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Melisandre's grand plan (spoilers/theory)


Lisbeth Sand

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The priests of R'hollor seem to be getting all hot and bothered over the proper monarch for Westeros. Though there's some debate over who is that proper king/queen. Priests in Essos tend to favor Daenerys for the IT and consider her the AAR, while Melisandre is of course championing Stannis.

Or is she? At the end of ADWD:

Ramsay Bolton claims to have killed Stannis, though whether this is true is debatable. And there is debate amongst fans as to whether Jon Snow will come back from his... thorny situation.

Melisandre tries to get close to Snow while she's on the Wall, whether he wants it or not. And whether you believe Ned Stark or Rhaegar Targaryen fathered Snow, he has a king's blood in him. (Starks were kings in the north before AL, and Snow's half brother rose as king again.)

Jon took whatever measures possible to make sure Melisandre didn't sacrifice anyone with a king's blood. He sent Aemon away, swapped babies, etc. But he never seems to think about his own blood.

Theory: Jon and Stannis are just stepping stones to the bigger battle, whether she sees it or not. Once Melisandre made it to the Wall, she couldn't see him in her fires anymore. Before then, she and Stannis saw a battle in the snow. Meanwhile, Jon Snow has been sitting in the prime location for a great battle with the Others all along. Jon also points out that all of Melisandre's readings so far have been inaccurate, while she is quick to point out often that humans make mistakes. Could she be so bad at her job that she can't see she isn't dealing with the real king, but cyvasse pieces in a larger game? Or is she aware of the endgame and playing the fool?

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Why everyone seems to forget where Melisandre is? She is at the Wall, a giant chunk of ice, created by Bran the Builder and enforced with all sorts of magic of CotF and First Men. Further more, this is place of Old Gods. Just like Ghost of High Heart warned Thoros his fires are not welcome, here Melisandre isn`t welcomed. That`s why her visions are blurry and she can`t interpret them well. Wall and its magic is surpressing hers, and that`s why she can`t understand what she sees - that the true King is right in front of her.

edit: spelling

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She's in the midst of a learning curve. And hasn't had access to this much real magic in the world for a long time either, so, assuming she's ancient, she's rusty and needs to get back into magical shape again with practice. Mel is a fire hottie trying to adapt to an ice continent her people haven't traditionally set foot on. There's a learning curve, much as someone from Minnesota might get sunburned while learning to adapt to life on a beach in San Diego. So I think she's running some schemes successfully and there's some parts of her plan we don't know yet, but at the same time she's blundering some other things and would probably like to have a do-over. (I'm not sure if Jon's last chapter is one of her tricks or something she'd like to do over.)

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Why everyone seems to forget where Melisandre is? She is at the wall, a giant chunk of ice, created by Bran the Builder and enforced with all sorts of magic of CotF and First Men. Further more, this is place of Old Gods. Just like Ghost of High Heart wared Thoros his fires are not welcome, here Melisandre isn`t welcomed. That`s why her visions are blurry and she can`t interpret them well. Wall and its magic is surpressing hers, and that`s why she can`t understand what she sees - that the true King is right in front of her.

Which makes her own feeling of 'extra power' at the wall that much cooler :)

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Why everyone seems to forget where Melisandre is? She is at the Wall, a giant chunk of ice, created by Bran the Builder and enforced with all sorts of magic of CotF and First Men. Further more, this is place of Old Gods. Just like Ghost of High Heart warned Thoros his fires are not welcome, here Melisandre isn`t welcomed. That`s why her visions are blurry and she can`t interpret them well. Wall and its magic is surpressing hers, and that`s why she can`t understand what she sees - that the true King is right in front of her.

edit: spelling

Melisandre notices that her powers are growing stronger. Inefficient, but stronger. How could that be the case if the Wall is throwing interference at her?

This would also but a kink in her assertions that "there are no Gods save R'hollor and the Other."

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Melisandre notices that her powers are growing stronger. Inefficient, but stronger. How could that be the case if the Wall is throwing interference at her?

This would also but a kink in her assertions that "there are no Gods save R'hollor and the Other."

That inefficiency is what matters. Her powers are stronger because of existance of dragons, and possibly because Jon is near, but Wall is interfering in that magic, making the visions blurrier and more difficult to interpret.

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In some ways, Melisandre's PoV was one of the most revealing in Dance. As far as I can tell, it's the first time we'd gotten a PoV from an experienced magic practitioner and some new insight into the way magic works.

Melisandre is an accomplished showman, even if her estimation of her own ability to decode the visions in the fires seems to belie her actual prowess. We see that projecting power is every bit as nuanced as we'd expect it to be, and that there's a lot about magic in this world that we don't understand. As others have pointed out, Melisandre's reaction to the Wall's effect on her powers is intriguing and frustrating because we haven't see her do much with them. Most of her great acts of magic took place before Stannis's relocation to the Wall.

