The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[butterbumps!]

Yes? I thought it was more something along the lines of calling him one of the rich assortment of derogatory names that we have for cowards: "He's afraid of you Chett. On the Sisters, we have a name for them like him." Warg doesn't really fit in that context that I can see.

On it's own, no, but that line comes just after Chett and Lark are tormenting Gilly about the wolf, threatening that it will eat her baby, and say this:

“You may be the Lord Commander’s pet, but you’re not the Lord Commander . . . and you wouldn’t talk so bloody bold without that monster of yours always about.”

“I’ll not fight a brother while we’re beyond the Wall,” Jon answered, his voice cooler than he felt. Lark got to one knee.

“He’s afraid of you, Chett. On the Sisters, we have a name for them like him.” “I know all the names. Save your breath.”

They were playing up the wolf business just prior, so in context, it seems Jon's relationship with his pet is what's being referred to.

EDIT: Great to see you back Butterbumps! :)

You too! I was thrilled when I came back and saw you posting again. Hope everything has been well.

@Sean F: you might be right about what Mormont thinks wrt the Others, though it seems a bit incredible that he truly hadn't put these things together. I agree with Lummel's comments about the breakdown of logic it seems is happening wrt Mormont's ranging just after that attack and other simultaneous "knowns."

[SeanF]

It would be rather like us encountering vampires, say. We'd insist there were no such thing, until the evidence became overwhelming.

[Fire Eater]

It would be rather like us encountering vampires, say. We'd insist there were no such thing, until the evidence became overwhelming.

You read Salem's Lot didn't you?

[butterbumps!]

Intermediary chapters between Jon III + IV

TYRION VI this is the chapter Tyrion poisons Cersei in order to answer Robb’s peace terms and hold court without her (full analysis here).

Most relevant to us is Alliser’s appeal in front of the Small Council. Mormont had sent Alliser to appeal to the Lannisters for aid to the Watch, thinking that Alliser’s noble status and haughtiness would make them more amenable to listen. Of course this backfires, as Tyrion dislikes the man, and refuses to listen to him immediately, forcing him to wait for an audience a few chapters back (Tyrion wishes Yoren was the brother sent). In the interim, the hand Alliser is supposed to show as evidence completely rots. The decay of the hand (which appears to have twitched until the end), gives some insight to the operation of wights.

Alliser does not come across well in this chapter, but to be fair, he was forced to wait so long that his nearly airtight proof of supernatural activity was ruined. Alliser is definitely a bit too big for his britches, here, but in the big picture, his impatience and insistence is completely justified.

This is one of those “what if” moments, as Tyrion’s thoughts about this matter suggest that if presented with evidence, the Watch may have received more attention from him:

Once the court and kingdom started to laugh at him, he was doomed. And yet . . . and yet . . .

Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he’d stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond. He had felt—what?—something, to be sure, a dread that had cut like that frigid northern

wind. A wolf had howled off in the night, and the sound had sent a shiver through him.

Don’t be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest, it meant nothing. And yet . . . He had come to have a liking for old Jeor Mormont during his time at Castle Black.

I don’t think that this passage functions as foreshadowing exactly, but I think it’s another intersection of Jon-Tyrion to keep on file for a future encounter.

BRAN IV

This chapter deserves a cursory mention for 2 reasons: 1. news of Hornwood-gate is given, in which Ramsay has captured and married Lady Hornwood after the Harvet Feast, and Manderly occupies her castle for “protection;” 2. We’re given information about warging and greensight.

Jon will have his first true warging experience 3 chapters ahead, so the “mechanics” of it described here are apropos, especially given that Bran will be directly involved in this event:

“You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it.” He had a slow soft way of speaking. “With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall.”

This chapter also includes Bran and Luwen discussing some Northern lore and information about magic/ old gods, which might be worth a read for those interested.

CAT IV

This is where Cat prays in the Sept after the peach meeting between Stannis and Renly, realizes Bran was a witness to incest, and Renly is killed by the shadow.

While looking at the faces, she sees various people she knows in them. The face of the Warrior conjures the image of Jon: “The Warrior was Renly and Stannis, Robb and Robert, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow. She even glimpsed Arya in those lines, just for an instant.” Her list is 4 kings, Jaime, who looks “every bit a king,” and Jon.

One last note from this chapter: when Renly is killed, he is struck by the sudden cold; in fact, “Cold” is his last word.

