Jump to content

The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK


Lummel

Recommended Posts

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Welcome to the second thread of the Jon Snow Reread Project brought to you by the collective promise of Butterbumps!, Ragnorak and myself. The reread started here and the most recent chapter post was Jon VIII.

Please feel free to read along and post your reactions to the chapter or just anything that strikes you as interesting or odd. GRRM's choice of words, a parallel in another chapter or even another POV, references, allusions or foreshadowings - it all adds to the conversation.

For the sake of that conversation and the enjoyment of everybody reading and posting we have some simple rules for this reread:

Please DON’T: Analyze future chapters. References to future events are fine but otherwise stick with the current or past chapters.
Please DON’T: Snipe with someone you disagree with – it's boring for everyone else and spoils the thread. State your opinion, give your evidence and agree to differ.

Please DO: Compare and contrast with other POVs. GRRM is fond of creating parallel scenes and role reversals.
Please DO: Show the support in the text for your views.

This isn't a hate, love or appreciation thread, we don't aim to convert but hope to analyse the character and the arc with a critical eye and we enjoy picking up on the big themes that really tie the series together.

We post about one chapter a week to open up and provide a starting point for discussion. The next chapter due will be Jon IX brought to you by Ragnorak.



Jon reread chapter posts:

aGoT Jon I (King's banquet at Winterfell)
aGoT Jon II (Jon says goodbyes to his family)
aGoT Jon III (At the Wall, Donal lectures Jon; Jon receives news of Bran)
aGoT Jon IV (Sam arrives; Jon reveals his dream of the crypts)
aGoT Jon V (Jon is told he's promoted; appeals to Aemon on behalf of Sam)
aGoT Jon VI (Sam is promoted; Jon and Sam take their vows; Ghost finds a hand)
aGoT Jon VII (ranging party studies bodies of Othor and Jafer; crypt dream; Jon gets news of Ned's treason; Jon fights Othor the wight)
aGoT Jon VIII (Jon gets Longclaw; news of Robb's march; Aemon's "love is the bane of honor" conversation)
AGOT Jon IX (Jon attempts to skedaddle but is prevented by his friends, Mormont reveals that he is going to lead a mini-army north of the Wall)
AGOT Roundup
ACOK Jon I (Preparations for the expedition at the Wall, Mormont has an infodump of Targaryen history for Jon)
ACOK Jon II (Mormont's expedition reaches Whitetree)
ACOK Jon III (The expedition reaches Craster's)
ACOK Jon IV (Expedition reaches the fist of the first men)
ACOK Jon V (Qhorin arrives and leaves with Jon to range further north)
ACOK Jon VI (Jon's first date with Ygritte)
ACOK Jon VII (Jon in the Skirling Pass, his wolf dream, connection to Bran)
ACOK Jon VIII (Qhorin's sacrifice and Jon goes Wildling)
ACOK Roundup
ASOS Prologue
ASOS Jon I (Jon meets The Mance)

ASOS Jon II (Jon shaken and stirred, delivered to the Mance at the Fist of First Men

ASOS Sam I (Sam the Slayer)

ASOS Jon III (Jon, wandering in and around Ygritte's cave, invents the Lord's Kiss)

ASOS Jon IV (Jon goes over the Wall, Jarl has a great fall, there no king's men or king's horses to put him together again)

ASOS Sam II (death of Mormont, Sam and Gilly, cutting the onion)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Originally posted by Lummel)

Jon VIII AGOT

Overview – Upstairs Downstairs?

Jon Snow, recovering from his burns but not quite so well from his dreams attends Lord Commander Mormont who gives him his heirloom sword. Dismissed Jon descends into the yard and his mobbed by his friends peers class group demanding to see the sword. Jon shows them weapon – still feeling ambivalent about it and his place in the world. Sam summonses him to attend to Maester Aemon with whom Jon has a significant conversation.

Observations

  • death has his father's face. What is Jon struggling with here?
  • “The Stark words had never sounded so grim or ominous to Jon as they did now” previously no doubt they always been associated with snowballs and sledging
  • “Bastard or no, you're still his blood” The Ned also tells Catelyn that Jon is of his blood.
  • The path not taken still calls to Jon
  • “Jon could scarcely believe it” nor can the reader!
  • “if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will” the bones apparently
  • “He filled his fist and tossed the raw red morsels into the cage, and the squawking and squabbling grew hotter.” A feast for crows.

Analysis

Marked out for leadership

If Mormont taking on Jon as his personal steward suggested to Sam a grooming relationship (not surprisingly since his father was urging him to have a feel of his sword). No, enough of these horrible double entendres, if Mormont was looking to mentor Jon by making him his steward, giving him the sword suggests a transmission of leadership as the gift of Blackfyre to Daemon did (as readers of The Sworn Sword might recall).

In a broader sense it suggests something of an investiture or even an act of homage. The Mormonts received Bear Island from the Starks, the heirloom of the house is being presented to a Stark. An idle thought perhaps.

Longclaw might be an equivalent to Ice. Both lost to their families, both to differing extents remade and re-purposed. Destruction and reconstruction is a common enough motiv in ASOIAF, I suppose linking into death and rebirth.

