would want him dead.

What Bran is doing to Hodor is not a minor offense. He's basically torturing and slowly killing poor Hodor, a good creature who always helped him.

[kiasyd]

Rape is happening all the time. It's not exclusive to the Wildlings.

And yeah. What Bran is doing is, IMHO, borderline evil. People don't mind because it's his POV so there's no real judgment there... But if it was, let us say, Littlefinger skinchanging/torturing a poor dimwit people would want him dead.

What Bran is doing to Hodor is not a minor offense. He's basically torturing and slowly killing poor Hodor, a good creature who always helped him.

Perhaps the difference here is intent? Bran was crippled when he was 8 years old, lost his father, mother and older brothers and has no clue whatsoever of what he is doing, or why he is doing - he decides to follow on north of the wall just because some dream told him the he would be able to fly. Littlefinger would pretty much know what he would be doing.

[mrunderhill]

Perhaps the difference here is intent? Bran was crippled when he was 8 years old, lost his father, mother and older brothers and has no clue whatsoever of what he is doing, or why he is doing - he decides to follow on north of the wall just because some dream told him the he would be able to fly. Littlefinger would pretty much know what he would be doing.

If Bran was not a POV character then maybe you would have a point, but that is not the case. Bran knows what he is doing is wrong. There is no excuse. Bran has been taught well that Hodor is a human and should always be treated like one. That is why the part where he mentions how he wanted to beat Hodor on the head for not going into the crypts is important.

[kiasyd]

If Bran was not a POV character then maybe you would have a point, but that is not the case. Bran knows what he is doing is wrong. There is no excuse. Bran has been taught well that Hodor is a human and should always be treated like one. That is why the part where he mentions how he wanted to beat Hodor on the head for not going into the crypts is important.

I dont know... I still think you would be demanding ethics and morality from an 11 year old medieval lordling with no parent or educator around to guide him anymore - remember, this is a world which usually breeds Jofreys, Ramseys, Cleganes, Danis, etc. I still think Bran's morality is fine - for now.

[mrunderhill]

I dont know... I still think you would be demanding ethics and morality from an 11 year old medieval lordling with no parent or educator around to guide him anymore - remember, this is a world which usually breeds Jofreys, Ramseys, Cleganes, Danis, etc. I still think Bran's morality is fine - for now.

Bran had a much better upbringing that Joffrey for one and those others are not the usual. Bran is fully aware of what he is doing.

It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing." He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, "I didn't, though."

"Good. Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten."

Bran has even jumped to Hodors defense before. Bran is slipping down the morality scale and I don't think Bloodraven is the kind of man to pull him back up.

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him.

[kiasyd]

Indeed, all his moral tutors were killed - some in front of him - I think this does have an effect on a child's moral behaviour.

[mrunderhill]

Indeed, all his moral tutors were killed - some in front of him - I think this does have an effect on a child's moral behaviour.

Yes, but at least he had a moral foundation to begin with. People like Joffrey and Drogo had their morals corrupted from before they could speak, but I don't see people making excuses for them.

[kiasyd]

Yes, but at least he had a moral foundation to begin with. People like Joffrey and Drogo had their morals corrupted from before they could speak, but I don't see people making excuses for them.

A reason is not an excuse - seriously, I don't care about moral guilt - I'm not taking sides, just stating that there are shades of gray. Bran's tutors have a bunch of moral failures as well as every other character in ASOIAF: Ned, Cat and I'm sure we can find something to pin on Maester Luwin as well - this is precisely one of the greatest virtues of ASOAIF: The characters all seem so real due of their moral failures, that is what makes the Kingslayer so loveable, for instance. it surely doesn't mean we should go around in the real world body-snatching or cutting down totalitarian regents.

[JackinAcar]

Yes, but at least he had a moral foundation to begin with. People like Joffrey and Drogo had their morals corrupted from before they could speak, but I don't see people making excuses for them.

I make excuses for Joffrey all the time. He's my favorite foil to Stannis. Anything Joffrey has done, Stannis did worse. Moral foundation just leads to more resilient self-justification.

[LordStoneheart]

Bran has shaky morals... How is he supposed to have any grasp of morals if he never has had a teacher for warging? Nothing Haggon says can be used against Bran because that savage was never Bran's teacher in the first place. We've only heard it from Haggon through Varamyr that these things are supposed to be bad. If the COTF say its good or bad, I'd sooner trust them.

What Bran is doing to Hodor is not a minor offense. He's basically torturing and slowly killing poor Hodor, a good creature who always helped him.

How is it killing him? and hehehe... creature...

And there a few occasions when Hodor has slammed Bran's head against something when carrying him. Before you post "He's retarded; he doesn't know any better!" remember that Bran doesn't know any better about warging Hodor also. I still insist that if its alright for him to warg Summer or any other animal, its alright for Hodor.

