The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Distressed Baratheon Sigil T-Shirt
Game of Thrones Distressed Baratheon Sigil T-Shirt
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

R + L = J v 50


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
456 replies to this topic

#1 Stubby

Stubby

    The night is dark and full of Social Justice Warriors

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,277 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:15 AM

Oops. Let that last one carry on a bit...

#2 Harold II

Harold II

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 116 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:17 AM

woot 50!

#3 Winds of Winter blow cold

Winds of Winter blow cold

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,105 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:18 AM

I started one too. you want to make it disappear?
Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.


But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)


The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)


"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)


R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)


R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

R+L=J v. 48 (thread forty-eight)

R+L=J v.49 (thread forty-nine)

Edited by Winds of Winter blow cold, 24 May 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#4 Jon Icefyre

Jon Icefyre

    Bowed and bent only while the dragon remains unwoken

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,697 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:54 AM

Thank god! And for new members or regular members who are just new to this specific thread, please read the long post above by Winds of Winter blow cold before you start bombarding us with reasons why you think R+L=J isn't true that have already been argued against a billion times over on these specific R+L=J threads at this point.

#5 Ygrain

Ygrain

    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,358 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:08 AM

Yeah, RIP, v. 49, and do not rise again.

So, Olenna got her own thread, could we perhaps finally get to the complementing information from the Dany PoVs?

We have there:

- the contrary version of events (Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, plus Jorah's assessment that by protecting the Lhazarene women from rape, Dany is like Rhaegar)
- confirmation that Rhaegar loved Lyanna (died with her name on his lips, plus later Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it")
- the possibility of polygamy (from Jorah)
- the blue flower on the Wall and dragon must have three heads
- assumptions that Lyanna was taken on swordpoint

That's just from top of my head, what did I miss?

#6 Qhorin Fivehands

Qhorin Fivehands

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:19 AM

What if Jons mum is just Wylla.

#7 Dr. Pepper

Dr. Pepper

    ice queen

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,235 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:22 AM

What if Jons mum is just Wylla.

Why would Ned go to his grave keeping that a secret?

#8 Ser Creighton

Ser Creighton

    90's me, told you I was a Baratheon.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,688 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:31 AM

Oh no, version 49 is over, gosh darn it.

#9 Qhorin Fivehands

Qhorin Fivehands

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:17 AM

Why would Ned go to his grave keeping that a secret?

He just didn't get the chance to tell Jon perhaps? Don't get me wrong, I'm a full blown supporter of R+L=J, I just think it's also worth thinking about the other possibilities.

#10 Ribupr

Ribupr

    Landed Knight

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 419 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:30 AM

Good lord, 50? Haha, it makes me laugh that there are more words in these 50 threads about one topic, than there are actual words in the whole asoiaf series.

Gotta love fans. lol.

#11 Dr. Pepper

Dr. Pepper

    ice queen

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,235 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:31 AM

He just didn't get the chance to tell Jon perhaps? Don't get me wrong, I'm a full blown supporter of R+L=J, I just think it's also worth thinking about the other possibilities.

He had nearly 15 years to tell Jon, not to mention Cat. There's absolutely no reason to keep that secret unless the secret is so dangerous that it must be kept. "Some lies are worth telling."

I agree that it's worth thinking about other possibilities but other possibilities must pass, what I consider, the primary litmus test before further consideration should be given - Why would X woman be cause to keep it so secret from everyone?

Good lord, 50? Haha, it makes me laugh that there are more words in these 50 threads about one topic, than there are actual words in the whole asoiaf series.

Gotta love fans. lol.

Yes, it's a constantly renewing population.

#12 dragontamer

dragontamer

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 442 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:54 AM

corbon v.49 #1170 :
Of course. When Rhaegar gave them an order, Jon was not even born, let alone King. So Rhaegar couldn't give them an order to guard their King at ToJ.
He could give them an order to guard his wife and unborn child. Which isn't dictated to by their vows.