I wish we knew more about her history and her association with the Red Temple. Of all the Red Priests, she seems the least institutionalized and the most independent, like the R'hllorian version of an itinerant friar. She operates largely at her own direction to the point where I've often wondered if she is a rogue or a member of a splinter group within the Red Temple.

As others have suggested, I don't think that Stannis was ever her final stop, although Melisandre doesn't seem to grasp that yet. It's possible that she's involved with the letter somehow, as we've seen her engage in subterfuge, but what price is she willing to pay to spur Jon Snow to action?

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That inefficiency is what matters. Her powers are stronger because of existance of dragons, and possibly because Jon is near, but Wall is interfering in that magic, making the visions blurrier and more difficult to interpret.

I don't think her powers are stronger because dragons exist. Rather, it seems like dragons are another symptom of the rising tide of magic in the world, at least in the West.

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Melisandre is just a religious fanatic who has some knowledge of magic. Her 'magic' is stronger at the wall because there is all sorts of ancient magic imbued in it. She believes she's much more powerful than she is. If she does have a bigger part to play, she doesn't know it yet.

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I don't think her powers are stronger because dragons exist. Rather, it seems like dragons are another symptom of the rising tide of magic in the world, at least in the West.

Actually it is said that after rebirth of dragons, entore magic of the world stirred up. Thoros and other red priests could preform resurrections, visions they ahve seen in fire became clearer. Dragons existing in the world returned full power of magic.

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That inefficiency is what matters. Her powers are stronger because of existance of dragons, and possibly because Jon is near, but Wall is interfering in that magic, making the visions blurrier and more difficult to interpret.

Mladen I have to disagree. Other magics have only been a barrier to Mel in the past. For example at Storm's End (built by the same person who made the Wall), her shadowbaby could not pass through the castle wall, it had no affect on her power. I think the the Wall is the same deal, a shadowbaby, much like a wight, cannot pass through, but has not affect on her magical powers. Dragons and fire magic in general have been around and on an upward swing for several years now, yet Mel specifically mentions in her POV that her powers grew stronger at the wall. To me this suggest that the Wall itself is making her powers stronger.

Also, I do not believe her visions are blurrier at the wall. She has the same problems there as she does with Stannis, interpreting the visions. She see's the lone rider on a white mare, and assumes it's Arya with out actually knowing.

I get what you're saying about a fire preistess not belonging on the wall, but then again neither do Targaryes, yet Aemon has been there, also Bloodraven, and now Jon snow, so there is a precedence.

Actually it is said that after rebirth of dragons, entore magic of the world stirred up. Thoros and other red priests could preform resurrections, visions they ahve seen in fire became clearer. Dragons existing in the world returned full power of magic.

Chicken or the egg right there. Did the return of magic cause the birth of dragons, or did the birth of dragons cause the return of magic. Keep in mind, 6 warg siblings all found 6 Direwolf pups before the dragons were born.

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Actually it is said that after rebirth of dragons, entore magic of the world stirred up. Thoros and other red priests could preform resurrections, visions they ahve seen in fire became clearer. Dragons existing in the world returned full power of magic.

There's some evidence, including one of Bran's visions, that suggests dragons never stopped existing in Asshai.

The ability for people to perform magic seems to have increased over the course of the novels, after the birth of the dragons, but that gives us a correlation, not causation. Dragons are magical creatures, but they don't seem to be beacons of magic, so it's hard for me to see how introducing dragons into the western end of Essos has the impact of boosting magic all over the western part of the world. What makes more sense is that dragons require some level of magic in the world in order to exist and to be healthy, and that the presence of dragons is one of the most visible symbols of magic's return, not the cause.

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I get what you're saying about a fire preistess not belonging on the wall, but then again neither do Targaryes, yet Aemon has been there, also Bloodraven, and now Jon snow, so there is a precedence.

And remember what Aemon said about fire dreams on the Wall. They never troubled him because of ice in the Wall surpressing them and he should have known that. So, for Targaryen insanity, Wall is the best place to be.

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And remember what Aemon said about fire dreams on the Wall. They never troubled him because of ice in the Wall surpressing them and he should have known that. So, for Targaryen insanity, Wall is the best place to be.

Honestly I don't think there is enough evidence to say either way. Yes, the Targ / prophetic dreams Aemon had stopped at the wall, however Mel clearly states her powers grew stronger there. Also, I do not believe there is any mention of her visions being blurrier or any more harder to read. Most people seem to believe that Ice magic and Fire magic are really 2 sides to the same coin. If this is the case, an area like the wall would be universally more magical and all forms of magic (blood magic and other forms) would be more powerful at that location.

Also, Bloodraven is probably the most magical being in the books, and he's half Targaryen.

