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Drogon = The Stallion Who Mounts the World


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#1 yolkboy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

The 'Stallion who Mounts the World' is a Dothraki prophesy, first mentioned to Dany by the one eyed Crone in Vaes Dothrak. However, we can see from what Jorah says that the prophesy was first conceived a long time ago, and has likely been re-told and passed down ever since.

“The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised.”


Let's imagine how the prophesy came about. In anchient times, a powerful and wise Dothraki crone might have looked into 'the smoke', as the one eyed crone did in aGoT.

The anchient crone sees, in her minds eye, a united Khalasar heading to some kind of war. Leading them seems to be a dragon. However, at that stage the crone had never seen a dragon before, and perhaps no Dothraki had. There might not have even a Dothraki word for Dragon back then.

So, the crone tries to interpret what these beast might be, and of course, being Dothraki, describes it as a 'Stallion'. The Dothraki seem to interpret things they don't understand as being horse related. Example...

The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night.


The crone sees the 'Stallion' flying in front of/leading the united Khalasar. She knows what flying is, she has seen birds. However, there is something troubling about the scenario. The Dothraki, a very traditional race, are proud of their customs. One of their key beliefs is that a the leader of a Khalasar MUST RIDE.

“Drogo’s khalasar is gone,” she said.
“A khal who cannot ride is no khal,” said Jhogo.


So the crone doesn't interpret the Stallion as flying, it must be riding. She shoe-horns, and sees that the Stallion is in fact riding... It's riding the world... it has mounted the world.
So 'mounting the world' is allegorical, it means flying. That ties the visions together with the Dothraki beliefs.

The Stallion That Mounts the World = The Dragon that Fly's.
Given what we know is happening at the end of aDwD, and that Dany sees herself with the Dosh Khaleen in tHotU, we can assume that the dragon is Drogon.

Over the years and re-tellings, the original 'Stallion' vision and prophesy has simply been personified. The Dothraki are expecting a person to unite the Khalasars.

***The notion that anchient prophesies might be misinterpretations due to cultural limitations apparently comes from Tze.



The One Eyed Crone's Prophesy

This prophesy is often cited as 'proof' that these ancient prophesies are false or fallible... this reflection comes not only from the reader, but from Dany as well.

He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind.


So it seems GRRM wants us to believe that this prophesy was wind. However, given what's been said above, and given that GRRM is the master of mis-direction, the occasion needs to be looked at again. It's not clear what parts of this are from her 'vision' and what parts are re-tellings, but here's what the Crone says...

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name." "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."


So, if Drogon is 'The Stallion', and the dragon causes the Khalasars to unite, perhaps the one eyed Crone wasn't so wrong after all...

As swift as the wind he rides = flying
Behind him his khalasar = a huge Dothraki army, united
Fierce as a storm = a storm is essentially 'of the air', Drogon's wings sound like "a clap of thunder" in aDwD
His enemies tremble before him = makes more sense than any 'human'
men in stone tents fearing his name = ditto, think Harrenhall/Balerion
bells in his hair = hair could be a personification, and who's to say Dany won't give him some bells when he goes to war.

It's worth pointing out that the crone doesn't say the prince is in her womb or name him Rhaego, so there's nothing else drastically wrong.

So the only really questionable thing here is that Drogon is twice referred as a 'prince'. Although it's an abstract concept, it can be argued that Dany is the Mother of the dragons. The characters accept this, and i think Grrm wants the reader to. The debate about how 'literal' that interpretation is will go off topic, but it's fair to say that it can reasonably be construed (albeit abstactly) that Dany is the Mother of Drogon.
Therefore, if Dany is a Queen, Drogon is a Prince.

The last things to note...

I have seen his face.../
The old woman trembled and looked at Dany


Is this an indication the one eyed Crone saw Drogon's face in her vision? She must have seen many savage things in her time, i can't imagine the Dosh Khaleen frighten easily.

I have... heard the thunder of his hooves


sounds like...