The disagreement here is that I believe that even if Lyanna had given birth to a girl they would still have stayed there under Rhaegar’s order and protect her and her child.

I think I’ve said enough especially since I don’t think that it actually matters since Jon imo isn’t Rhaegar’s son, so the 3 KG business at the ToJ is still unclear to me

Edited by dragontamer, 22 May 2013 - 04:25 AM.


#13 corbon

corbon

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,483 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:19 AM


corbon v.49 #1170 :
Of course. When Rhaegar gave them an order, Jon was not even born, let alone King. So Rhaegar couldn't give them an order to guard their King at ToJ.
He could give them an order to guard his wife and unborn child. Which isn't dictated to by their vows.



The disagreement here is that I believe that even if Lyanna had given birth to a girl they would still have stayed there under Rhaegar’s order and protect her and her child.

I think I’ve said enough especially since I don’t think that it actually matters since Jon imo isn’t Rhaegar’s son, so the 3 KG business at the ToJ is still unclear to me


What basis do you have for claiming that an order by a non-king member of the Royal Family who is dead trumps the first duty of the KG which is to protect their living, unprotected, King, Viserys (in the situation where Jon is a girl).
So much so that they don't even try to do both, but ignore their primary duty entirely.

No basis at all.

Not that its relevant. Jon was born a boy.

#14 finger

finger

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,129 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:20 AM

I've seen there are misunderstandings about the TOJ, so I'd like to sum up the situation, letting aside more or less cryptic conversations.

It starts with R+L fleeing to the ToJ together with some KG. It seems they're hiding, so we can assume their families don't aprove. R's still the crown prince, so it's not strange to have some KG by him but, given this row with the family, we can doubt if their fealthy is more personal, or even the family feud is more stretched. This is rather a side issue any how.

When R went to war, L was pregnant, and we can think they knew. R don't tell them to go to KL or DS, but it seems he orders the KG to stay there keeping L+child.

R died, and they stayed at ToJ. The mistery reason that prevents them from going to KL or DS seems to remain. We can think of complications in the carry, but it seems there were old problems as well.

Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to DS, and kept Elia as a hostage. He kept Jaime with him. He counted with Lannister's help but he didn't trust anyone. We may doubt if he trusted those KG at ToJ. Btw, he went nuts. Those in ToJ still don't go to DS

Tywin betrayed, and shit rained on KL. Everything changes dramatically. Targs are in disarray. In fact, the only Targs alive are Viserys and Rhaella. L is about chilbirth, so she can't move (no obstetric expert, yet).

ONLY in this situation, it makes sense for those at ToJ to stay together and keep heirs separated. Unfortunately, we can't know their plans, unless Ned knew and told HR, or Ashara shows up. We can guess they planned to move to the free cities as soon as they could move with Lyanna. It'd make sense, but we don't really know.

I'd make clear that there are common bastards, recognized bastards and legalized bastard.I take away that a recognized bastard can inherit in absence of legal descendants. So, Jon was very important for the Targs anyhow, and it meant a great danger for him in case Robert would catch him.

Edited by finger, 22 May 2013 - 04:22 AM.


#15 TheCrannogDweller

TheCrannogDweller

    Missy's bastard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,582 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

I don't really participate in this thread, but I thought I'd share something I found with you while rereading Feast. It might've been discovered long ago, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, so here it goes.

In Braavos, Maester Aemon is talking to Sam about dragons:

I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow…


The red is a reference to the comet, but it might also allude to a "red dragon", and "snow" is mentioned right next to it.

Edited by TheCrannogDweller, 22 May 2013 - 04:29 AM.


#16 dragontamer

dragontamer

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 442 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:43 AM

What basis do you have for claiming that an order by a non-king member of the Royal Family who is dead trumps the first duty of the KG which is to protect their living, unprotected, King, Viserys (in the situation where Jon is a girl).
So much so that they don't even try to do both, but ignore their primary duty entirely.