Love and honour

“'Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?'...'He would do whatever was right'”

It seems to me that Jon here expects that the right thing to do would be the honourable thing. Here we remember that he is a green boy smelling of summer. The argument of the book is not so clear cut. Aemon won't say, except as to the hardness of the choice and the burden of the decision, however we see the choice that The Ned makes between honour and love, perhaps more than once if Jon is the Prince who was promised.

If love is the answer, then duty and the world of oaths are a problem – even if Jaime's dilemma had not cued us in to that already. If oaths are the problem then we should be cautious about how we understand the Night's Watch and wary of Jon XIII ADWD.

Bloody hands

This is a topic that has been opened up by Ragnorak as a symbol of the acceptance of responsibility and the consequences of decision making. As such it is the central moment in the chapter and integral to thinking about “love is the bane of honor, the death of duty” and the transmission of the sword.

The absolute counterpoint here is Lord Baelish at the centre of the realm evading his responsibilities as opposed to characters on the periphery who accept their burdens. In the centre there is a game, on the edge, something serious and earnest. I will in decent modesty differ to Ragnorak to develop this theme - or perhaps simply to link to some of his other posts on the topic ;)

Ambivalence

I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice”. We have the ongoing theme of Jon's desire for acknowledge, for Winterfell or Ice with his feeling of not deserving it, or being the wrong person – a feeling that pursues through his dreams down into the family crypts. Here this is extended to Longclaw. He is not Mormont's son, he thinks (the transmission of the sword implying a father son relationship). He is not worth of it either perhaps in his own minds. For Mormont on the contrary deeds are the thing.

This ties in to his existing feeling of being on the outside “He was all alone, he thought, apart from the others in the litter. He was different so they drove him out.” This is something that as we have seen requires active work and engagement on his part to over come . The problem here is that the Night's Watch requires an absolute commitment and there will be plenty of tensions to come.

Another point of ambivelence here is Jon distancing himself from the lads of his own age and being drawn into the orbit of Mormont and Aemon. Very different concerns and longer perspectives. Something that will be elaborated on in the next chapter.

Family

Finally family. The oath requires a rejection of family ties, but the watch itself is a form of substitute family. Mormont is a father figure, the rest are all brothers. However there is a human cost as Aemon makes clear. The question is if that cost is worth it. I'll mention in passing the oath as a covenant. Something that can be upheld or broken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I just say I've thoroughly enjoyed catching up on your posts in this re-read project. It would be wonderful to see you guys work through each character in ASOIAF in the same fashion as you have here with Jon- it really has enriched my reading experience. (and yes- it's a bit geeky but I am currently re-reading the books and referring to your Tyrion reread project after each of his chapters- I know- I'm a nerd)

Anyway, my apologies if this seems a little off topic, but I just wanted to pick up on something Manderley said during the Jon I thread. I appreciate "Marsh vs Jon" is a touchy subject, so I shall try to keep it as civilised as possible. My motive here is not to paint Jon in a bad light but to try and see Jon's actions through the eyes of others, to try and get a better understanding of future events.

"Bowen Marsh wasn't a Thorne Cronie till much later as far as we know, there is no text that I recall to suggest that Bowen Marsh was Thorne's friend, like it was mentioned Smallwood was Thorne's friend,

I disagree with you that they were not considered friends. GRRM establishes a connection between Thorne and Marsh very early on.

"I have seen dead men with more humour than your ser Alliser"

"Not so," objected the Lord Steward. Bowen Marsh, a man as round and red as a Pomegranate. "You aught to hear the droll names he gives the lads he trains"

Marsh is the one who leaps to Thorne's defence. In doing so, he is overlooking the bitter edge to Thorne's humour. Does this suggest Marsh shares a lack of love/compassion towards the young recruits, or a fondness/sympathy towards Thorne? Either way, there is very little "droll" about Thorne's sense of humour. They are also associated together by Mormont later on:

"Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would need to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are"

I'm not sure what exactly Mormont means here. He is connecting the two together and it is about more than their unsuitability to be future Lord Commanders. I would be interested to hear some thoughts about what that connection is.

For what it's worth, I think both men take so much pride in their narrow-minded sense of "honour" and "duty" that it comes at a price- the price is an inability to love, or an inability to value acts of love or compassion if it comes at a risk of compromising their highly esteemed duty. It is a conceit, and twists a noble concept into something heartless and at times, self-serving. As a follower, and a man who values duty highly, it is understandable that Marsh would gravitate towards Thorne and be influenced by his views, and such men may, unlike Mormont or many others of the NW, have taken a rather dim view of Jon's behaviour.

Furthermore, this rather extreme, narrow minded mentality allows both to feel they can look down on those who's sense of "duty" can be brought into question. Thorne is implying Ned can be looked down upon as a traitor because he rebelled against the King- twice- something Thorne never did, with the further implication that treachery runs in the family- and to compound matters, out comes the knife. Marsh reinforces this attitude in future chapters when he calls Stannis a rebel and doesn't want the NW to be marked down as traitors by siding with him.