His wings stretched twenty feet from tip to tip, black as jet. He flapped them once as he swept back above the sands, and the sound was like a clap of thunder.


Overall, it's very possible the Crone wasn't as wrong as many people think.


If Drogon belongs to Dany, why isn't she the StMtW?

“The Dothraki follow only the strong,”


If Dothraki follow power, they don't need to look much further than Drogon. They abandoned Dany, they have no fear of her herself. But Drogon... the respect would be inherent. Remember that if Drogon is a 'Stallion' to them, a stallion has a rider. It's not the 'rider of the StMtW' that they bow to, it's the Stallion himself. Also bear in mind that Dany doesn't have full control of Drogon yet. I think we might see a display of power from Drogon, perhaps at Vaes Dothrak, that will be impressive enough to unite the Khalasars.
The Dothraki will follow Dany and fight for her, but only because of their amazement/awe/fear towards Drogon. If Drogon were to fly off, never to be seen again... i have a feeling the Dothraki would do the same, as they did when Drogo fell ill.

Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.


This is from the HotU. It indicates the Dosh Khaleen might be submitting/revering Dany in the future. I guess it's some evidence that Dany could be tStMtW. Yet GRRM likes to trick us, and this seems too simple an interpretation. The scene is purposely short & vague, and we don't know where Drogon is here. I don't think it's a significant threat to Drogon=Stallion. But it does show us that something will go down in Vaes Dothrak, and the hint might be that the Dosh Khaleen & Khals will unite the Khalasars.

It's worth noting that Jorah states the Stallion is prophesised to "ride (fly) to the ends of the earth."

Edited by yolkboy, 21 September 2013 - 04:36 PM.


#2 mystikherb

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:32 PM

The 'Stallion who Mounts the World' is a Dothraki prophesy, first mentioned to Dany by the one eyed Crone in Vaes Dothrak. However, we can see from what Jorah says that the prophesy was first conceived a long time ago, and has likely been re-told and passed down ever since.



Let's imagine how the prophesy came about. In anchient times, a powerful and wise Dothraki crone might have looked into 'the smoke', as the one eyed crone did in aGoT.

The anchient crone sees, in her minds eye, a united Khalasar heading to some kind of war. Leading them seems to be a dragon. However, at that stage the crone had never seen a dragon before, and perhaps no Dothraki had. There might not have even a Dothraki word for Dragon back then.

So, the crone tries to interpret what these beast might be, and of course, being Dothraki, describes it as a 'Stallion'. The Dothraki seem to interpret things they don't understand as being horse related. Example...



The crone sees the 'Stallion' flying in front of/leading the united Khalasar. She knows what flying is, she has seen birds. However, there is something troubling about the scenario. The Dothraki, a very traditional race, are proud of their customs. One of their key beliefs is that a the leader of a Khalasar MUST RIDE.



So the crone doesn't interpret the Stallion as flying, it must be riding. She shoe-horns, and sees that the Stallion is in fact riding... It's riding the world... it has MOUNTED THE WORLD.
So 'mounting the world' is allegorical, it means flying. That ties the visions together with the Dothraki beliefs.

The Stallion That Mounts the World = The Dragon that Fly's.
Given what we know is happening at the end of aDwD, and that Dany sees herself with the Dosh Khaleen in tHotU, we can assume that the dragon is Drogon.

Over the years and re-tellings, the original 'Stallion' vision and prophesy has simply been personified. The Dothraki are expecting a person to unite the Khalasars.

***The notion that anchient prophesies might be misinterpretations due to cultural limitations apparently comes from Tze.



The One Eyed Crone's Prophesy

This prophesy is often cited as 'proof' that these ancient prophesies are false or fallible... this reflection comes not only from the reader, but from Dany as well.



So it seems GRRM wants us to believe that this prophesy was wind. However, given what's been said above, and given that GRRM is the master of mis-direction, the occasion needs to be looked at again. It's not clear what parts of this are from her 'vision' and what parts are re-tellings, but here's what the Crone says...



So, if Drogon is 'The Stallion', and the dragon causes the Khalasars to unite, perhaps the one eyed Crone wasn't so wrong after all...