No basis at all.

Not that its relevant. Jon was born a boy.


No basis at all according to the KG "textbook". I simply beleive that this is what they were doing.

Perhaps I should start from another point to make myself clear. For reasons I have explained in the past I don’t believe that Jon is Rhaegar’s child. Based on that, the KG’s presence at the ToJ, imo, isn’t related to Jon or Lyanna, or at least not strictly and solely related to them. Therefore, I’m more willing to accept a theory that places the true Aegon in the Tower, which would explain the fight between the KGs and Eddard and Eddard’s journey to Starfall much better, or a theory that suggests that they simply stayed there to honor the last order from their dead prince and last as a matter of fact, since the dynasty’s rule had come to an end.
One more thing, if the Gold cloaks were enough for the king and the rest loyal family I am sure the army on Dragonstone would be enough for Viserys and Rhaella, plus the sea between them and Robert.

Edited by dragontamer, 22 May 2013 - 04:45 AM.


#17 FrozenFire3

FrozenFire3

    Kai su, teknon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:49 AM

I don't really participate in this thread, but I thought I'd share something I found with you while rereading Feast. It might've been discovered long ago, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, so here it goes.

In Braavos, Maester Aemon is talking to Sam about dragons:



The red is a reference to the comet, but it might also allude to a "red dragon", and "snow" is mentioned right next to it.


Welcome on board /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
Very interesting catch.
It could also relate to our old discussion about Rhaegar's red rubies (= life force) casting their shadows (= blood legacy) on the...Snow.

#18 Lady Gwynhyfvar

Lady Gwynhyfvar

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,538 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:08 AM

Good morning Golden 50! What a nice change to see this fresh, slender young thread here instead of the bloated and aged v49 /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Thank god! And for new members or regular members who are just new to this specific thread, please read the long post above by Winds of Winter blow cold before you start bombarding us with reasons why you think R+L=J isn't true that have already been argued against a billion times over on these specific R+L=J threads at this point.


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> Should there be an entrance exam? A solemn oath to never talk about the KG for an entire week and about 30 pages ever again? I actually saw a post on SQ yesterday that was a completely basic and reasonable RLJ question but the poster was afraid to put it here because this thread seemed to only be about the KG at the ToJ. Lol.

Good lord, 50? Haha, it makes me laugh that there are more words in these 50 threads about one topic, than there are actual words in the whole asoiaf series.

Gotta love fans. lol.


I'd wager more words about the KG alone than all of GRRM's works combined

I don't really participate in this thread, but I thought I'd share something I found with you while rereading Feast. It might've been discovered long ago, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, so here it goes.

In Braavos, Maester Aemon is talking to Sam about dragons:



The red is a reference to the comet, but it might also allude to a "red dragon", and "snow" is mentioned right next to it.


This is very nice! The kind of stuff we ought to spend our time on. The red dragon ties into something I think about a lot, the connection of ASoIaF to Welsh legend. Thanks for pointing it out.

Yeah, RIP, v. 49, and do not rise again.

So, Olenna got her own thread, could we perhaps finally get to the complementing information from the Dany PoVs?

We have there:

- the contrary version of events (Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, plus Jorah's assessment that by protecting the Lhazarene women from rape, Dany is like Rhaegar)
- confirmation that Rhaegar loved Lyanna (died with her name on his lips, plus later Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it")
- the possibility of polygamy (from Jorah)
- the blue flower on the Wall and dragon must have three heads
- assumptions that Lyanna was taken on swordpoint

That's just from top of my head, what did I miss?