Bowen treats Jon fairly well despite Jon's anger and outburst when Jon is selected for the Stewards. I think Jon' attempted knifing would have been put down to his young age and Ser Alliser Thorne's provocation, a foolish and punishable act but nothing more, since everyone was at that time sympathetic to Jon.

Well I'm not sure Thorne was feeling very sympathetic at that time. Bowen Marsh may try to avoid open hostilities, but I'm not assuming Marsh felt much sympathy towards Jon when Jon was kicking stew all over the brothers and drawing a knife on an Officer he held in high esteem. Where is Jon's sense of duty to the NW here? He has failed the test. I very much doubt the NW unanimously felt this was a forgettable act. We get reminders all the time that the majority view isn't the unanimous view- as demonstrated by Chett's private grudge against Jon in ASOS. Indeed, I think Marsh felt there was something to Thorne's words "Not only a bastard, but a traitors bastard" We all know Marsh's views on duty and treachery, and his bigotry towards people like Satin may have caused him to look down on Jon's bastard status as a genuine reason to believe Jon was not an honourable man, and to to take Thorne's words about bastardy and treachery to heart.

This doesn't mean it has to manifest itself in an openly hostile attitude though. People can dwell on things without directly voicing them. Instead, he voices his concerns through others "My Lord, I am not one to bear tales, but..." I believe Thorne's absence, and Jon's subsequent act of loyalty in saving the LC led Marsh to go along with the majority, and to push Thorne's (and his) concerns to the back of his mind. Forgiven, yes, but not forgotten.

Another issue you mention is his young age. Yes- Jon is very young and foolish when pulling his knife, but from Marsh's perspective, what's changed exactly when Jon is made LC one year later? In Bowen's eyes, Jon is still very young and has been at the Wall for a very short length of time. Is it young, noble, but foolish to exhaust the supplies for empty mouths? Is it young, noble but foolish to send the lot of them off to Hardhome? So bringing it back to AGOT, I think this incident may have flavoured his future faith in Jon's judgement. We see AGOT/ACOK as a growing-up process for Jon, but is it really possible for someone like Marsh to drawn a line under people's past misdemeanours and assume they have "killed the boy" within- and all in the space of a year? I'm not sure that is realistic. I see Marsh far more in the prejudicial "mud sticks" "once a bastard always a bastard" category, as much as he tries to hide it with his meekness and sense of duty. So I guess what I'm arguing here is that in spite of Marsh's very strong sense of duty to the chain of command and to the NW, it is an already ambivalent man who is forced to serve Jon after losing the election. His initial compliance is not a sign of his confidence.

If you are saying that this event somehow played a role in future, when Bowen Marsh weighs Jon's actions, I don't think that would be the case, Bowen Marsh is dutiful and very much loyal to the NW, Bowen considers different reasons to think Jon was a traitor, I doubt that Jon trying to kill Alliser Thorne would have been on his mind, since there was so much else going on. I would have liked to say more and in detail but this jumping way too ahead, perhaps we can get back to it, when we get there.

I agree discussing Marsh's hostility may seem a little premature yet when there is no evidence to support it at this stage. It may be best to put a hold on this line of thought and wait until Jon and BM start to interact more, but I still think this incident is worthy of note given the strong parallels between this incident and the Red Letter which prompts BM's betrayal. GRRM mentions how Jon kicked stew all over the brothers sitting around Thorne which I feel is a significant detail to add. Jon isn't just upsetting Thorne here. He is upsetting many people in the NW. It is true Marsh's name was not explicitly mentioned as being around Thorne, but this is Jon's POV and he was at that moment blinkered with rage. Even if Marsh was not sat around Thorne discussing Ned's treason, he undoubtedly witnessed the incident and would have remembered it. Here, Jon is choosing family over duty, retaliating to provocation, and the brothers of the NW are overlooked, ignored, and covered in stew. His family's reputation is worth more than the NW and them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The logistics of washing clothes in that cold, and the amount of time it would take to dry... who does the washing, brothers of the NW themselves? Somehow I don't see Thorne, Marsh and the rest leaning over the tub scrubbing. Maybe if they were lucky they could get away with letting it dry and then brushing, but the smell and staining would remain.

No, I think the stewards had to issue some clean outer clothes. And I think that they don't change those all that often, but had to in this case. Soap expenditure; fuel for hot water expenditure; you wash too often the black turns to gray... You can't leave them out to dry in chance they freeze and break so you have to heat up rooms to dry the clothes inside, again fuel used.

Guess who had to make the decision and live with it. ;D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mladen wrote

5. Aemon`s words... this is the great dilemma, something like Antigone`s tragic guilt. Oath or family? From Jaime and Theon, to Jon, oaths have deep significance. It`s not just some code you respect, it`s also trial that can sentence you when you fail. Kingslayer, Crow-Come-Over, Turncloak. Each nickname given to describe a very important moment in each of their lives. Aemon is right, the only way you can serve is to be without ties, without love. For we have seen many times how love and family became death of oaths.