As swift as the wind he rides = flying
Behind him his khalasar = a huge Dothraki army, united
Fierce as a storm = a storm is essentially 'of the air', Drogon's wings sound like "a clap of thunder" in aDwD
His enemies tremble before him = makes more sense than any 'human'
men in stone tents fearing his name = ditto, think Harrenhall/Balerion
bells in his hair = hair could be a personification, and who's to say Dany won't give him some bells when he goes to war.

It's worth pointing out that the crone doesn't say the prince is in her womb or name him Rhaego, so there's nothing else drastically wrong.

So the only really questionable thing here is that Drogon is twice referred as a 'prince'. Although it's an abstract concept, it can be argued that Dany is the Mother of the dragons. The characters accept this, and i think Grrm wants the reader to. The debate about how 'literal' that interpretation is will go off topic, but it's fair to say that it can reasonably be construed (albeit abstactly) that Dany is the Mother of Drogon.
Therefore, if Dany is a Queen, Drogon is a Prince.

The last things to note...



Is this an indication the one eyed Crone saw Drogon's face in her vision? She must have seen many savage things in her time, i can't imagine the Dosh Khaleen frighten easily.



sounds like...



Overall, it's very possible the Crone wasn't as wrong as many people think.

Isn't everything fitting together rather nicely?


If Drogon belongs to Dany, why isn't she the StMtW?



If Dothraki follow power, they don't need to look much further than Drogon. They abandoned Dany, they have no fear of her herself. But Drogon... the respect would be inherent. Remember that if Drogon is a 'Stallion' to them, a stallion has a rider. It's not the 'rider of the StMtW' that they bow to, it's the Stallion himself. Also bear in mind that Dany doesn't have full control of Drogon yet. I think we might see a display of power from Drogon, perhaps at Vaes Dothrak, that will be impressive enough to unite the Khalasars.
The Dothraki will follow Dany and fight for her, but only because of their amazement/awe/fear towards Drogon. If Drogon were to fly off, never to be seen again... i have a feeling the Dothraki would do the same, as they did when Drogo fell ill.



This is from the HotU. It indicates the Dosh Khaleen might be submitting/revering Dany in the future. I guess it's some evidence that Dany could be tStMtW. Yet GRRM likes to trick us, and this seems too simple an interpretation. The scene is purposely short & vague, and we don't know where Drogon is here. I don't think it's a significant threat to Drogon=Stallion. But it does show us that something will go down in Vaes Dothrak, and the hint might be that the Dosh Khaleen & Khals will unite the Khalasars.

The Dothraki might bow to Dany. But only because her ride is... The Stallion Who Mounts The World.

It's worth noting that Jorah states the Stallion is prophesised to "ride (fly) to the ends of the earth."


I think that while that may (possibly) work in the story, the more important thing you've got me thinking about (and I feel like this theme will be abundant before the saga is over) is what the Dothraki think is going on. I mean, "power resides where men believe it resides". Dany's last scene in DWD (by the way, I hope to GOD that the show get's that far, if for no reason but that since I finished that book I've been dying to see that image replicated with the Dothraki finding Dany feeding with Drogon) could support your theory, at least in the sense that walking upon that scene could very likely make them believe exactly the theory you just posted.

Another theory that would work is if they believe "The Stallion" is Dany herself when they see her in such a brutal/powerful light. I mean it would take a lot for them to believe the prophecy referred to a woman, but at the same time she was at one point part of a Dothraki tribe, and they respect those who are strong- what the hell is stronger than feeding on flesh with your dragon?

#3 Frey family reunion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:36 PM

Just out of curiosity, why Drogon and not one of her other children?

#4 Strongest Of All Belwas

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:37 PM

Vargo Hoat's Zorse is StMtW. GRRM confirmed it a while back.

Edited by Strongest Of All Belwas, 15 May 2013 - 09:38 PM.


#5 mystikherb

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:38 PM

Just out of curiosity, why Drogon and not one of her other children?


