There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

^Two of us, I thought the same D:

[Errant Bard]

Would it kill you to go discuss your spoilers in the spoilers section of the forums?

[Gneisenau]

[spoiler from TWOW snipped].

The OP said there are trees in the mighty's place. I think that means the Sealord. The Sealord witnessed the Dorne Viserys pact. It could be Dany lived at the Sealord's place. In aDwD Arya kentions that once a Sealord dies "daggers will come out". Perhaps Viserys' mention of knvies is related to the bloody selection of the new Sealord.

[A Bastard Snow]

Lemons don't grow in Braavos because of climate.Gee if only there was an example of a place with a climate that doesn't aid growing yet people still growing things....Oh yea there is Winterfell had a glass garden growing stuff year round.If you are rich enough you can grow something anywhere you want.Also there is more then enough freshwater in Braavos.The rich have it piped into their homes and the poor have to bucket it back home.Sam didn't know jack about Braavos so him boiling water is not due to the fact there is no fresh water simply that he didn't know where the hell to get it.As for Dorne growing Citrus its simply cause they don't have enough land to grow large crops so instead of trying to compete with others growing Wheat and such they simply grow things that are expensive (citrus) If you have a huge amount of land (Highgarden) you can grow a massive surplus of food.When you live in the middle of the desert you need to grow something you can export that is expensive to make up for the lack of land you have.

[maiden of tarth]

In Sams chapter where he talks about not realising the high price of wood in Bravos, he says that only the rich and such have trees in their yards/gardens. Couldn't that then explain why Dany remembers seeing a lemon tree. William Darry wasn't exactly a pauper and he could afford servants. That would greatly suggest he could also afford a tree in his garden on his property in Bravos.

[A Bastard Snow]

Exactly my point Maiden.If you are in a city without trees having trees on your property is a clear example of your wealth.Having a small orchard of trees would be an even greater example of wealth.We know for a fact that the people of Braavos love to show off (bright vibrant colors expensive women and other such luxuries)Being able to say "Oh yea I got a grove of lemons in my manse so suck it seems like something they would do"

[Stubby]

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[Victarion Chainbreaker]

My apologies, Stubby.

To those arguing it's possible for someone really rich to grow lemons in Braavos, you're missing the point. George has given us an inconsistency. He has continued to emphasize this inconsistency throughout several books, so we know it's not a mistake, it's a hint.

[SeanF]

My apologies, Stubby.

To those arguing it's possible for someone really rich to grow lemons in Braavos, you're missing the point. George has given us an inconsistency. He has continued to emphasize this inconsistency throughout several books, so we know it's not a mistake, it's a hint.

It must be. I like the idea upthread that it's linked to Dany repressing some really unpleasant memory from her childhood.

BTW, I do like the picture you linked to, showing Dany gazing adoringly at Victarion.

[Sylva Santagar]

I mean, it's not like she has memories of a whole f#cking lemon orchard of epic proportions in her backyard... She remembers a lemon tree... I don't think that is so odd... Could be they had one because mone buys things people without money can't afford... I don't think they lived off lemon trade, it was most likely just luxury....

[Margaret Ballinger]

My apologies, Stubby.

To those arguing it's possible for someone really rich to grow lemons in Braavos, you're missing the point. George has given us an inconsistency. He has continued to emphasize this inconsistency throughout several books, so we know it's not a mistake, it's a hint.

I agree! I worked at a plant nursery for over 12 years in California. Lemons need heat. They wouldn't survive a hard frost and they are picky about the water. We often had customers that failed to give them the proper food, or planted them in lawns and gave them lawn food. Improper water and nutrients will yield really poor fruit. Where I live has clay soil that holds water, and we get fog and sometimes too much rain so it's a struggle for them to even survive, even in the northern California valley. They get fungus issues and the roots just rot off if they stay too wet. All Citrus like soil that drains fast (pick up any citrus book and it will say: sandy loam soil) and long hours of dry heat. They do not like areas of fog. They need the dry heat for the flavor and to keep the fungus away.

From what I have read in chapters about Braavos, it mentions it having a lot of fog and moss growing on the roads and bridges. That sounds like a pretty moist enviroment. Then on top of it sounds like there would be salt in the soil from all the brackish water, which is really bad for any tree. Even if it's watered with imported water, there still would be mineral build-up in the soil and it would poison the tree over time. As soon as the tree got it's roots deep enough into the soil it would hit the water table, which would be salty, it would croak. It's not the matter of the being wealthy enough to afford one, it's a matter of the region being wrong.

Also please let me toss this in, but I have no idea what it means.