I agree on the nicknames and the significance of oaths but I think it is important to note that Aemon does not say that either honour or love is superior simply that you have to chose and live with the consequences of that choice.

To my mind the tide of the book runs in favour of love, but I am sure there are other opinions :)

Manderlay wrote

He gave Longclaw to Jon for two reasons in my view, one was to thank him for saving his life, as he had no use for his sword, he had forgotten it and never used it, another was to lift Jon's spirits after everything that happened, also in a way to make it difficult for Jon to leave the NW and go south to help his father and brother, of course it didn't work but it certainly shamed Jon. I think Jon suspects what Mormont is doing

"He is not my father. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give"

The Aemon and Jon conversation was very good, Aemon was blunt while Mormont was subtle by giving Jon the sword, as I said in my view Mormont thought to make it difficult for Jon to leave the NW. I think both Aemon and Mormont are trying to make sure that Jon doesn't leave because, they know his worth and want to groom him for command.

Interesting idea that the sword ties him to the watch!

Ragnorak wrote

Jon wonders why Aemon is talking about ravens and doves which is a sure clue that we ought to be wondering as well. This is as much about leadership as it is about vows, honor and love given Aemon's awareness of Jon's grooming. There is no code of honor that one can blindly follow that will always be the right choice. Later we'll see this play out in both Jaime and Selmy as they reflect on the immorality of their own past obedience to "the code" and we'll see them confront their own murky choices. The burdens of leadership lead to black choices that will be hated and misunderstood by godly men like Baelor the Blessed. There are no clean hands with true responsibility. We'll even learn later when Oberyn and Tyrion speak that Baelor never truly ruled, never burdened himself with the weight of that responsibility-- he let his uncle Viserys get the blood on his hands...

...So while Aemon says that "love is the bane of honor, the death of duty" he also says that "We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." The glory or the tragedy comes with the choices and Baelor the Blessed is not our decision making role model-- the Nights Watch prefers ravens.

Worth repeating I thought.

The interesting thing for me, from the point of view of GRRM as gardener, is that now that GRRM has written that scene he goes on to reference it, fill in gaps, expand on it. Clean hands turns out not to be viable approach, life is messy and your hands will get dirty. Can we think well of Balor for evading responsibility by dumping it on his Hand?

Winterfellian

I view Aemon's speech as a way to coach us in how the honor sytem works in Westeros, and as a contrast between the old and the new generations, represented by both Jon and Aemon. I love that speech, but I have some disagreements with it and the application Maester Aemon gives it in terms of the NW.

I just realize I have more to add on this matter, and that it will be better if I use book quotes to make my point but I don't enough time so I will try to expand my point later.

we do disagree! I don't think that Aemon is pushing for the honourable thing, I see it more of a warning.

We regard to heroism...I think GRRM is getting back to the Arthurian stories. The heroes there are not clear cut, Lancelot an adultor, Arthur willfully blind, members of Arthur's court have various moral failings, what is good in the physical world is not good enough for the spiritual and so on. GRRM is not placing his heroes in a position where what ever they do is good by definition because they are his heroes I feel :dunno:

Julian Reyne wrote

The Watch is in a state of catharsis. After the wight attack, they can no longer deny what's happening, but it also means that they can finally talk about it openly. The fact that they won (or survived) their very first encounter with their boogeyman must have had most of Castle Black on a slight emotional high for a few days.

interesting - the attack is a validation of their purpose and calling

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I just say I've thoroughly enjoyed catching up on your posts in this re-read project. It would be wonderful to see you guys work through each character in ASOIAF in the same fashion as you have here with Jon- it really has enriched my reading experience. (and yes- it's a bit geeky but I am currently re-reading the books and referring to your Tyrion reread project after each of his chapters- I know- I'm a nerd)...

:) nice feedback, thank you!

The logistics of washing clothes in that cold, and the amount of time it would take to dry...

Aye...I think this is one of those instances when you have to remember that it is a fantasy novel, but if you are not squeamish then may I remind you that Yoren smells 'sour'. Not washing or cleaning clothes might be the rule up at the Wall. Nobody mentions the sour stink because they all smell like that possibly.

But you can argue against my universally stinky theory by pointing out that neither Tyrion nor Stannis complain about the piquant odour upon arrival at Castle Black, but then maybe they weren't so clean either? :laugh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am in the camp that Maester Aemon deeply believes in his mission. He does not counsel in good conscience one way or the other, because his own choice has taken a tremendous toll on him, a toll that he finds difficult to bear and undoubtedly as the years pass by couldn't help but think what it was that was worth abandoning his family over. He is a raven himself, one that tackles questions there are no good answers for, choices that leave the hands dirty no matter what one choses.

Later on, Qhorin Halfhand will raise the stakes even further by presenting Jon with a conflict between honor and duty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mladen wrote

I agree on the nicknames and the significance of oaths but I think it is important to note that Aemon does not say that either honour or love is superior simply that you have to chose and live with the consequences of that choice.