Apparently, dark shadows and white shadows (as the Others are sometimes called) alike are correlated with localized spots of extreme cold.

[butterbumps!]

JON IV

This is a particularly light chapter from a character perspective, but quite dense in terms of atmosphere, world-building and offering substance for crackpots and speculations.

It’s also a significant Jon-Ghost chapter. I put together a compendium of major Jon-Ghost moments for Mladen, which might be an appropriate tangent to attach here.

overview

The ranging party arrives at the Fist. Ghost repeatedly refuses to ascend, so they let him run off as they make their settlement within a ringfort at the summit. After another failed attempt to bring Ghost inside the stone ring wall, Jon finds high ground and spends a deal of time looking over the landscape.

Sam sees him, and happily confesses that he’s growing less afraid each day of the ranging. Ironically, he’s the only one emboldened by the mission. Jon leaves him to attend Mormont, who is holding a strategy meeting with the rangers. They leave, and Mormont explains his strategy to Jon.

Jon sits down to eat with his brothers, but leaves for bed when he sees Ghost beside him. Ghost gestures for Jon to follow, leading him down the Fist and through the forest, finally circling back to the Fist (one of the steeper sides). They dig to find a cache of dragonglass and an auroch’s horn wrapped in a Watchman’s cloak.

observations

• Ghost and the ravens react to the Fist and ringfort differently than the other animals, which do not appear particularly spooked.
  
• Mormont’s raven only repeats words he hears in this chapter, with the exception of “Corn:” Old, Corn, Corn, Dead, Dead (the raven freaks out shrilly at this last “Dead,” as Mormont is referring to the possibility of a wightified Benjen)
  
• There is a lengthy description of how Mormont takes his mulled wine: cinnamon, nutmeg, honey, dried berries, raisins, nuts, but no lemon, which is Southron “heresy”
  
• Interrupted meal: Jon sits down to eat with his brothers, but loses his appetite at the memory of the wight attack, and gives his share to Grenn.
  

analysis

Fist of the First Men

A lot of text is given to speculations about the Fist and description of it. There’s a dearth of fan art of this, and even fewer that are textually correct; to make this simple, I did a (super) quick birds-eye view of the Fist and ringfort based on its descriptions throughout the chapter.

In terms of history/ atmosphere, we learn that it’s the wildlings who call it “Fist of the First Men,” and that it was said that “the Fist had been a ringfort of the First Men in the Dawn Age.” For clarification, a “ringfort” isn’t actually a “fort,” or a military structure, but a political boundary, such as a seat of a king. Like other ringforts, the one at the Fist is short (it comes up to their torsos); it’s not meant to defend against attacks like castle walls, but rather to keep livestock from wandering away, so it’s a container of sorts.

Jon speculates that there may be some dark history to the place: “This is the haunted forest, he told himself. Maybe there are ghosts here, the spirits of the First Men. This was their place, once.” Sam seems to have a similar idea, as he asks Jon whether battles were fought here, to which Jon replies, “no doubt.”

Jon + Ghost: Stop making me climb this damn hill, Jon

On the initial ascent up the hill, Ghost refuses to climb three times, so Mormont tells Jon to just let Ghost run off. After settling everything at the summit, Jon descends to search for the wolf. Just off the Fist, Ghost comes to Jon immediately. In fact, Ghost’s sudden appearance is almost eerie; he just “appears” at Jon’s side, almost as if he had been waiting there. Jon leads him up the Fist; though Ghost will ascend this time, he balks frantically when they reach the walls of the ringfort:

But when they reached the ringfort, Ghost balked again. He padded forward warily to sniff at the gap in the stones, and then retreated, as if he did not like what he’d smelled. Jon tried to grab him by the scruff of his neck and haul him bodily inside the ring, no easy task; the wolf weighed as much as he did, and was stronger by far. “Ghost, what’s wrong with you?” It was not like him to be so unsettled. In the end Jon had to give it up. “As you will,” he told the wolf. “Go, hunt.” The red eyes watched him as he made his way back through the mossy stones.

Ghost’s eyes are watching Jon, as Jon goes into the circle, which means he’s standing still, clearly not in a rush to hunt or anything like that as rationale for his reluctance to enter. There seems to be something about the ring-wall particularly that bothers him.

