R + L = J v 50

[Jon Icefyre]

Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, died during the Sack of King's Landing. Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis is alive.

Varys lied by omission, as he always does. He told Kevan Aegon was back, but he deliberately avoided the names or Rhaegar or the Targaryens in general. Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis (and the Blackfyre cause) can be back too, not only Aegon son of Rhaegar... and Varys is deliberately blurring the lines.

:agree: Well said

[finger]

A minute of pause.

Varys had told that the baby murdered in KL was not Aegon, but a substitute. The real Aegon had been tucked away.

Being Varys, we can expect he lied. I don't think he invented the whole story, but he could have ommitted that the baby was so well tucked away that he had lost his trail.

Otoh, should N,A have plotted together, we must think they're acting in similar ways. If so, Ashara's Targ must be as hidden as Jon is, not quite leading a rebellion. They could show up at any moment, and it wouldn't be the first surprise we receive while rading the series.

I've said repeatedly that I like to share my thoughts ir order to build a storyline. This is just the game we agreed to play when we started reading and commenting the series. I've advanced some possibilities and some of them have been discarded after discussion. For instance, Ashara being septa Lemore. I'm seing it less and less feasible. Some others have been reinforced, like the southron ambitions. That's what we all do, linking pieces of story that sometimes don't fit.

I offer you a couple of details to think about, from quotes in the last pages.

FAegon. Jon Connington was R's staunchest friend. How could he be persuaded to mount a mummer's farce on his friend's memory?

Ashara. Should she had failed her suicide, why should she hide or flee?

Sorry if it's not good to take your theories ahead. But if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.

[Jon Icefyre]

A minute of pause.

Varys had told that the baby murdered in KL was not Aegon, but a substitute. The real Aegon had been tucked away.

Being Varys, we can expect he lied. I don't think he invented the whole story, but he could have ommitted that the baby was so well tucked away that he had lost his trail.

Otoh, should N,A have plotted together, we must think they're acting in similar ways. If so, Ashara's Targ must be as hidden as Jon is, not quite leading a rebellion. They could show up at any moment, and it wouldn't be the first surprise we receive while rading the series.

I've said repeatedly that I like to share my thoughts ir order to build a storyline. This is just the game we agreed to play when we started reading and commenting the series. I've advanced some possibilities and some of them have been discarded after discussion. For instance, Ashara being septa Lemore. I'm seing it less and less feasible. Some others have been reinforced, like the southron ambitions. That's what we all do, linking pieces of story that sometimes don't fit.

I offer you a couple of details to think about, from quotes in the last pages.

FAegon. Jon Connington was R's staunchest friend. How could he be persuaded to mount a mummer's farce on his friend's memory?

Ashara. Should she had failed her suicide, why should she hide or flee?

Sorry if it's not good to take your theories ahead. But if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.

Ya and Jon Connington notes the fact that GC's demeanor during that announcement suggested that the GC already knew the perceived truth about Young Griff before JC actually revealed him to the GC which according to JonC was not part of the plan at all. And from my earlier quote that lllyrio gives Tyrion about how he got the GC to come to his side, it's very well possible if not likely that Varys or lllyrio had already told the GC Young Griff's true identity as a Blackfyre prior to them meeting up with JC and that's how they truly got the GC to switch over to their side. Don't forget Viserys once feasted the Golden Company and asked them to fight for him and House Targaryen and they literally laughed in his face and labelled him the beggar king, yet they bent the knee so easily for Young Griff. I thinks it's very likely that Jon Connington along with the small pack that follows him and young Griff are completely blind to the fact that Young Griff is a Blackfyre and actually think he's Aegon, while Varys, lllryio, and a select few high commanding officers of the GC know the real truth. JC is simply a pawn being manipulated by Varys to help sit Young Griff on the Iron Throne. Now will YG's Blackfyre identity ever be revealed to the readers if it is indeed true? Yes, I think so, but if Varys succeeds in seating YG on the Iron Throne will they ever reveal his true identity to the Westeros public? Probably not.