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Honestly I don't think there is enough evidence to say either way. Yes, the Targ / prophetic dreams Aemon had stopped at the wall, however Mel clearly states her powers grew stronger there. Also, I do not believe there is any mention of her visions being blurrier or any more harder to read. Most people seem to believe that Ice magic and Fire magic are really 2 sides to the same coin. If this is the case, an area like the wall would be universally more magical and all forms of magic (blood magic and other forms) would be more powerful at that location.

Also, Bloodraven is probably the most magical being in the books, and he's half Targaryen.

You are right. Neither of us can be 100% certain about these questions. My idea is that First Men/CotF magic isn`t compatible with R`hllor`s magic. That`s why Melisandre`s powers are rather inefficient at the Wall. I think that both sides fights the Others, just on different ways. Red priests think fire is solution, and First Men think it`s ice of the Wall.

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I found Mels first POV to be very telling in her intentions. Wasn't the sacrifice of Mance to give kings blood to the fires for her visions? Then we find out she was the one who transformed Mance to Rattleshirt and vice versa. Why would she lie to Stannis?

Then why would she use Mance to help Jon find and rescue Arya (or Jeyne Poole)? What purpose does that serve Mel?

Why would she stay behind at the Wall, a place she is clearly not welcome with only 12 of the weakest, crippled, old and blind guards? Wildlings and the Nights Watch are not all that friendly toward R'Hillor?

I think Mel knows what and who Jon is. I think she needs a little time to try and figure it out. Thats why she stayed behind, thats why she lied to Stannis and thats why she saved Mance and is helping Jon.

Or maybe its something else...lol!

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I think that both Melisandre and Stannis are using each other as a means to their own ends. Stannis doesn't necessarily believe that he is Azor Azai, however he sees that Melisandre does have some type of real power whether it be from R'hllor or Magic, so he thinks it can benefit his cause. However, Stannis also has to question why Azor Azai's own brother needed to be killed in order for him to get the bannermen that he needs, or why his own nephew, Edric Storm, would need to be sacrificed. Also, Stannis may not know this, but while Melisandre claims that Shadows are agents of Light, the practice of Shadowbinding is something that is completely separate from the faith of R'hllor. People from different faiths other than R'hllor can do shadowbinding, hence Mirri Maz Duur was a shadowbinder. In addition to that, we have never seen another Red Priest perform Shadowbinding, and we have also never seen Melisandre heal anybody like Thoros and Moqorro did.

Melisandre's true motives are somewhat tricky, and I think GRRM has left it that way for a reason. While Melisandre preaches the "Lord of Light" and the "Azor Azai Prophecy", I am under the impression that she has another agenda, perhaps "preventing the prophecy" could be a crackpot guess. Melisandre herself has to know that Stannis is not the real Azor Azai, she set up the whole ceremony where Stannis pulls the sword from the burning fire. I'm sorry, but I believe a situation like Dany hatching the eggs in Drogo's pyre to be more like what I would expect from Azor Azai, instead of some ruse concocted by Melisandre. Also, Melisandre stayed behind at the wall because she was seeing "Snow" in her fires everytime she asked for a glimpse of Azor Azai, and why would that be if Stannis is the son of fire.

And I know that the show is separate from the books, but they will still eventually follow the same storyline and more or less end up in the same place. Melisandre told Stannis in the show, "Your fire has burned low my king." Why would Stannis' fire be burning low if he is Azor Azai and the "Son of Fire"? I expect to find out that Melisandre has a different plan for things then she leads on.......

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You are right. Neither of us can be 100% certain about these questions. My idea is that First Men/CotF magic isn`t compatible with R`hllor`s magic. That`s why Melisandre`s powers are rather inefficient at the Wall. I think that both sides fights the Others, just on different ways. Red priests think fire is solution, and First Men think it`s ice of the Wall.

I think just the oppisite, that CotF/First Men magic and R'hllor magic are in actuality the same thing. The difference is the pacticioners have 10,000 years of different society, history, and genealogy, and are seperated by thousands of miles of land and sea, thus resulting in Ice and Fire.

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My idea is that First Men/CotF magic isn`t compatible with R`hllor`s magic.

I think there's some merit to the idea that we're possibly dealing with two separate "systems" of magic here. For lack of better terms, I'll call them nature magic and blood magic. Nature magic, the magic of the old gods, seems to be an innate power possibly dependent on bloodlines. Blood magic, which encompasses just about every other use of magic by humans, seems like it can be learned by anyone and operates on a transactional basis of life force for power.

I don't think we've yet seen these two magics clash, but it will be interesting to see how they interact with each other.

That`s why Melisandre`s powers are rather inefficient at the Wall. I think that both sides fights the Others, just on different ways. Red priests think fire is solution, and First Men think it`s ice of the Wall.

I don't think we can say her powers are inefficient at the Wall. She can certainly sense that magic is magnified there, but her ability to read the flames seems as unreliable as it has always been. Other reasons are given (Stannis) for her inability to produce more shadow assassins. Other than seeing visions, her use of magic has dropped off at the wall, with the one new use we know about being the glamor applied to Mance Rayder.

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