Just guessing, but probably because Drogon is by far the most unpredictable, and in my opinion has been portrayed as the biggest and more powerful than the others. Plus the fact that it was named after a Khal. That would just be what I think.

#6 mystikherb

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

Vargo Hoat's Zorse is StMtW. GRRM confirmed it a while back.

Vargo Hoat's Zorse is StMtW. GRRM confirmed it a while back.


?

#7 yolkboy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

Just out of curiosity, why Drogon and not one of her other children?


Given what we know is happening at the end of aDwD, and that Dany sees herself with the Dosh Khaleen in tHotU, we can assume that the dragon is Drogon.


I think Dany will be heading to Vaes Daothrak in one way or another, and she just happens to be with Drogon, the largest most powerful dragon.

#8 Frey family reunion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:56 PM

I think Dany will be heading to Vaes Daothrak in one way or another, and she just happens to be with Drogon, the largest most powerful dragon.

Why would the Prince, the stallion that mounts the world be ridden?

Remember the first ritual before the hatching of the dragons? The first ritual occurred two nights before the hatching. It appeared to be a blood ritual similar to the ritual Moqorro performed on Victarion. It involved the sacrifice of both Dany's unborn son and Drogo's stallion. The morning after her ritual, Dany holds the white and gold egg and feels life stirring within. This is the egg that will hatch Viserion. Not coincidentally, Viserion's egg is the first to hatch in Drogo's funeral pyre.

Now fast forward in time as the dragons get older and their personalities begin to come forth and see how Viserion is described:

...Viserion flapped at her and tried to perch on her shoulder, as he had when he was smaller. 'No' Dany said, trying to shrug him off gently. 'You're too big for that now, sweetling.'


ASOS Chpt. 23.

Viserion is the dragon that shows affection to Brown Ben, presumably because of his Valyrian bloodline(s).

When Dany makes her trip to the pit, it is Viserion that tries to makes his way to her. Rhaegal apparently makes no such attempt.

When Quentyn tries to steal Dany's dragons, Viserion heads to Pretty Meris sniffing her out,

The woman, Quentyn realized. He knows that she is female. He is looking for Daenerys. He wants his mother and does not understand why she's not here.


ADWD the Dragontamer.

Life for a life: I think that Viserion was brought to life from Rhaego. I think that Drogon was brought to life from Drogo. Hence Drogon's greater independence, fierceness, love of the battle arena and how he was drawn back to the Dothraki Sea.

If the crones saw Dany's child as the Stallion to Mount the World, it seems more likely that the life of her unborn child is living on in Viserion.

Now some interesting imagery re: her white and gold child:

Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail.


ADWD Daenerys 1. Two interesting symbols here: one is the Ouroboros which represents cyclicality and re-creation. And the pear tree which in Christianity represents mankind's salvation.

My personal belief is that Viserion is Lightbringer, born of AA through the death of her spouse. Might he also be the Stallion that Mounts the world?

#9 yolkboy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:25 PM

Why would the Prince, the stallion that mounts the world be ridden?


Because stallions are there to be ridden. This is Dothraki culture. And how else is an army of dothraki supposed to follow a dragon?

Interesting thoughts about Viscerion, maybe you can take things from my theory and adapt them into yours.

I just think Drogon makes sense because the Dothraki are definitely going to encounter him and see his power very soon!

#10 mystikherb

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:28 PM

Because stallions are there to be ridden. This is Dothraki culture. And how else is an army of dothraki supposed to follow a dragon?

Interesting thoughts about Viscerion, maybe you can take things from my theory and adapt them into yours.

I just think Drogon makes sense because the Dothraki are definitely going to encounter him and see his power very soon!


This, plus it would just work with the symbolism in his name.

#11 mindchap

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:28 PM

Does this make the world the Mare?

#12 yolkboy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

Does this make the world the Mare?


No, mounting in this context is not sexual. It means riding. I'm suggesting 'mounting the world' is an allegory of flying. The explanation is here....