I'm sure they would very much like to announce to the world that YG is a Blackfyre, but the simple fact is Westeros along with Dany will only accept YG as king if he is percieved/believed to be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and therefore the true heir and king of Westeros. It's similar to what the Lannisters have done with Joffrey and Tommen only Varys hopes to be much better at hiding it than the Lannisters are lol. Westeros would hail YG as a Targ, but Varys would know the truth which is that the Blackfyres finally succeeded in placing one of their own on the throne. Again of course they would like to wave Blackfyre banners around and make it known to the public who YG truly is and who knows, maybe they would at some point, but the sneakier false identity plan just seems to be the safest and surest route to sit Young Griff on the Iron throne. Again this is exactly what Varys means in his power speech, I repeat:

"Power resides where men believe it resides."

Now the bigger question is will Dany see the truth for what it really is and identify Young Griff as the fake, or will she falsely perceive Jon Snow as the pretender if it comes to that?

As I said in the quote above Varys is lying to JC as well, JC truly thinks YG is Aegon and has no idea that he's actually a Blackfyre. JC didn't meet YG for the first time until the boy was 5 years old, so JC has no way of truly knowing where YG came from. It's actually quite simple Varys is lying to almost everyone except a select few that are also in on the scheme......

[finger]

As I said in the quote above Varys is lying to JC as well, JC truly thinks YG is Aegon and has no idea that he's actually a Blackfyre. It's actually quite simple Varys is lying to almost everyone except a select few that are also in on the scheme......

You see. This is an argument that answers an apparent flaw in a theory.

Otoh, should he be the real Aegon, he'd be the Targ heir, before Viserys and Danaerys. But Illyrio was supporting theese, and keeping him hidden.

You might think he was using them as a decoy, so that Aegon is not given away until Robert dies, or he comes of age. I don't know if it works.

I'm ever more convinced he's a fake, and he has nothing to do with Ashara.

[Maxpey]

That's Ok. Only that I haven't said anything of a love affair or a child. First you change my words and then you are upset for something I haven't said, nor even thought.

By N+A I mean there was a political marriage being prepared, but went sour.

Brandon proposed it at ToH: He danced with Ashara, told her to dance with Ned and Ashara looked to Stark.

They had an approach for sure and they didn't seem to be unpleased with the arrangement.

People in WF and SF should have heard about it, it was a business between houses, not just the couple. It explains the rumours in WF about A being Jon's mother or some of Ned Dayne's tales.

And I guess Aerys saw it coming and did something to prevent the wedding. But this needs more elaboration.

I also have accepted that Ned and Ashara probably didn't have a child. As I have stated before, I like the idea that they had a brief affair, fling, what have you. It adds more dimension to Ned's character and makes his story more poignant.

[Maxpey]

No by all means keep talking about it, I mean in all honesty part of the R+L=J threads are also seeing alternative theories like N+A=J. Just don't be surprised when you get about ten R+L=J supporters in a row that simultaneously tear your alt arguments apart...... :smug:

Ha. I do seem to be a bit of a masochist. :drool:

I was actually talking about addressing issues of whether Ned and Ashara had an affair, not that N + A = J. Discussing this question on this thread seems to lead to a misunderstanding about arguments I am making. That's why I think it should probably have its own thread.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I would like to know what caused there to be a fight at the TOJ. I get that the KG were there to protect Lyanna, but from her brother? Really? You'ld think he could have showed up and there had been some discussion. I have a hard time believing they were worried about Ned hurting his sister or her child. Were the KG really that paranoid? I buy the whole R+L=J theory, but that is one piece of the story that seems odd to me.

These questions deserve a good answer, which was delivered quite eloquently by many posters over most of the latter half of v.49 To give the simplest answer: most of us think the presence of the Kingsguard indicates the presence of the KING. As for why they would protect that King from Ned Stark, don't forget that he was the chief lieutenant of a man who had apparently just sanctioned the brutal murders of two Targaryen children in King's Landing.

Hope that helps!

[The guy from the Vale]

You see. This is an argument that answers an apparent flaw in a theory.

Otoh, should he be the real Aegon, he'd be the Targ heir, before Viserys and Danaerys. But Illyrio was supporting theese, and keeping him hidden.

You might think he was using them as a decoy, so that Aegon is not given away until Robert dies, or he comes of age. I don't know if it works.