Also you can't judge a community by the behaviour of its worst elements. Do we say that Westerosi have no morals because of Gregor, the Tickler etc. ?

Val would kill Shireen because she thinks that what she has is contagious in some ways.

I haven't seen any good elements of the wildlings though. They're "no kneeling" mindset is just about pride and not a wise thing seeing as wildling life is much harder than "kneelers."

And could Val not get the information about the girl before she decides to say she should just outright be killed? Shireen has had greyscale for a long time and doesn't seem to have given it to anyone else around her. But leave her to the much-praised Val and she'll most likely be killed.

[mrunderhill]

Bran has shaky morals... How is he supposed to have any grasp of morals if he never has had a teacher for warging? Nothing Haggon says can be used against Bran because that savage was never Bran's teacher in the first place. We've only heard it from Haggon through Varamyr that these things are supposed to be bad. If the COTF say its good or bad, I'd sooner trust them.

How is it killing him? and hehehe... creature...

And there a few occasions when Hodor has slammed Bran's head against something when carrying him. Before you post "He's retarded; he doesn't know any better!" remember that Bran doesn't know any better about warging Hodor also. I still insist that if its alright for him to warg Summer or any other animal, its alright for Hodor.

Just read through the thread. Bran instinctively knows what he is doing to Hodor is wrong. The quotes have been provided, but he still goes ahead with it.

[blood of the dragoon]

I'm not too concerned for them about any wildling 'legal' repercussions.

Now cause and effect that may have informed these rules is another story... Who knows what thus well do to their character, or if some supernatural repercussions will be there?

[daario's man]

Bran is wrong to warg Hodor, but it's not because he is human it's because he doesn't accept Bran as for instance Summer does. Varamyr is just as wrong to warg his ice bear.

The other two rules do seem to be in place to ensure that a warg holds on to their humanity, but they seem like guidelines to me as opposed to hard and fast rules, Jojen has similar suggestions to Haggon's rules but they never struck me as imperative.

With regard to the the rule of not having sex while warging, it surely must occur to everyone that Bran will never be physically capable of sex. I know he is still prepubescent but he is aware of why people have sex and he clearly has an infatuation with Meera. If when he is a bit older he slips into Summer's skin and gets it on with a she wolf, I for one won't judge him.

[mrunderhill]

Bran is wrong to warg Hodor, but it's not because he is human it's because he doesn't accept Bran as for instance Summer does. Varamyr is just as wrong to warg his ice bear.

The other two rules do seem to be in place to ensure that a warg holds on to their humanity, but they seem like guidelines to me as opposed to hard and fast rules, Jojen has similar suggestions to Haggon's rules but they never struck me as imperative.

With regard to the the rule of not having sex while warging, it surely must occur to everyone that Bran will never be physically capable of sex. I know he is still prepubescent but he is aware of why people have sex and he clearly has an infatuation with Meera. If when he is a bit older he slips into Summer's skin and gets it on with a she wolf, I for one won't judge him.

Question is it worse to force an animal to do something or is it worse to force a human?

[JackinAcar]

it surely must occur to everyone that Bran will never be physically capable of sex.

This is not necessarily so. According to this, 66% of men with a spinal cord injury are capable of an erection sufficient for sex.

http://www.intechopen.com/books/erectile-dysfunction-disease-associated-mechanisms-and-novel-insights-into-therapy/erectile-dysfunction-in-paraplegic-males

[LordStoneheart]

Just read through the thread. Bran instinctively knows what he is doing to Hodor is wrong. The quotes have been provided, but he still goes ahead with it.

Not an "abomination" in his mind though. He hasn't been taught not to do it by any other wargs yet. The COTF might tell him to stop eventually if its actually bad (which I don't agree that it is.)

Question is it worse to force an animal to do something or is it worse to force a human?

Exactly. I think both should be thought of as the same, especially with someone like Hodor.

Bran is wrong to warg Hodor, but it's not because he is human it's because he doesn't accept Bran as for instance Summer does. Varamyr is just as wrong to warg his ice bear.

The other two rules do seem to be in place to ensure that a warg holds on to their humanity, but they seem like guidelines to me as opposed to hard and fast rules, Jojen has similar suggestions to Haggon's rules but they never struck me as imperative.

With regard to the the rule of not having sex while warging, it surely must occur to everyone that Bran will never be physically capable of sex. I know he is still prepubescent but he is aware of why people have sex and he clearly has an infatuation with Meera. If when he is a bit older he slips into Summer's skin and gets it on with a she wolf, I for one won't judge him.

Umm... gross and kind of funny... hehe. I've wondered if Varamyr was gender-confused or something why he was warging into the female dog during their mating. Or maybe I read that wrong.

And I agree, no one defends the snowbear, and that thing carried around Varamyr against its will unlike Hodor who seems generally attached to Bran.