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Did the last dragon and the last direwolf die at the same time?


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#1 Mladen

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:01 PM

At the beginning of the GoT, when Stark party found dead direwolf, Theon noted that there hasn`t been direwolves south of Wall in two hundred years.

On the other hand we know that last dragon, a female, died somewhere between 130 - 157 AL during the reign of Aegon III. Which would make that last dragon died somewhere between 170 and 150 years ago.

So, do you believe this is related? Have the dragons and direwolves extincted at the same time? In wilderness of North, it would be difficult to know where and when was the last direwolf seen, so it is quite possible that it was somewhere around the same time last dragon died. Also, given the fact that in the same year direwolf reappered in Westeros and three dragons were born, does this bind dragons and direwolves? And what possible symbolical meaning could it have, given Jon`s parentage? Is the song of Ice and Fire actually the roar of dragons and direwolves united through one person?

#2 Nictarion

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:04 PM

I assumed there were direwolves north of the wall the whole time. IIRC none of the wildlings are surprised by the presence of Ghost.

#3 yolkboy

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:05 PM

But something must have given birth to the Mother direwolf, and so on. The dragons being reborn from petrified eggs, allowing them to be extinct for a time. Direwolves don't have that luxury.

Unless youre talking of direwolves specifically south of the wall being extinct.?

Edited by yolkboy, 19 May 2013 - 04:06 PM.


#4 Mladen

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:06 PM

I assumed there were direwolves north of the wall the whole time. IIRC none of the wildlings are surprised by the presence of Ghost.


Yes, but I was thinking in Westeros. Are the reappereance of direwolves in Westeros and dragons in general connected in some way?

#5 Lord Lymond Lychester

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:38 PM

At first I was skeptical whether the direwolves were extinct, but according to GRRM the Direwolves were extinct beyond the wall
http://web.archive.o...3/00103009.htm/

Shaw: Is there any reason why you never hear of direwolves north of the Wall?
Martin: They're an extinct animal in that part. They're a very large and dangerous predator, and people have probably hunted them out.


I never really even thought of their re-occurrence as being related though, but since he claims their extinction as true, there has to be some relation

So, do you believe this is related? Have the dragons and direwolves extincted at the same time? In wilderness of North, it would be difficult to know where and when was the last direwolf seen, so it is quite possible that it was somewhere around the same time last dragon died. Also, given the fact that in the same year direwolf reappered in Westeros and three dragons were born, does this bind dragons and direwolves? And what possible symbolical meaning could it have, given Jon`s parentage? Is the song of Ice and Fire actually the roar of dragons and direwolves united through one person?


Depending on where Rheagar got the notion of his "song of ice and fire" theory or what it means, this could very well be the reason he chose Lyanna Stark as the queen of love and beauty

And part of me wants to say bloodraven had something to do with the mother direwolf below the wall, because it's a lot easier than defusing the chicken vs egg argument, and it ties him to Bran from early on.

Regardless this is very intriguing

#6 Nictarion

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:45 PM

Yes, but I was thinking in Westeros. Are the reappereance of direwolves in Westeros and dragons in general connected in some way?

I don't think so, but its an interesting thought.

#7 Mladen

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:47 PM

At first I was skeptical whether the direwolves were extinct, but according to GRRM the Direwolves were extinct beyond the wall
http://web.archive.o...3/00103009.htm/


I never really even thought of their re-occurrence as being related though, but since he claims their extinction as true, there has to be some relation


Wow, I thought there still is some direwolves in the north from the Wall, but, that`s even more interesting. Thank you for that quote.

#8 Lord Bresteil of the North

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:23 PM

Did Bloodraven not say that the Direwolves time to die has not come yet?

#9 Lord Lymond Lychester

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:25 PM

Wow, I thought there still is some direwolves in the north from the Wall, but, that`s even more interesting. Thank you for that quote.


No problem at all

#10 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:36 PM

I actually wondered this in another thread a while back. I was looking more at the Alysanne/Jaehaerys and, possibly, Barth angle. Later in the thread we wondered about exactly how connected direwolves and dragons are. I think yes, it's no coincidence that the direwolves and dragons disappear and appear at around the same time.