I'm ever more convinced he's a fake, and he has nothing to do with Ashara.

You know... noone was looking for Aegon, as he was dead., or at the very least thought to be dead. Viserys and Dany might have been decoys, but I think there's another angle there.

If Varys and Illyrio were really Targ sympathizers (and why should Illyrio care?), they would have made sure Dany and Viserys got a decent education, etc. They did arrange that for Aegon, and the chances of something happening to him (Greyscale, dying in a pirate attack, drowning, etc.) were small but still considerable enough that making sure his heirs had at least some knowledge of Westeros would have been crucial. Instead they were sold to the Dothraki, where Illyrio expected them both to die. What does that tell you about their devotion to the Targaryens?

[FrozenFire3]

Well, it's usually easy enough to tell if a baby is fair or dark pretty quickly. Certainly by the time they were en route to Winterfell Jon would have been clearly a dark haired, dark eyed baby. Also, some have suggested that Ned purposely kept the Ashara rumor in the wings just in case Jon turned out to have violet eyes.

As for sending the boy away to Greywater Watch... I'm pretty sure at least part of the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned on her deathbed was to raise Jon as his own son. I don't see Ned violating that.

:agree: I also believe that Ned pretending to be Jon's father is definitely the safest solution. It is clearly spelled by TricksterFinger himself with the following impossible-not-to-be-relevant words:

It is rude to pry into the origins of a man's natural children

<snip>

But Lyanna was indeed `she-wolf`, as young Lady of the House, Lyanna was everything what true alpha female should be. Lethal but emotional, in Lyanna we find wonderful sublimation of great strength which she demonstrated as KoTL, and deep emotions when she cried during Rhaegar`s singing. As female without pups, she did her duties in the pack diligently, but once she gave birth, her `pup` became her obsession. We know how she pleaded and begged Ned.

<snip>

Very insightful mitho-ethological analysys. Food for thoughts.

About the deep emotions stirred by Rhaegar's singing, I'll go tangentially again with Littlefinger's line:

A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands ;)

Btw it's peculiar how some elucidations about the whole R+L=J debate are indirectly given to us by the Prince of Chaos himself...

I would like to know what caused there to be a fight at the TOJ. I get that the KG were there to protect Lyanna, but from her brother? Really? You'ld think he could have showed up and there had been some discussion. I have a hard time believing they were worried about Ned hurting his sister or her child. Were the KG really that paranoid? I buy the whole R+L=J theory, but that is one piece of the story that seems odd to me.

Allow me to quote two old posts of mine:

"...the key here is secrecy. The KG couldn't let anyone know, not even Jon's honourable uncle. The less people knew about the infant heir the more likely he was going to survive. It's the very same concern that compelled Ned to hide the truth even from his wife, breaking her trust and tormenting his own conscience till the end..."

"...Moreover, they couldn't entrust the safety of Jon to Ned's discretion. And the discretion of hypothetical confidant(s), however trusted (Cat anyone?). Let's not forget it took Ned's selfless sacrifice and a promise on a deathbed to protect Jon's identity."

:ninja: 'd by Lady Gwynhyfvar

[Maxpey]

You know... noone was looking for Aegon, as he was dead., or at the very least thought to be dead. Viserys and Dany might have been decoys, but I think there's another angle there.

If Varys and Illyrio were really Targ sympathizers (and why should Illyrio care?), they would have made sure Dany and Viserys got a decent education, etc. They did arrange that for Aegon, and the chances of something happening to him (Greyscale, dying in a pirate attack, drowning, etc.) were small but still considerable enough that making sure his heirs had at least some knowledge of Westeros would have been crucial. Instead they were sold to the Dothraki, where Illyrio expected them both to die. What does that tell you about their devotion to the Targaryens?

I think the answer could be that they were not "Targ" sympathizers, per se. Rather, Varys, the ultimate opportunist, saw an opportunity to raise the "ideal ruler" in Aegon. He recruited Illyrio, his longtime friend, to assist him. Illyrio, already wealthy beyond his wildest dreams, went along out of his loyalty to Varys. Also, Illyrio may have enjoyed just being part of the "Game of Thrones"; some people find this stimulating. Thus, their loyalty was to Aegon and not Targs in general. This is why they would use Dany and Viserys. Please understand I am not saying this is what happened. It's just an alternate theory of Varys' and Illyrio's motivations.