Vantage points

After Ghost leaves, Jon spends a long time looking at the landscape from a high point within the ringfort. I’m linking to a map of the lands beyond the Wall, as this neatly summarizes the descriptions. I want to draw attention, however, to the way Jon describes the mountains as a “shadow” and the Haunted Forest as a “sea.” A reference to mountains as a “shadow” evokes the image of Asshai, which seems significant. The way Jon rhapsodizes about the forest-sea parallel also seems significant, as he extends this metaphor rather purposefully in his thoughts. One important observation is the smattering of wierwoods throughout the forest; this might be important later in the chapter when Ghost sends Jon on a wild goose chase into the forest and back to the Fist.

As Jon searches the vista, he realizes with some dread that anything could be creeping toward them under the canopy of trees. The Fist affords sight across great distances, but has this tremendous blind spot that renders it a rather unfortunate lookout. In truth, the Fist is less a lookout for its occupants than a visual fishbowl of its occupants, rendering the Watchmen visually vulnerable to anything in the area. Sensing this, Jon comforts himself by thinking the elevation of the Fist will give them a degree of protection when they are inevitably spotted by something.

Mormont’s Council

The rangers do not seem to be on the same page as Mormont exactly. They want to find the location of Mance’s men, and discuss ranging strategies to find the congregation. Mormont tells them that this is essentially unnecessary for the time being, as he believes Craster’s word that they are up in the Frostfangs. He tells the men that they plan to stay put and make a semi-permanent camp, and true rangings will commence only after Qhorin arrives. Mormont isn’t looking to hide from the wildlings, but to intercept them, giving battle if need be. The rangers leave, somewhat on edge and dissatisfied with the plan. Mormont leads Jon to realize that his plan is to be sitting ducks on the Fist, attracting Benjen live or dead, thereby confirming Jon’s observations about the Fist as a vantage.

As mentioned by Lummel, it’s not clear what Mormont’s exact purpose of the ranging is. He had clearly wanted to run into wildlings for the sake of sharing, based on his lamentation that there weren’t any wildlings to learn from in the Whitetree chapter, and in his offer to Craster of safety. He’s also seeking Benjen. Was he ever truly looking to battle Mance, or had he meant to ally with him? If an alliance is the purpose, is this why he insists on running into Mance’s gathering, but leads his men to believe that he’ll fight the wildlings, given their attitude toward wildlings as enemies? Was the Fist always his targeted located for this, and does that hold some further meaning?

Night Moves

A lot of atmosphere is built around the final part of the chapter. Around the campfire, Dywen tells them he smells “cold,” and others scoff at the idea. Jon doesn’t, however, remembering his wight fight, recalling that the cold “smells like death.” There’s no moon, only stars, and wolves start howling.

All of a sudden, Jon realizes that Ghost is by his side again, with burning eyes. Ghost is finally into the ringfort, but only for an instant, as he beckons Jon to follow him out and down the hill. Jon debates whether to follow, and after musing on the fact Ghost knows when the dead walk, as well as Dywen’s cold smell observations, he decides to go.

Ghost dashes down the hill, while Jon follows gingerly, reflecting on how crazy this is. Using sound to guide him, he makes his way toward the brook, where he finds Ghost drinking. Jon tries to call him, but Ghost stands there, eyes burning, looking fierce: “When the direwolf raised his head, his eyes glowed red and baleful, and water streamed down from his jaws like slaver. There was something fierce and terrible about him in that instant.” Ghost ignores Jon’s summons, running further and further into the forest away from the hill. Finally, Jon sees him run back toward the Fist, ending the chase at the foot of one of the steeper sides of the hill by a fallen tree.

At first, Jon believes the mound is a grave and expects a corpse, but begins thinking it’s “Treasure” when he feels the hard objects through the cloth. When he realizes the sound and feel is wrong for gold and coins, he dismisses the “treasure” notion. Between the dismissal of books as treasure and this dragonglass, which is a godsend, Jon sorely needs to rethink his definitions of treasure. He finds daggers, spearheads and arrowheads, along with a bronze-banded aurochs horn wrapped in an unfaded (i.e. very recent) Watchman’s cloak.

speculations: read at your own risk

What strikes me about this chase is Ghost’s behavior in relation to their positions. Ghost leads Jon on a wild goose chase into the woods, only to bring him back to an adjacent side of the Fist. All they needed to do was turn right when Jon got to the foot of the hill. There is some speculation that something causes interference with warging at the Fist, which might explain Ghost’s spooked behavior in the ring, as well as could explain why he needed to move away from there in order to complete some kind of directive (did he need to get instructions from a wierwood on something in the middle of that chase? I’m not entirely serious with that, but it is honestly really weird).