To my mind the tide of the book runs in favour of love, but I am sure there are other opinions :)

No, you are right. Books run in favour of love. Ned`s love for Lyanna and Sansa, Jaime`s for Cersei, Theon`s for his family, Jon`s for Arya etc. And you are completely right about love and honor being equal in some order. But, the point is which of them is the right thing? We discussed that there might be a difference between honor and righteousness, so is GRRM saying us that love can trump everything? Something like Dumbledore`s `Love is the most powerful magic` but in a much subtler way? I like to think that below all that Martin`s cruelty and viciousness he poured in the world, there is a deep romantic understanding... Perhaps I am wrong, and maybe the last two books will prove me wrong, but for now, books indeed have something very deep on emotional level, even regarding love.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Normally I would feel bad posting a new chapter in the midst of such good discussion, but this chapter is very much a thematic extension of the last and seems more an expansion of the topic than a change of subject. With that here's...

Jon IX (GoT)

Summary

Jon has heard of Ned's death and has chosen to ride south to join Robb. Sam, that brave coward, is blocking the exit from the stables trying to convince Jon not to go without any success. Jon rides down the kingsroad wrestling with choice and pauses after a time to eat and wait for Ghost to catch up. His friends catch up with him and he tries to hide behind a cluster of trees, but Ghost shows up and gives away his location. Jon is still intent on going but his friends surround him and recite the oath in turns. Jon agrees to return but is still intent on leaving again when doing so won't endanger his friends. Upon returning to the Wall he fetches Mormont's breakfast and the Old Bear confronts him about his ride. He tells Jon the Watch is riding in force north of the Wall and asks him whose war is more important. Jon makes his choice to stay.

Observations

The Moon. It would be a trivial reference for a night ride but for the initial imagery surrounding Sam.

Samwell Tarly stood in the stable door, a full moon peering over his shoulder. He threw a giant’s shadow, immense and black

For an instant Sam stood his ground, his face as round and pale as the moon behind him, his mouth a widening O of surprise.

Moonlight silvered the hills as he followed the twisting ribbon of the kingsroad.

The wolf slowed, stopped, watching, his eyes glowing red in the moonlight. He vanished behind, but Jon knew he would follow, at his own pace.

A bank of melting snow lay under the trees, bright in the moonlight, water trickling off to form small shallow pools

So be it. You look weary. Was your moonlight ride so tiring?”

Why Florian the Fool? I believe that is almost exclusively used surrounding Sansa.

to listen to Old Nan tell her tales of the children of the forest and Florian the Fool.

Hmm...

He kept the apple for last. It had gone a little soft, but the flesh was still tart and juicy. He was down to the core when he heard the sounds: horses, and from the north.

When at last he reached the bottom, a narrow, muddy trail along the water’s edge, Littlefinger was lazing against a rock and eating an apple. He was almost down to the core. “You are growing old and slow, Stark,” he said, flipping the apple casually into the rushing water. “No matter, we ride the rest of the way.” He had two horses waiting. Ned mounted up and trotted behind him, down the trail and into the city.

We get some feedback on how Jon and his wolf are perceived at the Wall

“All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours… he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I’m not.” Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. “I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall.”

Analysis

Fatherhood and Family

The fatherhood theme is continued here. It seems the gift of the sword amplified Jon's conflict over the death of Ned.

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father’s son, and Robb’s brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont.

In the end the acceptance of this sword symbolizes the resolution of Jon's conflict-- at least until salt and smoke are poured on reopened old wounds in Dance.

“I am… yours, my lord. Your man. I swear it. I will not run again.”

The Old Bear snorted. “Good. Now go put on your sword.”

The sword as a symbol of fatherhood is worth exploring. Mormont took the Black so his son could come into his own as a lord, which ironically probably deprived Jorah of that option when he was caught selling slaves. Mormont gave the sword to Jon but remade the hilt to fit Jon personally with Ghost, but that also matches House Stark's direwolf even though Jon is only a Snow. Mormont is intentionally divesting the sword of those properties (the name and the symbol on the hilt) that make it a father to son legacy gift. Jon honors the gift and Mormont by keeping the sword's name in a gesture that points to a shared quality of their Houses. I'm somewhat reminded of his talk with Arya over Joffrey's quartered arms. If Jon finds out he's a Targaryen, we can probably rule out quartered arms. His pseudo father/son relationship with Mormont here and his later acknowledgment of kinship with the wildlings speak of the family bonds that transcend mere blood relations. The fatherhood theme is also expanded to family with the contrast of Robb to his "brothers" though it does not seem as central as fatherhood this chapter.

Knowing your men-- and your boys

Knowing the men that serve under you is something that will emerge again later in Jon. Mormont and Aemon suspect Jon will run and they give him the freedom to do it. Mormont suspects Jon's friends will stop him but has a contingency plan in case he's wrong. There's a curious dynamic of knowing and giving freedom so that you may learn to know them better and they may learn from their actions as well. We'll see this with The Halfhand and Ygritte where he gives Jon the freedom to "take care of her" as he sees fit.

Here we see Jon analyze Sam and predict his behavior accurately regarding Mormont but fails to account for Sam going to the rest of his friends.

“Do you think they chose me Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch because I’m dumb as a stump, Snow? Aemon told me you’d go. I told him you’d be back. I know my men… and my boys too. Honor set you on the kingsroad… and honor brought you back.”