Let's hope it's not a case of "what is dead may never die"

The interesting thing about these Dany references is that the last one seems to contradict all of the others, until you look a bit closer. I always found it out of place, since most of the references from Dany's POV are so positive, that there would be this one story which seemed to corroborate Robert's version of events. Upon consideration though, it doesn't necessarily mean Lyanna was taken unwillingly- only that someone was unwilling to let her go. It may not be significant, just my two cents for the moment. I'll give this some more thought though and see if I can dig up any others.


eta- Don't mean to impugn those who engaged in the lengthy KG discussion. My hat is off to Ygrain and Mtn Lion especially for their patience (mostly /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />) and fortitude (extreme)

Edited by Lady Gwynhyfvar, 22 May 2013 - 05:19 AM.


#19 FrozenFire3

FrozenFire3

    Kai su, teknon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:18 AM

The interesting thing about these Dany references is that the last one seems to contradict all of the others, until you look a bit closer. I always found it out of place, since most of the references from Dany's POV are so positive, that there would be this one story which seemed to corroborate Robert's version of events. Upon consideration though, it doesn't necessarily mean Lyanna was taken unwillingly- only that someone was unwilling to let her go. It may not be significant, just my two cents for the moment. I'll give this some more thought though and see if I can dig up any others.


Indeed /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a well devised act either. Rhaegar taking the full blame to keep Lyanna's honour 'unbersmirched'.

#20 corbon

corbon

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,483 posts

Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

I've seen there are misunderstandings about the TOJ, so I'd like to sum up the situation, letting aside more or less cryptic conversations.


A worthy plan.

It starts with R+L fleeing to the ToJ together with some KG. It seems they're hiding, so we can assume their families don't aprove. R's still the crown prince, so it's not strange to have some KG by him but, given this row with the family, we can doubt if their fealthy is more personal, or even the family feud is more stretched. This is rather a side issue any how.

When R went to war, L was pregnant, and we can think they knew. R don't tell them to go to KL or DS, but it seems he orders the KG to stay there keeping L+child.

R died, and they stayed at ToJ. The mistery reason that prevents them from going to KL or DS seems to remain. We can think of complications in the carry, but it seems there were old problems as well.


There is no reason for them to change their plans at this stage. The old problem of family approval, not to mention Aerys not being trustworthy with Lyanna's safety, remain. And there is no chance the'd heard the news so quickly either

Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to DS, and kept Elia as a hostage. He kept Jaime with him. He counted with Lannister's help but he didn't trust anyone. We may doubt if he trusted those KG at ToJ. Btw, he went nuts. Those in ToJ still don't go to DS


Those at ToJ have no chance of knowing at this stage, so still no reason to go.
Absent being on the raven network (which I think is in universal agreement) it should take longer for them to get the news that the whole Trident-> sack time period.

Tywin betrayed, and shit rained on KL. Everything changes dramatically. Targs are in disarray. In fact, the only Targs alive are Viserys and Rhaella. L is about chilbirth, so she can't move (no obstetric expert, yet).


And they still don't know so have no reason to move.

ONLY in this situation, it makes sense for those at ToJ to stay together and keep heirs separated. Unfortunately, we can't know their plans, unless Ned knew and told HR, or Ashara shows up. We can guess they planned to move to the free cities as soon as they could move with Lyanna. It'd make sense, but we don't really know.


The most likely scenario is that they learn of all the events, Trident, Viserys fleeing and Sack together. Who is going to inform them earlier?
Yet after the sack, the raven network will be busy proclaiming Robert the new King, the rebellion over and the deaths of the Targaryens. Then anyone who knows their location (someone from Starfall?) and is on the Raven network can send them the news of the changed circumstances.
Given that first news disseminates from KL out, and then a message is sent, by horse at fastest, they are unlikely to hear within 2-3 weeks of the sack, meaning they've probably only got the news a week or two at most before Ned arrives. And around the same time Jon is born.

Indeed /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a well devised act either. Rhaegar taking the full blame to keep Lyanna's honour 'unbersmirched'.

I wouldn't preclude the possibility its entirely based on a 'fixed that for you" version of Roberts official history, not the actual events - which neither Dany nor anyone she's had contact with have much chance of knowing.