[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[YTDN]

^^^They did have Karstark's mention in Episode 2 that 'you lost the war when you married her'. I think the reason they haven't mentioned it too much is they don't want to telegraph the Red Wedding. It's still pretty obvious that Robb is losing- see his scenes in Episode 3 ('We need our men more than Tywin needs his') and Episode 5 ('Tywin knows what he needs to do to make us unravel. Nothing.').

Weren't we supposed to have *whatshisface* Manderly on this season? Where is he?

We know from trailers that he's going to be at the Red Wedding. Other than that, no idea.

[Cas Stark]

This is where you're letting your fanboy-ism interfere with reality. People will care because he's a Stark. Every single non-reader I know is still on Team Stark. If there's one complaint I have about Robb's story is that they haven't put enough focus on why the North is losing the war. They haven't focused on how poor of a decision it was to marry Talisa Lannister. They haven't done enough to illustrate that Tywin is winning the war of politics. One thing I would have done is introduced a political player in KL that was still sympathetic to the Starks to show the political war and to remind everyone that "winter is coming." That way, you connect the importance of Robb's story and the story North of Wall and why the Others matter to everyone including KL. This was also an error by Martin. There's always been a disconnect between the soap opera of KL and the coming of winter.

But that is missing the point. Of course Robb dying is going to have impact. The point is that D & D claimed the RW was their major motivation for wanting to do the show and that they have, by their decision making, robbed it of much of its meaning because there are going to be no loyal bannermen that the viewers have ever seen who die along side Robb.

[Joyful Union]

Most of the characters who died at the red wedding were just names on a page, no different from red shirts in star trek, just extras that were vaguely familiar. I definitely dont think it will rob the RW of its impact. What matters is Cat and Robb, not random characters that were barely there. It would've been better to set up some bannerman, and have them interact and become a part of the show, but the impact is definitely not ruined due to the lack of RW fodder.

[Cas Stark]

Most of the characters who died at the red wedding were just names on a page, no different from red shirts in star trek, just extras that were vaguely familiar. I definitely dont think it will rob the RW of its impact. What matters is Cat and Robb, not random characters that were barely there. It would've been better to set up some bannerman, and have them interact and become a part of the show, but the impact is definitely not ruined due to the lack of RW fodder.

Then I guess they may as well stage it as a dinner party then, if the rest of the people killed at the RW don't matter, they can save even more budget for whores in King's Landing in future episodes.

[I'm_Tim]

But that is missing the point. Of course Robb dying is going to have impact. The point is that D & D claimed the RW was their major motivation for wanting to do the show and that they have, by their decision making, robbed it of much of its meaning because there are going to be no loyal bannermen that the viewers have ever seen who die along side Robb.

Only to you. The Umbers would have made the action the scene better. The whole "protect the king" hide behind the table part, but few would care about their death. 2 main characters are about to die, and more importantly the North's chances of winning the war. That's enough for impact. In fact, it might be too much and turn people off. Many people watch the show because they want the Starks to win. They might leave when they see the Starks have no chance. GRRM tends to be overly heavy handed. Subtlety isn't one of his traits.

[Joyful Union]

Then I guess they may as well stage it as a dinner party then, if the rest of the people killed at the RW don't matter, they can save even more budget for whores in King's Landing in future episodes.

Apart from the Manderly, no, the actual names of the lords who die at the RW are not of much importance. The scene being "robbed" of its emotional impact implies that it doesnt have any emotional impact at all, the appearance of a few minor characters wont make all the difference in the world. It may make the scene better, but their absence wont ruin the scene, that's just hyperbole. If you want to talk about what "matters", what matters is the Stark force is decimated, Robb and Catelyn die, and Edmure is now married to a Frey and a captive.

[Oakenfist]

They got rid of all the colourful bannermen. I've made a few posts about this already.