#11 Faint

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:37 PM

I imagine they disappeared around the same time. Magical creatures and all that. It is no coincidence that they reappeared around the same time as well.

#12 Nictarion

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:11 PM

I imagine they disappeared around the same time. Magical creatures and all that. It is no coincidence that they reappeared around the same time as well.

Direwolves aren't really magical creatures though. They existed in our planets history as well. GRRM just made them bigger than the real ones.

#13 Faint

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:22 PM

Direwolves aren't really magical creatures though. They existed in our planets history as well. GRRM just made them bigger than the real ones.


Not magical? Did the direwolves on earth also have the remarkable ability to sniff out friends from enemies? Come now, those are no ordinary wolves.

#14 mindchap

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:53 PM

But direwolves have never been extinct. They are still roaming around at least four of them anyway, and Leaf tells Bran "The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

#15 Tagganaro

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:59 PM

Benjen says there are direwolves North of the Wall in AGOT to Jon during the feast: "There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings."

Was that just another one of GRRM's awful editing mistakes? Has he retconned that out? Or was Benjen just mistaken in the first place?

I'm not really sure. You'd think that if Benjen was telling the truth somebody, anybody, would have come across another direwolf North of the Wall. But it seems like the only dire wolves are the Stark ones. Interesting...I'd like to get GRRM's take on that whole episode.

#16 Night's Ranger

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:13 PM

didnt Leaf tell Bran that direwolfs will live longest of them all?

#17 Mladen

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

I actually wondered this in another thread a while back. I was looking more at the Alysanne/Jaehaerys and, possibly, Barth angle. Later in the thread we wondered about exactly how connected direwolves and dragons are. I think yes, it's no coincidence that the direwolves and dragons disappear and appear at around the same time.


I didn`t knowabout this thread of yours, Dr Pepper. Well, let we just say, great minds think alike. I am also wondering whether the fact that union of the Starks and Targaryens, also the union of the blood of the First Men and Valyrians could triggered these events. Perhaps with Jon`s birth, things did stirred in the world of ASOIAF.


Direwolves aren't really magical creatures though. They existed in our planets history as well. GRRM just made them bigger than the real ones.


No, GRRM`s direwolves are the same size as normal dire wolves, and both of them are much larger than common grey wolf.


Benjen says there are direwolves North of the Wall in AGOT to Jon during the feast: "There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings."


Benjen here could be wrong. Perhaps wolf`s howl and direwolf`s howl can`t be distincted. Remember that Ghost of High Heart heard in her dream wolf`s howling in the rain, and basically that was Grey wind in the night of RW. So, perhaps Benjen heard only wolves.

#18 Sevumar

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:25 PM

If they were completely extinct north of the Wall, then we wouldn't have had direwolf pups for the Stark children at the beginning of the book. There's also something that Leaf says in Dance suggesting that the direwolves remained alive and in hiding:

"The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the
mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In
the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”


If the direwolves will outlast the rest of the magical species/large game of Westeros, then they must have continued existing after men thought them gone.

#19 Yukle

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:32 PM

Direwolves aren't really magical creatures though. They existed in our planets history as well. GRRM just made them bigger than the real ones.


That's true but the way that the direwolves bond with children and allow them to share minds is perhaps a bit more magical. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Also, perhaps the direwolves are a blend of real and magical; they're certainly larger and they seem even more intelligent than the real world counterparts.

ETA: It seems that all magic is returning at the same time. The followers of the Red God and the pyromancers noted that their magic is stronger than normal. The Others have returned with the dragons so maybe all magic is tied.

Edited by Yukle, 19 May 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#20 mindchap

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

I didn`t knowabout this thread of yours, Dr Pepper. Well, let we just say, great minds think alike. I am also wondering whether the fact that union of the Starks and Targaryens, also the union of the blood of the First Men and Valyrians could triggered these events. Perhaps with Jon`s birth, things did stirred in the world of ASOIAF.


But Jon wasn't the first, Bloodraven was.