[Lady Nastja]

Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, died during the Sack of King's Landing. Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis is alive.

Varys lied by omission, as he always does. He told Kevan Aegon was back, but he deliberately avoided the names or Rhaegar or the Targaryens in general. Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis (and the Blackfyre cause) can be back too, not only Aegon son of Rhaegar... and Varys is deliberately blurring the lines.

:agree: Wow, very well said.

[MtnLion]

I would like to know what caused there to be a fight at the TOJ. I get that the KG were there to protect Lyanna, but from her brother? Really? You'ld think he could have showed up and there had been some discussion. I have a hard time believing they were worried about Ned hurting his sister or her child. Were the KG really that paranoid? I buy the whole R+L=J theory, but that is one piece of the story that seems odd to me.

Here is something I posted back on thread 49:

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle if these three had been allowed to enter into it.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for the Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend the king. This lends some credance to the curse of Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targeyen dynasty.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which really adds some strength to Lyanna was never dishonored argument.

[JonNonRegis]

But I think it's a good point: what if Jon had taken after Rhaegar?

This is a good point.

A baby's appearance near birth is no predictor of its childhood or adulthood appearance. If you assume R+L=J, then Ned was taking a horrific risk raising a baby who might, in time, turn out to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes.

My own hair and eyes changed color in this way. There are photos taken from when I was three in which I am blonde with blue eyes. Not the case by eight years old.

Jon would have been well established at Winterfell as Ned's bastard, and then to look like a Targaryen... well. The word would spread in very short order. Robert, among others, would not have thought highly of this development. Steps would have been taken. Ned would be exposed as a liar, his "honor" in utter shambles.

It's not clear to me how Ned or Lyanna could possibly have known this wouldn't happen.

[JonNonRegis]

Edit issues.

[lojzelote]

This is a good point.

A baby's appearance near birth is no predictor of its childhood or adulthood appearance. If you assume R+L=J, then Ned was taking a horrific risk raising a baby who might, in time, turn out to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes.

My own hair and eyes changed color in this way. There are photos taken from when I was three in which I am blonde with blue eyes. Not the case by eight years old.

Jon would have been well established at Winterfell as Ned's bastard, and then to look like a Targaryen... well. The word would spread in very short order. Robert, among others, would not have thought highly of this development. Steps would have been taken. Ned would be exposed as a liar, his "honor" in utter shambles.

It's not clear to me how Ned or Lyanna could possibly have known this wouldn't happen.

Ned would have given him to Howland Reed and Jon would grow up in the Neck. When a visit would came, they would hide him under the table. He would be told he's a son of a Lyseni whore and his father, Lord Stark, is ashamed of his dishonor (that's why he completely hid him from the world), but at the same time cares for him (which is why he hasn't left with his mother).

Btw, the change of a child's coloring from dark to fair is rare, the opposite you've experienced is much more common.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree: I also believe that Ned pretending to be Jon's father is definitely the safest solution. It is clearly spelled by TricksterFinger himself with the following impossible-not-to-be-relevant words:

It is rude to pry into the origins of a man's natural children

Very insightful mitho-ethological analysys. Food for thoughts.

About the deep emotions stirred by Rhaegar's singing, I'll go tangentially again with Littlefinger's line:

A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands ;)

Btw it's peculiar how some elucidations about the whole R+L=J debate are indirectly given to us by the Prince of Chaos himself...

Allow me to quote two old posts of mine:

"...the key here is secrecy. The KG couldn't let anyone know, not even Jon's honourable uncle. The less people knew about the infant heir the more likely he was going to survive. It's the very same concern that compelled Ned to hide the truth even from his wife, breaking her trust and tormenting his own conscience till the end..."

"...Moreover, they couldn't entrust the safety of Jon to Ned's discretion. And the discretion of hypothetical confidant(s), however trusted (Cat anyone?). Let's not forget it took Ned's selfless sacrifice and a promise on a deathbed to protect Jon's identity."