“My friends brought me back,” Jon said.

“Did I say it was your honor?” Mormont inspected his plate.

Previously we saw a Jon/Mormont dynamic where Mormont held back information. That seems to be over. Mormont had told Jon he expected him to act like a man regardless of his age. The sword was the gift that required a man to wield it. Here we see Mormont freely sharing his thoughts and concerns with Jon as a man and not sheltering him from information like a boy. He has shepherded Jon from boyhood to manhood but gave him wide leeway to find the path. This ties into the fatherhood theme, but also speaks to a leadership style of trusting subordinates to give them room to grow. The end of this chapter seems to mark the moment Jon transitions into manhood.

As a side note, this reminds me a bit of Doran knowing Arianne's plan and letting her go through with it to a point.

Oaths and Honor, Love and Morality

Jon wrestles with whether or not he made the right choice right up until the end of the chapter but actively debates it internally his whole ride.

Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well.

His fingers were throbbing worse than they had in days, and his head was pounding too. I am doing the right thing, he told himself, so why do I feel so bad?

No matter what he did, Jon felt as though he were betraying someone.

That was oathbreaking too, yet no one seemed to care.

There is no clear choice. All paths are grey and right, wrong and honor pull in all directions. Throughout the chapter Jon's hand continues to pain him which I believe echoes back to the idea of blood on one's hands from Aemon's speech. There's also the issue of love and how that weighs on things:

He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger. Would it have been any different? It must, surely, surely… and Robb would welcome him, for a certainty. He had to, or else…

This somewhat mirrors Ned's thoughts.

You love your children, do you not?”

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. “With all my heart.”

“No less do I love mine.”

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

I believe the answer to these dilemmas is given here:

Even now, he did not know if he was doing the honorable thing. The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods’ will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak.

To rely on a septon is to disown the responsibility of making the choice. The same is true of relying on a code or the letter of the law. Doing so amounts to keeping your hands clean by placing the responsibility of choosing on something external. That isn't to say laws or religious codes are useless. They are fine guides in simple times and simple circumstances but are not designed to be a substitute for wisdom or an absolution of responsibility. Looking at this passage the Heart Tree stands in the role of septon for the Old Gods. Right and wrong must be decided by the heart-- the home of love and source of blood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, you are right. Books run in favour of love. Ned`s love for Lyanna and Sansa, Jaime`s for Cersei, Theon`s for his family, Jon`s for Arya etc. And you are completely right about love and honor being equal in some order. But, the point is which of them is the right thing? We discussed that there might be a difference between honor and righteousness, so is GRRM saying us that love can trump everything? Something like Dumbledore`s `Love is the most powerful magic` but in a much subtler way? I like to think that below all that Martin`s cruelty and viciousness he poured in the world, there is a deep romantic understanding... Perhaps I am wrong, and maybe the last two books will prove me wrong, but for now, books indeed have something very deep on emotional level, even regarding love.

I think distinguishing between honour and righteousness is illusory in the context of ASOIAF, the right thing to do is the loving thing to do (which is why Stannis is so scary - its the absence of love). This leads me to suspect as you seem to that GRRM is just an old softie, despite all the carnage :laugh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think distinguishing between honour and righteousness is illusory in the context of ASOIAF, the right thing to do is the loving thing to do (which is why Stannis is so scary - its the absence of love). This leads me to suspect as you seem to that GRRM is just an old softie, despite all the carnage :laugh:

I think what makes GRRM less of a softie is that he acknowledges the dangers of doing the loving thing. Ned died for doing the right thing. Robb died for his love for Jeyne, ultimately. Rhaegar's and Lyanna's love dragged the realm into war and lead to the fall of the Targaryen dynasty. I could go on and on... but ultimately, I'll probably come down on the Ned side of things (or the balance of fiery love and icy duty): Order is important, but it should never be applied blindly, but instead it serves the higher purpose of protecting those we love.

Which is why I actually agree that Stannis, while preferable as a king to the current Lannister crop, is ultimately an Anti-Villain. Understandable, but ultimately dangerous... and even more dangerous for his friends than his foes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...To rely on a septon is to disown the responsibility of making the choice. The same is true of relying on a code or the letter of the law. Doing so amounts to keeping your hands clean by placing the responsibility of choosing on something external. That isn't to say laws or religious codes are useless. They are fine guides in simple times and simple circumstances but are not designed to be a substitute for wisdom or an absolution of responsibility. Looking at this passage the Heart Tree stands in the role of septon for the Old Gods. Right and wrong must be decided by the heart-- the home of love and source of blood.

It is interesting, now that you point it out, that the Baelor theme - the saint as a moral coward, attempting to opt out of the...er...reality of responsibility decision making in a complex world - is already here.