In season 1 when Robb is declared King in the North, we see numerous banners around the hall and many of Robb's bannermen. By season 2 they're completely gone. What happened to the Glovers, Umbers, Manderlys, Mormonts, Tallharts, etc.

The RW isn't just about the murder of Robb but all of Robb's trusted honour guard which consisted of both Northmen and RIverlander nobles. SmallJon throwing over the dinner table over Robb while being mauled by Freys in a last ditch effort to save his King. That's shocking stuff to read.

[FlipFantastic]

I'm more concerned that Mel can supposedly scoop up Gendry and make it all the way to Blackwater Bay/King's Landing while characters like Dany and Rob cant move 6 inches. Rob hasnt moved in 2 seasons. Just kill him already.

[KhalFrodo]

When I read the books the first time, the death of the Smalljon really stuck with me. I don't know why they cut all of the Northern bannerman, but I don't like it. You didn't have to give them a large amount of screen time. D&D could have given them the time that was given to Talisa's ass and I would have been happy. Honestly, how hard would it be to have Robb say "Smalljon/Greatjon/Maege, what do you suggest for this or that?"

After the massacre of the HotU last year, I kind of gave up on any chance that they would do the RW right. Hopefully it's not so bad that it makes me stop watching the show.

[juanml82]

I think the bigger losses are Greywind, and the implication that Robb is a warg as well; the forced introduction of Lord Manderly' son; and maybe one more bannerman, maybe Lady Mormont (who's related to two other well known characters).

TV!Robb is rather isolated, and that works. Also, we should remember that, given the sheer amount of bannermen every major House commands, in a first read most of them are just names in the paper, not much more than redshirts. You need a second read to remember most of of the names. OTOH, it makes hard for continuity in the next seasons: Manderly will appear out of nowhere and the Mormonts might be cut altogether - where are the hidden Stark loyalists?

[Joyful Union]

They got rid of all the colourful bannermen. I've made a few posts about this already.

In season 1 when Robb is declared King in the North, we see numerous banners around the hall and many of Robb's bannermen. By season 2 they're completely gone. What happened to the Glovers, Umbers, Manderlys, Mormonts, Tallharts, etc.

The RW isn't just about the murder of Robb but all of Robb's trusted honour guard which consisted of both Northmen and RIverlander nobles. SmallJon throwing over the dinner table over Robb while being mauled by Freys in a last ditch effort to save his King. That's shocking stuff to read.

Well, in the show, there would still be bannermen, and they would be just like they were in S1, extras we've never seen before. Smalljon is a good example, as he was only ever mentioned a couple of times, and never actually had a line, but there he is as Robb's bodyguard. His role can easily be filled by an extra, it makes little difference. Even Dacey Mormont was a tiny presence. GreatJon doesnt even die at the RW, so it wouldn't have been that shocking even if he was in the show for the RW.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Apart from the Manderly, no, the actual names of the lords who die at the RW are not of much importance. The scene being "robbed" of its emotional impact implies that it doesnt have any emotional impact at all, the appearance of a few minor characters wont make all the difference in the world. It may make the scene better, but their absence wont ruin the scene, that's just hyperbole. If you want to talk about what "matters", what matters is the Stark force is decimated, Robb and Catelyn die, and Edmure is now married to a Frey and a captive.

But it will lol. The RW is about butchering half the nobility of the north, the people who chose Robb to be King of the North. Where are all those bannermen that yelled "THE KING IN THE NORTH" back in season 1? They should be on the screen, during war councils, and dying at the RW. Right now RW is shaping as a garden party for Robb, Talisa, and that other old woman, i can't remember her name. Was it Catelyn or sth?

[I'm_Tim]

They got rid of all the colourful bannermen. I've made a few posts about this already.

In season 1 when Robb is declared King in the North, we see numerous banners around the hall and many of Robb's bannermen. By season 2 they're completely gone. What happened to the Glovers, Umbers, Manderlys, Mormonts, Tallharts, etc.

