There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[yolkboy]

Banana trees grow in Oklahoma, even though they have no business being there.

Does Oklahoma have "no trees" otherwise? Or does it have almost poisoned soil and a canal system thats brackish? Were there banana trees or lemon trees in northern Europe in medieval times?

The message from GRRM is clear, it's repeated often enough... BRAAVOS IS NO PLACE FOR TREES

There is NO GRASS!!!

[WinterKing]

I've never been to Venice.Can anyone say how it is there,because Braavos is inspired by Venice.

[Dr. Pepper]

I did some research before i posted, and what i read indicated that lemon trees were confined to Mediterranean regions in days of old. Only when technology/methods and understanding increased were we able to grow them away rfom their natural environment. And does Minnesota have poisonous soil like Braavos seems to? Also, why are there only lemon trees in Dorne, when the rest of Westeros could be at it?

i could be wrong.

Like i said to Stannis, seems weird that GRRM kept highlighting that there we almost no trees in Braavos, and Dany's favourite memory of Braavos is a tree thats very hard to cultivate.

I don't really have any knowledge on historical agriculture, so I'm going to rely on the research you did. Does the research you found include whether or not this cultivation outside of ideal, native environment meant mass production and ornamental? One lemon tree in one courtyard in Braavos would be ornamental, but a lemon tree in every courtyard would be more like mass production. It would likely be a very small lemon tree (we have one growing in the backyard where I grew up, actually. I was shocked when I saw my first 'real' lemon tree because those things are big). If NO ONE in the days of old was ever able to move a lemon tree from Palestine to England, then I see your point.

Lemons are linked to Sansa's cakes - naivete and innocence. Also, the lemon tree is outside, Dany is inside, so she is separated from her innocence and perhaps longs to be outside and free, like the lemon tree.

I like this.

[Penguin king]

Wait, I thought that massive aqueduct supplied Braavos with water. Why is there a need to boil it?

The water in the canals is not the same as the water in the aqueducts. Either way, boiling water is a helthy precaution in a society of that tech level. in the days before modern water purification, the two effective ways to avoid diseases like cholera were boiling water, often to drink with something like tea or coffee or brewing small beer so that the alcohol purified the water,

Lemons are linked to Sansa's cakes - naivete and innocence. Also, the lemon tree is outside, Dany is inside, so she is separated from her innocence and perhaps longs to be outside and free, like the lemon tree.

Oh yeah lemon cakes. Dunno how i missed that one. Maybe Dany's lemon tree is entirely symbolic, The red door represents innocence, and the lemons are an extension of that. Whether they really existed or not, they're a symbol of what Dany has lost and can never find again.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The water in the canals is not the same as the water in the aqueducts. Either way, boiling water is a helthy precaution in a society of that tech level. in the days before modern water purification, the two effective ways to avoid diseases like cholera were boiling water, often to drink with something like tea or coffee or brewing small beer so that the alcohol purified the water,

Why didn't Sam just get the water from the aqueduct?

[Ulrik1312]

Why didn't Sam just get the water from the aqueduct?

May be it is only for the citizens of Braavos or he didn't have the money to acces them?

THe innkeeper try charged them for lumber, so may be the water from the aquaduct is a very rare and precious resource and you have to pay for it.

A very original and intersting theory yolkboy.

[Magic 8 Ball]

In Eastern North America, native palms grow as far north as Oklahoma and the Carolina's - places that share latitude with North Africa.

In Europe, you can find native palms in Southern Ireland - which shares latitude with Canadian wastelands - due to the Gulf Stream

Throw in a Gulf Stream analogue, and a conscientious gardener, and lemon trees make sense in Braavos.

[yolkboy]

I don't really have any knowledge on historical agriculture, so I'm going to rely on the research you did. Does the research you found include whether or not this cultivation outside of ideal, native environment meant mass production and ornamental? One lemon tree in one courtyard in Braavos would be ornamental, but a lemon tree in every courtyard would be more like mass production. It would likely be a very small lemon tree (we have one growing in the backyard where I grew up, actually. I was shocked when I saw my first 'real' lemon tree because those things are big). If NO ONE in the days of old was ever able to move a lemon tree from Palestine to England, then I see your point.

My answer is that i don't want to seem like a horticulture expert or be relied on, i just did a bit of reading. I can't exclude for sure about courtyards. But to me, by outlining the freshwater canal system in Braavos, and by juxtaposing it with a brackish canal system in Braavos, in a place where fresh water has to be imported, and grass doesn't grow (poisoned soil), GRRM is telling us something. Dany is one of the main characters and why did he make her favorite memory, remembered many times, of a tree - in a place renowned for being tree-less?

Plus, why don't we see any lemon trees outside Dorne in Westeros?

[mindchap]

My answer is that i don't want to seem like a horticulture expert or be relied on, i just did a bit of reading. I can't exclude for sure about courtyards. But to me, by outlining the freshwater canal system in Braavos, and by juxtaposing it with a brackish canal system in Braavos, in a place where fresh water has to be imported, and grass doesn't grow (poisoned soil), GRRM is telling us something. Dany is one of the main characters and why did he make her favorite memory, remembered many times, of a tree - in a place renowned for being tree-less?

Plus, why don't we see any lemon trees outside Dorne in Westeros?

I think he's just trying to point out how good the Targ kids had it before they became beggars.