I also love that Mormont exchange "I didn't say it was your honour" :laugh:, your comparision with Prince Doran and his daughter running off to war brings me round to thinking about mentoring and leadership. I suppose an issue with mentoring is having to give the mentoree space to make mistakes so that they can learn from them, yet at the same time being in place to limit any potential wider damage - so the obvious contrast here is Tywin and his 'sharp lessons'. Tywin has no boundary system to prevent the worst from happening, nor is there any sense of allowing Tyrion or Joffrey to learn from their experience rather just punishment, punishment that transfers the burden of responsibility for the transgression from the Patriach to the child (who in their right mind allows a pair of teenagers to ride around the countryside with a bag of silver unattended and unwatched out for - for days?).

I think what makes GRRM less of a softie is that he acknowledges the dangers of doing the loving thing...Order is important, but it should never be applied blindly, but instead it serves the higher purpose of protecting those we love...

Yes, I'm with you on that - that seems a fair summation in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am… yours, my lord. Your man.

This struck me on my very first read because I was sure Jon was going to answer Mormont's question with the lines from the vow, the sword in the darkness, the watcher on the wall. Mormont had framed the question in terms of a choice between participating in the original role of the Night's Watch versus playing the game of thrones.

I don't know if identifying himself as Mormont's man instead of as a man of the Watch is significant, but I found it somewhat jarring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good job, Ragnorak.

Jon manages to avoid desertion as result of the Stark modus operandi, which is forging connections outside the family.

Dan Haggard:

Again we see how the concept of honour determined by their choice defines the individual. When Jon speaks with Lord Mormont – the commander of the Night’s Watch – after his brief desertion, Mormant is reasonably forgiving. But he sums up nicely the way in which Jon is a product of the ties to his brothers in the Night’s Watch. He says: ’Honour made you leave, and Honour made you come back.” - as if to say that Jon is at the mercy of the tensions implicit in the concept of honour itself. When Jon replies that it was his friends that made him come back, Mormont’ reply is perfect: “I didn’t say it was your honour that brought you back”. Sometimes the choice we end up making transcends who we are as an individual and is borne of the connections we have with other people. This is the essence of honour.

Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch.

This might be a shot in the dark, but later the giants and their mammoths are sent to Eastwatch.

Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?

Mules, horses, donkeys, it made no matter; to him they were all fearsome beasts, as terrifying as dragons and griffins.

"You've never been thrown off a thousand feet off the ground," Gerris pointed out. "And horses seldom turn their riders into charred bones and ashes."

Ravens have black wings, and again, this may be a shot in the dark, but it could foreshadow Jon mounting Drogon.

There is something else that I should have added in the chapter when Jon burned wighted Othor:

She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

Those are the shadows Dany sees in the tent: Ghost and wighted Othor when Jon threw the burning drapes on him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is interesting, now that you point it out, that the Baelor theme - the saint as a moral coward, attempting to opt out of the...er...reality of responsibility decision making in a complex world - is already here.

I also love that Mormont exchange "I didn't say it was your honour" :laugh:, your comparision with Prince Doran and his daughter running off to war brings me round to thinking about mentoring and leadership. I suppose an issue with mentoring is having to give the mentoree space to make mistakes so that they can learn from them, yet at the same time being in place to limit any potential wider damage - so the obvious contrast here is Tywin and his 'sharp lessons'. Tywin has no boundary system to prevent the worst from happening, nor is there any sense of allowing Tyrion or Joffrey to learn from their experience rather just punishment, punishment that transfers the burden of responsibility for the transgression from the Patriach to the child (who in their right mind allows a pair of teenagers to ride around the countryside with a bag of silver unattended and unwatched out for - for days?).

Yes, I'm with you on that - that seems a fair summation in my opinion.

Yes, Mormont's line is among my favorites. In truth it was love in the form of friendship that brought Jon back. For all their oath recitations it was them and not the words that swayed Jon. Though Mormont is still correct on their honor. Ned mentions bringing Bran to bridge the divide between Robb and Joffrey which reminds me a bit of Mormont's indirect mentoring here. The leader doesn't directly address the issue but arranges for circumstances that steer things in the desired direction and takes it from there. Jon himself will ponder this when debates letting Slynt live. Mentoring is a huge theme and I think we see the healthiest form of it in Jon. Mentoring is prominent in all the Stark children and I think you're correct in contrasting them with the Lannisters under Tywin, though it is no small thing in Arianne, Theon, Dany, Asha or Sam.

I like your use of the term "moral coward" for Baelor. The tradition of First Men justice is one where the executioner metaphorically becomes a Heart Tree as he plays God with another person's life. Looking into the person's eyes is like having them look into the face of a weirwood. The final judgment is one made by the heart and this practice actually sets the heart above the law-- and it is hard to overstate the significance of that. Baelor is described as someone who won't look at things or face them which is an especially nice contrast to a Heart Tree or the First Men tradition. He locked his sisters away so he wouldn't see them and turned his back on the procession of whores being exiled from KL so he couldn't see them either.

ETA

Fire Eater, very nice catch on Dany's vision. I never made that connection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if identifying himself as Mormont's man instead of as a man of the Watch is significant, but I found it somewhat jarring.

He still frames himself in the context of a knight swearing fealty to his lord, even if that lord is LC of NW. He still wants to serve honorably as a knight would, not realizing that NW is something different.