The RW isn't just about the murder of Robb but all of Robb's trusted honour guard which consisted of both Northmen and RIverlander nobles. SmallJon throwing over the dinner table over Robb while being mauled by Freys in a last ditch effort to save his King. That's shocking stuff to read.

It's not powerful because its SmallJon. It's powerful because its Robb. My favorite parts are the Frey band (hilarious) and when the Mormont chick discovers the Bolton wearing mail. My first reaction was, "Oh God, no" when she discovered the mail. They can use anybody in that role. It doesn't have to be a Mormont.

[Theda Baratheon]

No one is going to give a fuck about the RW the way they are so poorly handling it.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

It's not powerful because its SmallJon. It's powerful because its Robb. My favorite parts are the Frey band (hilarious) and when the Mormont chick discovers the Bolton wearing mail. My first reaction was, "Oh God, no" when she discovered the mail. They can use anybody in that role. It doesn't have to be a Mormont.

Well i had exactly the opposite reaction. Seeing how Robb's kind of a dumbass (even worse in the show) i didn't care for him getting killed, and a lot of the book readers have the same opinion (it's been discussed on the boards over and over). The horrible part was that all those loyal people got killed only for following him.

[Cas Stark]

But it will lol. The RW is about butchering half the nobility of the north, the people who chose Robb to be King of the North. Where are all those bannermen that yelled "THE KING IN THE NORTH" back in season 1? They should be on the screen, during war councils, and dying at the RW. Right now RW is shaping as a garden party for Robb, Talisa, and that other old woman, i can't remember her name. Was it Catelyn or sth?

Exactly. Just seat them all at a dinner table and kill them, get it over with.

[I'm_Tim]

No one is going to give a fuck about the RW the way they are so poorly handling it.

Except the vast majority of the audience. The message board fanboys won't like it because they don't like anything. 95% of the millions of viewers will be heartbroken. Hopefully they won't be heartbroken enough to stop watching.

[Oakenfist]

When I read the books the first time, the death of the Smalljon really stuck with me. I don't know why they cut all of the Northern bannerman, but I don't like it. You didn't have to give them a large amount of screen time. D&D could have given them the time that was given to Talisa's ass and I would have been happy. Honestly, how hard would it be to have Robb say "Smalljon/Greatjon/Maege, what do you suggest for this or that?"

After the massacre of the HotU last year, I kind of gave up on any chance that they would do the RW right. Hopefully it's not so bad that it makes me stop watching the show.

They gave Tywin a real war council in both season 1 and 2. Not sure why Robb's council consists of Cat, Bolton, Karstark, Blackfish, Edmure, and Talisa's ass.

[chewietobbacca]

Except the vast majority of the audience. The message board fanboys won't like it because they don't like anything. 95% of the millions of viewers will be heartbroken. Hopefully they won't be heartbroken enough to stop watching.

This.

Most people complaining forget that you can't film a TV show like a book - you don't have hours of introspection and details - every character you want to build up requires screen time. Manderly will be there, and he obviously plays a role in the future, but the other characters? Probably minor and unnecessary and long forgotten in a season or two for the vast majority of TV watchers

Also, audiences have short attention spans - people barely remember how Theon got into his predicament.

The main point of the RW to TV viewers will be that two main characters will be dead and that the King of the North is dead and the rebellion effectively finished

[Theda Baratheon]

Except the vast majority of the audience. The message board fanboys won't like it because they don't like anything. 95% of the millions of viewers will be heartbroken. Hopefully they won't be heartbroken enough to stop watching.

They'll be heart broken for this ''doomed'' love affair with Robb and Talisa, none of them will care about Catelyn who is the lens in which we experience the Red Wedding in the book. And that is just sickening to me, what they have done to Catelyn's character is one of my most hated parts of the show (and I'm a massive fan of the TV show actually) so I feel the RW will have much, much, MUCH less of an emotional impact in the show than it does in the books.