:ninja: 'd by Lady Gwynhyfvar

Yes, it's really a neat thread, and if your an nature/animal lover like myself, the way that Martin weaves those themes into his work is really interesting.

As you know, I defend Lyanna, and to some extent even Brandon, not because I think they're innocent or blameless, (not too many of those in this story except the smallfolk), but I dislike the oversimplification of themes like the "wolfs blood" as a given negative. While obviously it has it's consequences if not channeled correctly, having the "wolfs blood" does not necessarily have to be a negative, though all too often those who dislike the Starks use that imagry to indict them as there are just as many significant consequences to having "dragons blood."

The next project will be on lions, (and being the "servant" to two very large felines who think they're lions), :unsure: should be interesting, especially when you compare the Lannisters "scorched earth" policy in destroying anyone and any family that is an enemy is very similar imagry to the lion that goes into to take over a Pride, destroying all the cubs and DNA of the previous head of the Pride.

And totally agree on LF. It's both intriguing and frustrating. :bang:

[Alia of the knife]

On the Blackfyres, Varys and the "big reveal," I think with their saga, the devil is indeed in the details.

Just down to the name origins, names like Jahaerys, Aerys, Viserys, etc., sounds eerily similar to Varys.

The fact that JonCons group is in disguise, why would Lemore be the only one not? She has to hide, though I don't think it indicates necessarily from the Westerosi.

I imagine the second wife of Illryio who displaced the Pentoshi Princess, (another eerie parallel), would be quite well known to just about everyone in the Free Cities.

Did JonCon like Lyanna? He is wearing a wolfskin cloak. Another devlish detail.

Also, at some point, people that are dead should just remain dead, and certainly poor Ashara had enough sorrow to want to die. One more big reveal, (besides the given Jon), like who Varys really is is enough, or that theme loses it's impact and it's just too much.

[Queen Nymeria Martell]

Welcome!

And don't worry about the language difference, I think people understand. :)

Also, good analysis of Lyannas personality. If you want really good, objective information and deeper analysis of "the Wolfs Blood," may I point you to another thread, "Ice and Fire Animal Project: Wolves."

It's actually founded on animal behavior, and given Martins use of certain animals as sigils or totems, I think those traits, and the imagry they invoke are significant, as I think the "wolfs blood" motif is a little misunderstood.

It was stated by Selmy that "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it." He then went on to compare love as opposed to duty as a sure poison.

I do think the love between them was mutual, but beyond that, I need more information from Martin on everything in between.

Some people think they eloped, though some information not related to the book, but a project associated with Martin stated that Rhaegar enlisted the aid of Dayne and Whent in taking Lyanna.

I believe that while she may have loved him, everything else to do with any relationship, she likely was just as conflicted as Rhaegar, struggling with that sense of honor.

Thank you for the welcome. I tried to find more about more about the "Ice and Fire Animal Project: Wolves" but could not find it, do you have a link to give me?

I still did not have the time (and patience) to read all threads but most of #49, but first I like to reiterate that I strongly believe in R+L=J and I am convinced that Jon is legitimate. You people convinced me, so after all, writing over and over about the ToJ and KG vow was not in vain. It is possible that other people reading the thread, like me, have been convinced too :)

Please be kind to me, maybe I am writing stupid theories, but as I wrote before I am obsessed with the events before Jon is born, and I still cannot see Lyanna running away with Rhaegar.

Now, after reading some posts in thread #50, a theory came to my mind... sorry if someone already mentioned it... I think it is very strange that Ashara is linked so many times to a Stark. We already know how Ned was a honorable man and Selmy says that Ashara was dishonored in Harrenhal, and gave birth to a stilborn daughter. How he knows it, we do not know, but as many people wrote here, he loved her and would pay more attention to her than other people.

So if Ashara was "dishonored" and Arthur is Rhaegar's best friend as well as a Kingsguard, do you think maybe - maybe - that Lyanna was taken as a hostage to force Brandon to do the right thing - not marry Catelyn Tully and marry Ashara? Maybe Lyanna was told what Brandon did and agreed to go with them? I know it is a strange idea but another behaviour that does not make too much sense to me is Brandon going to KL to confront Rhaegar. If R and L eloped or if R kidnnaped Lyanna would they be in KL? Why would Brandon think like this?