And when he debates about Aemon staying at the wall, he is thinking about it dualistically: craven/true, weak/strong... As if life was ever that simple. Compare: can a man be brave if he is afraid? That is the only time a man can be brave. <- Jon's exact blind spot.

Jon still has some growing up to do. :)

Edit: does he realize that life is not a song?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...Baelor is described as someone who won't look at things or face them which is an especially nice contrast to a Heart Tree or the First Men tradition. He locked his sisters away so he wouldn't see them and turned his back on the procession of whores being exiled from KL so he couldn't see them either...

OK so we are back to songs and historical memory then, since Baelor is held up as a great figure, but what we are saying is the reality is pretty shabby. On the other hand the heroism of The Ned in keeping his promise to Lyanna or sacrificing himself and his reputation for his daughter will never be publically acknowledged.

I'd best stop that line of thought because I'm getting perliously cose to discussing Jon XIII ADWD!

...Jon still has some growing up to do. :)

Edit: does he realize that life is not a song?

hehe, very good :)

The Wildlings in ADWD will also swear personal loyalty to Jon, 'the circle is complete' as my dear friend Darth Vader would say at times like this.

Duality is very interesting - everybody's favourite dualist in ASOIAF is Melisandre, but again the message of the book is that such simplicity is dangerous. So the warning to us as readers is to watch out for placing the characters into categories of being either good guys or bad guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ragnorak, well done again... As always, the Three muskeeteers give us a lot to think about.

My observations:

1. The moon. Wonderful catch about it. But, I would think of the moon as symbol that is strongly associated with wolves. Wolves like to howl to moon and some scientists think that in these nocturnal activities hides something more than a passtime. Basically, I would put it this way: The moon represents awakening of Stark direwolf in Jon, the return to his primal instincts, his wolf`s core. Under the moonlight, wolf runs to his pack. It is strong image that goes with what is happening in Jon`s head, and especially since his first thoughts are of Winterfell.

2. Sam Tarly and Neville Longbottom. I always liked this parallel, especially between this scene and when Neville in Phillosopher`s stone tries to stop Harry, Ron and Hermione. And as Dumbledore said: `It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemy, but even more to stand up to your friends`

3. Northerns vs Southerns honor. As Jon thinks, Southerners have septons to tell them what`s right and what`s wrong, he had to decide that on his own. And it`s very basic of what actually honor is. We have to make choices by ourselves and live by them. Here Ragnorak made beautiful parallel between people`s heart and Heart tree. I really like that, btw

4. I am doing the right thing, but why do I feel so bad? Moral doubts are something we see in almost every character in ASOIAF. Jon`s confronted with so many things, the code of honor his father installed, and the love he feels for his family. But, as much as he reacted impulisve, Jon keeps imagining Ned`s honorable face and the scene from the beginning of the book. It appears that no matter how wrong the thing is, and the fact he might die, he would die as a Stark.

5. I remember: Jon said sullenly. The North remembers. Jon remembersthe message of Old Bear, he remembers his vows and his family. The thing is that here Jon is symbol of the North, true Northern son. The ideals are never forgotten, days may pass, but North remembers. That`s one great prelude for Jon`s story in NW, and his entire story.

Ragnorak, again, very nice analysis. And this chapter gives us a lot to think about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ragnorak, well done again... As always, the Three muskeeteers give us a lot to think about.

My observations:

1. The moon. Wonderful catch about it. But, I would think of the moon as symbol that is strongly associated with wolves. Wolves like to howl to moon and some scientists think that in these nocturnal activities hides something more than a passtime. Basically, I would put it this way: The moon represents awakening of Stark direwolf in Jon, the return to his primal instincts, his wolf`s core. Under the moonlight, wolf runs to his pack. It is strong image that goes with what is happening in Jon`s head, and especially since his first thoughts are of Winterfell.

...

The big moon connection is with Sam though. It looks like his face, is round like the O he makes with his mouth, and it is the source of the light that projects his giant shadow. I don't really know what to make of that. Not that there isn't a moon/wolf connection in general but the initial symbolism is centered on Sam which is curious.

The Sam/Neville Longbottom connection is a good one. The two scenes are very much akin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big moon connection is with Sam though. It looks like his face, is round like the O he makes with his mouth, and it is the source of the light that projects his giant shadow. I don't really know what to make of that. Not that there isn't a moon/wolf connection in general but the initial symbolism is centered on Sam which is curious.

The Sam/Neville Longbottom connection is a good one. The two scenes are very much akin.

At the beginning, but then the moonlight is mentioned several times. Moonlight gave Jon the light to travel through the night down the Kingsroad, Ghost`s eyes glowed red on the moonlight, and lastly Mormont`s question: Was your moonlight ride so tiring? Of course, this could be nothing, just mere description, but the moonlight is something wolves associated with, and Jon`s loyalty to his family, is like awakening of wolf in him. Wolves like to run on moonlight, howl to the moon, play with snow during knights. Also it`s a full moon, so in a way, the return to his wolf personna aka Stark is something very common in the myths about werewolves... But, I do leave open space for being totally wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...