You don't see them anywhere else in Westeros because the winters come and last for so long that Dorne really is the only place where they can be maintained. Trees aren't an every year crop they require more than one season in some cases. I live in the midst of pecan orchards, and these go a few years before they will be ready to produce anything useful, so if the seasons here were to become as erratic as the seasons in asoiaf, it would kill off all the pecan trees. No matter how great the summer is, more than just a few months of winter starts killing the trees.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Does Oklahoma have "no trees" otherwise? Or does it have almost poisoned soil and a canal system thats brackish? Were there banana trees or lemon trees in northern Europe in medieval times?

The message from GRRM is clear, it's repeated often enough... BRAAVOS IS NO PLACE FOR TREES

There is NO GRASS!!!

If it has a Gulf Stream climate, you could bring in the soil a and make a terrace or even a simple mound and plant the lemon tree in it, watering it from the aqueduct if necessary.

Point being, if the climate isn't frigid, you can make whatever you want grow there, with just a little elbow grease. Some fairly rich guy could do this with a lemon tree.

[yolkboy]

I think he's just trying to point out how good the Targ kids had it before they became beggars.

You don't see them anywhere else in Westeros because the winters come and last for so long that Dorne really is the only place where they can be maintained.

So, you're also saying that lemon trees can't grow in Braavos - because of the winters. Braavos is longitude with the fingers, so it will be pretty cold there.

[A Winters Summer]

That is a very good catch! The evidence supporting your claim is also very good. I agree there is too many comments from other characters regarding the infertility and bad water in Bravvos. But that doesn't mean you can't import soil and they must have clean water or noone there could survive. That would be awesome though if it did have some meaning with Dany's story though (with the armchair psycology like you said). Ha I actualy hope that this is true, it would be such a cool psycological twist or reveal or whatever it is.

[mindchap]

So, you're also saying that lemon trees can't grow in Braavos - because of the winters. Braavos is longitude with the fingers, so it will be pretty cold there.

With that kind of wealth it would not be hard to keep a single tree alive, especially if it grows near a home where the wind can easily be blocked, like I said I think it's just a way of showing that they were accustomed to a few of the finer things before they ended up as beggars.

[KOM]

Good OP.

1) I think Braavos is rich enough, that a local lord could grow trees, bushes, etc in a garden in a courtyard or some such. Braavosi are *that rich* compared to other cities.

1.1) Climate might not favor growing citrus trees.

2) Lemon tree might be from her time in Pentos with Illyrio. She may be confusing memories here.

3) There's evidence that Darry took the kids to Braavos to get a pact signed by the Sealord of Braavos.

~ For me, I'm not sure there's much more to it aside from misremembering a harried, on the run youth.

[Magic 8 Ball]

So, you're also saying that lemon trees can't grow in Braavos - because of the winters. Braavos is longitude with the fingers, so it will be pretty cold there.

Not if there is a Gulf Stream. Coastal climates also usually go a long way towards mitigating the cold. We know they are wearing silks into late autumn or winter given the timeline in Braavos being advanced relative to the rest of the story (big mind-warp when you look into this one)

If you are consciously trying to garden a lemon tree, the multi-year summers would also go a long way to making this happen.

[juanml82]

Aren't all the descriptions of Braavos from later books? Martin might have fleshed out the Braavosi details years after writing AGOT. And I could very well believe a writer isn't going to go to a library to check where lemon trees grow while writing details of the first novel of what he's planning as a trilogy.

We do know Viserys used to hit her, but not everything is a conspiracy.

[TheGriffonReborn]

Great thread. I'm not gonna hang my hat on anything in this thread, but you deserve some major points if any of this becomes significant.

[yolkboy]

Aren't all the descriptions of Braavos from later books? Martin might have fleshed out the Braavosi details years after writing AGOT. And I could very well believe a writer isn't going to go to a library to check where lemon trees grow while writing details of the first novel of what he's planning as a trilogy.

Early on, from Dany's first chapter, all we know about Braavos is that there is a house and a lemon tree. This is repeated lots of times. Lemon tree in Braavos, lemon tree in Braavos.. Then when Braavos is introduced, GRRM goes out of his way to explain, in no uncertain terms, the canals are brackish, grass doesn't grow and that there are no trees around. Also having previously described why Dorne is able to grow lemon trees - again canals, but this time freshwater. Why did he describe the canals and lemon trees in Dorne? Does he do the same with any other trees?

You think this is a continuity error? C'mon.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Early on, from Dany's first chapter, all we know about Braavos is that there is a house and a lemon tree. This is repeated lots of times. Lemon tree in Braavos, lemon tree in Braavos.. Then when Braavos is introduced, GRRM goes out of his way to explain, in no uncertain terms, the canals are brackish, grass doesn't grow and that there are no trees around. Also having previously described why Dorne is able to grow lemon trees - again canals, but this time freshwater. Why did he describe the canals and lemon trees in Dorne? Does he do the same with any other trees?

You think this is a continuity error? C'mon.

With multi-year summers, you could probably grow macadamia nuts in Braavos provided you carted in the dirt and gave it fresh water.

[yolkboy]

With multi-year summers, you could probably grow macadamia nuts in Braavos provided you carted in the dirt and gave it fresh water.

Then King's Landing should be full of macadamia nuts, and lemon trees - but it's not. Nor is anywhere else in Westeros apart from Dorne. Sansa cant find any lemons at the Eerie either, so they can't be growing on trees there.