~Daenerys - A Clash of Kings

I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. “Little princess, there you are,” he said in his gruff kind voice. “Come,” he said, “come to me, my lady, you’re home now, you’re safe now.” His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He’s dead, he’s dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

[kingCotton66]

this is a fantasy world where summer and winters/summers can last from 5-10 years. with dragons and ghost babies that kill people, If we can buy into all this i don't think lemon tree climates has to be that stringent

[Sylva Santagar]

this is a fantasy world where summer and winters/summers can last from 5-10 years. with dragons and ghost babies that kill people, If we can buy into all this i don't think lemon tree climates has to be that stringent

well said :thumbsup:

[MoIaF]

this is a fantasy world where summer and winters/summers can last from 5-10 years. with dragons and ghost babies that kill people, If we can buy into all this i don't think lemon tree climates has to be that stringent

:agree:

This is what I was going to say. I mean this is a world where all Baratheons have dark hair and blue eyes. Genetics and ecology don't correlate with our world.

Besides the importance of the lemon tree for Dany is that it represents a longing for home and stability and a reminder of her lost childhood.

I don't think it goes any further than that. There are a lot more important mysteries to be resolved that whether or not lemon trees can grow in Braavos.

[boojam]

Throughout the books, Dany thinks of the one place she was truly happy.

This place is supposed to represent the lost notion of 'home' for Dany. However, there's one problem...

There are no lemon trees in Braavos.

This is not the only place George has inconsistencies, if it has something to do with Dany mis-remembering ... seems like a nit to me.

[Skythe1]

I think this point had been made a few times, but just because the climate isn't correct for growing trees en masse doesn't mean that a single tree couldn't be grown.

I live in England, and the climate isn't great for growing lemon trees, but I could grow one. It might not give me many lemons, but it would still be a lemon tree.

Personally I think it's just to show she lived in a nice house...

[yolkboy]

For those who are still commenting on this without reading through the thread (admittedly the discussion was long but a decent conclusions seems to have been made).

WoW March spoiler

Arya's sample further supports the notion there's a mystery about lemon trees that seems pruposeful. This time it's spelled out more clearly than ever.

Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes

I'll summarize what I think is the best idea here in the thread...

The key line seems to be here...

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty. (AFFC)

So there are lemon trees but ONLY in the courtyards of the mighty. This narrows down the potential venue of the House with the Red Door, in these subtle few words from AFFC.

Dr. Pepper's idea noted that the most likely candidate is the Sealord's Palace. He oversaw the Targ-Dorne marriage pact - and perhaps this was signed at the House with the Red Door. There's nobody mightier than the Sealord. And lemon trees are exclusive to Dorne in the books - the tree itself would be a sly wink to the Dorne-Targ-Sealord occurance.

That seems to be the best fit for the mystery, the most plausible here. Darry took Dany and Vis to the Sealords Palace to live, and they had to leave when the Sealord died perhaps, as 'knives come out then'.

So a look at the Lands of Ice and Fire Maps were interesting....

Braavos is completely devoid of gardens and trees. It's grey and dead all over.

Apart from the Sealord's Palace - which has a lovely huge beautiful garden out back with trees and bushes all around it.

See this map-shot

http://www.fantastic...ords-Palace.png

Look at the garden, with cosy cottages. Garden views (the lemon tree was outside Dany's window).

is this where dany grew up, on this small secluded idyllic spot on an otherwise barren island?

[Ser Greg of House House]

Yes. GRRM has clearly gone out of his way to talk about trees in Braavos. I guess there's something to it. But it points out that Dany was hosted by a powerful man, nothing more.

[MoIaF]

For those who are still commenting on this without reading through the thread (admittedly the discussion was long but a decent conclusions seems to have been made).

WoW March spoiler

Arya's sample further supports the notion there's a mystery about lemon trees that seems pruposeful. This time it's spelled out more clearly than ever.

Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes

I'll summarize what I think is the best idea here in the thread...

The key line seems to be here...

So there are lemon trees but ONLY in the courtyards of the mighty. This narrows down the potential venue of the House with the Red Door, in these subtle few words from AFFC.

Dr. Pepper's idea noted that the most likely candidate is the Sealord's Palace. He oversaw the Targ-Dorne marriage pact - and perhaps this was signed at the House with the Red Door. There's nobody mightier than the Sealord. And lemon trees are exclusive to Dorne in the books - the tree itself would be a sly wink to the Dorne-Targ-Sealord occurance.

That seems to be the best fit for the mystery, the most plausible here. Darry took Dany and Vis to the Sealords Palace to live, and they had to leave when the Sealord died perhaps, as 'knives come out then'.

Maybe you should add this to the OP.

[Ilúvatar]

Lemon trees in Braavos?