I know it sounds confusing, but if Brandon knew that Rhaegar and Dayne took Lyanna as hostage to force him to marry Ashara, then I would understand him going to KL to confront Rhaegar, it would make more sense to me. Also, it was very convenient that all people who went to KL with Brandon are all dead (as well as their poor fathers).

This way, Ashara getting pregnant would have played a much significant part on the whole plot other than giving Ned a plausible mother to Jon.

Again, sorry if this has been discussed or if the idea is too crazy.

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you for the welcome. I tried to find more about more about the "Ice and Fire Animal Project: Wolves" but could not find it, do you have a link to give me?

I still did not have the time (and patience) to read all threads but most of #49, but first I like to reiterate that I strongly believe in R+L=J and I am convinced that Jon is legitimate. You people convinced me, so after all, writing over and over about the ToJ and KG vow was not in vain. It is possible that other people reading the thread, like me, have been convinced too :)

Please be kind to me, maybe I am writing stupid theories, but as I wrote before I am obsessed with the events before Jon is born, and I still cannot see Lyanna running away with Rhaegar.

Now, after reading some posts in thread #50, a theory came to my mind... sorry if someone already mentioned it... I think it is very strange that Ashara is linked so many times to a Stark. We already know how Ned was a honorable man and Selmy says that Ashara was dishonored in Harrenhal, and gave birth to a stilborn daughter. How he knows it, we do not know, but as many people wrote here, he loved her and would pay more attention to her than other people.

So if Ashara was "dishonored" and Arthur is Rhaegar's best friend as well as a Kingsguard, do you think maybe - maybe - that Lyanna was taken as a hostage to force Brandon to do the right thing - not marry Catelyn Tully and marry Ashara? Maybe Lyanna was told what Brandon did and agreed to go with them? I know it is a strange idea but another behaviour that does not make too much sense to me is Brandon going to KL to confront Rhaegar. If R and L eloped or if R kidnnaped Lyanna would they be in KL? Why would Brandon think like this?

I know it sounds confusing, but if Brandon knew that Rhaegar and Dayne took Lyanna as hostage to force him to marry Ashara, then I would understand him going to KL to confront Rhaegar, it would make more sense to me. Also, it was very convenient that all people who went to KL with Brandon are all dead (as well as their poor fathers).

This way, Ashara getting pregnant would have played a much significant part on the whole plot other than giving Ned a plausible mother to Jon.

Again, sorry if this has been discussed or if the idea is too crazy.

I'm in my car traveling, So I'll get you the link when I get home tonight since the phone is tricky.:)

Brandon didn't want to marry Cat and if Ser Arther wanted to force Rickards hand, Rhaegar may not have been opposed to helping his friend,

especially if too viewed Ashara as a little sister and Arthur helped him with Lyanna.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, died during the Sack of King's Landing. Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis is alive.

Varys lied by omission, as he always does. He told Kevan Aegon was back, but he deliberately avoided the names or Rhaegar or the Targaryens in general. Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis (and the Blackfyre cause) can be back too, not only Aegon son of Rhaegar... and Varys is deliberately blurring the lines.

I just want to second (third? fourth?) this and point out that Varys has done this very same thing before, in the first book, actually.

When Ned's investigating the Arryn murder and lands on Ser Hugh, he and Varys have a scene where Varys describes a boy who owes all he has to Arryn, who stayed on in King's Landing scene even after Arryn died and is oh so very suspicious. At the time, Ned — and we — had every reason to think Varys was talking about Ser Hugh. That's what Ned assumed and Varys probably knew that's what Ned assumed, but still didn't correct him or actually specify. With the benefit of hindsight, however, Varys was talking about Littlefinger, and even way back then was obtusely hinting to Ned that it was Littlefinger who was ultimately responsible for Arryn's death.

This is much the same way he engages with Kevan — Kevan thinks he's referring to the actual Aegon, and Varys knows that's who Kevan is thinking of, but doesn't bother to correct him.