Let's imagine how the prophesy came about. In anchient times, a powerful and wise Dothraki crone might have looked into 'the smoke', as the one eyed crone did in aGoT.

The anchient crone sees, in her minds eye, a united Khalasar heading to some kind of war. Leading them seems to be a dragon. However, at that stage the crone had never seen a dragon before, and perhaps no Dothraki had. There might not have even a Dothraki word for Dragon back then.

So, the crone tries to interpret what these beast might be, and of course, being Dothraki, describes it as a 'Stallion'. The Dothraki seem to interpret things they don't understand as being horse related. Example...
(quote)
The crone sees the 'Stallion' flying in front of/leading the united Khalasar. She knows what flying is, she has seen birds. However, there is something troubling about the scenario. The Dothraki, a very traditional race, are proud of their customs. One of their key beliefs is that a the leader of a Khalasar MUST RIDE.
(quote)
So the crone doesn't interpret the Stallion as flying, it must be riding. She shoe-horns, and sees that the Stallion is in fact riding... It's riding the world... it has MOUNTED THE WORLD.
So 'mounting the world' is allegorical, it means flying. That ties the visions together with the Dothraki beliefs.



#13 mindchap

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:39 PM

No, mounting in this context is not sexual. It means riding. I'm suggesting 'mounting the world' is an allegory of flying. The explanation is here....


Sorry, that was a joke. But when you search the pdfs "mounting" is usually used in a sexual context.

#14 yolkboy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:37 PM

Sorry, that was a joke. But when you search the pdfs "mounting" is usually used in a sexual context.


Ah sorry, i didn't know if you were joking. When i first heard the phrase 'stallion who mounts the world' i thought it had sexual connotations. /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />

#15 WinterKing

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:56 PM

This theory reminds me of one,by Tze,I think, that the salt and smoke were mist and snow.Great Job! I like it.

#16 The Idiots Lantern

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:10 PM

It'd be so like GRRM to have Drogon abandon Dany right when she needs him most so we can't predict how her stint with the new Khalasaar will end. The possibilities range everywhere from being raped and enslaved, to taking over, to killing them all. It'll all depend on Drogon.

But to the Dothraki, your status is determined by what you ride. In that world, a dragonrider would be someone who could unite the Khalasaars through sheer force of a dragon being so much more powerful then a horse...

#17 mystikherb

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:40 PM

It'd be so like GRRM to have Drogon abandon Dany right when she needs him most so we can't predict how her stint with the new Khalasaar will end. The possibilities range everywhere from being raped and enslaved, to taking over, to killing them all. It'll all depend on Drogon.

But to the Dothraki, your status is determined by what you ride. In that world, a dragonrider would be someone who could unite the Khalasaars through sheer force of a dragon being so much more powerful then a horse...


I think it's unlikely that after that whole scene where Drogon returns and Dany rides off on him that he'd abandon her at that point.

But I'm faaaaaaaaaar from saying it definitely won't happen.

#18 yolkboy

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:33 PM

This theory reminds me of one,by Tze,I think, that the salt and smoke were mist and snow.Great Job! I like it.


Yes! It was definitely inspired by what Tze apparently said about salt and smoke. Apple Martini mentioned it the other day and it blew my mind. I have given Tze some credit in the post, i think that way of thinking is brilliance.

But to the Dothraki, your status is determined by what you ride. In that world, a dragonrider would be someone who could unite the Khalasaars through sheer force of a dragon being so much more powerful then a horse...


Dothraki follow power. Drogon is power made flesh. I've looked at Dany being the stallion... and the evidence seems pretty thin to me.

"The stallion" indicates that this prophetic figure can be ridden. (Dragon)
"Mounts the world" indicates it can also ride something else. (the air, the wind, the World... flying)

#19 Maegor the Cuddly

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:36 PM

I approve. The Dothraki naturally evolve from horse-worshipping culture to dragon-worshipping culture.

#20 WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

A great theory and I agree. Just think of the irony, MMD did what she did to prevent STMTW from being born, and Drogon would never live if it weren't for her...