I’d also considered a second possibility. I’d wondered if Benjen was actually there (alive) at that moment. That is, I wondered if Benjen did in fact find the Watchmen’s camp, Ghost found him, made sure Ghost led Jon down the hill and was committed to follow, and buried the stash while Ghost led that goose chase as a distraction. This seems crackpot too, but would help explain the pointless chase through the forest. This would only work as a possibility if you think Benjen might have had a covert mission (which I do), otherwise, it makes no sense that Benjen wouldn’t join with the Watchmen or reveal himself at that point. Conversely, this scenario could work with someone other than Benjen doing the digging.

[redviper9]

<snip>

Excellent recap and analysis as always, bumps!

The discovery of the cloak and Ghost's behavior at the Fist -- including his leading Jon on a goose chase when there was a more direct path -- is always something that has struck me about this chapter. Ghost's balking at the ringfort is in many ways reminiscent of Grey Wind's reaction when Robb and his party arrived at the Twins for Edmure's wedding. The ranging party was not attacked with the same speed that Robb and his men were at the Twins, but we all know that things did not end well on the Fist. I've always thought of Ghost's reluctance as being triggered by an "echo" of past events at the Fist, plus a foreboding of what was to come. Going back to the Robb-Grey Wind comparison, it's also interesting to note that Jon at first disregards Ghost and enters the ringfort, showing that the bond between Jon and Ghost is still a developing one at this point.

As to the wild goose chase, I really don't have any good guesses as to why Ghost took that route. I have always believed however that Benjen and his party are somehow connected to dragonglass cache. It's specifically pointed out that the cloak shows little signs of aging, and his is one of the most recent -- if not the most recent -- ranging party to have gone missing (I recall it being mentioned in AGoT that all the search parties sent out from Castle Black and the Shadow Tower had returned).

Your analysis of the Fist of the First Men as a place that leaves the ranging party vulnerable to a certain degree also brings to mind Arya's experiences at High Heart in ASoS. Both High Heart and the Fist are locales strongly associated with Westeros's older history. The power of the Old Gods also runs strong in both: Jon notices weirwoods in the forest surrounding the Fist; Ghost -- who is associated with the Old Gods for much of the narrative -- senses something amiss; and though the Andals cut down the weirwoods of High Heart, the remaining stumps still hold a lot of power, a power that gives the Ghost of High Heart her visions and prevents Thoros of Myr from being able to read the flames. Unlike the Fist, though, High Heart doesn't have a vulnerable blind spot. Where Jon muses on how anything could be lurking in the woods surrounding them, Arya realizes that High Heart's vantage point means that no enemy can approach unseen, giving anyone on the hill time to mount a defense or beat a retreat. Not sure how this comparison sheds further light on Jon's arc, but it is interesting to note these parallels with one of the siblings Jon was closest to.

[Lady of Long Lake]

&ldquo;When the direwolf raised his head, his eyes glowed red and baleful, and water streamed down from his jaws like slaver. There was something fierce and terrible about him in that instant.&rdquo;

This description makes me wonder if Ghost was being warged by Bloodraven at that moment. Maybe the COTF and Bloodraven got the dragonglass weapons to The Fist so that Ghost could lead Jon to the cache. They were trying to help in the only way they could.

I don't understand the loop Ghost ran either. I know my own dog, a Great White Pyrenees, will guard me for hours when I'm in the garden. She will not leave her post EVER. If she gets hot or needs water, she yips high pitched sounds to let me know we need to head to the house. Ghost can't do that. I wonder if Ghost stood vigil outside the ring of stones for hours watching Jon? When he finally got Jon out of the ring, he may have had to drink from being thirsty for hours while he "guarded" him from afar.

But I love your idea of Benjen! That would work too:) I would be thrilled if the man was indeed alive. I'm very worried about him now that I'm paying attention to Mormont's raven. Jon says," but....what if..." and Mormont replies," he's dead?" and then the darn bird says," Dead" five times! He's never uttered any word more than four times ina row:( The fifth time he said the word he made it even louder.

JOn heard the ravens before he saw them. Some were calling his name. Same thing happened in Castle Black. It makes you wonder if someone is trying to communicate to Jon via the ravens.

Dywen once again in this chapter smells something evil in the wind. He did it in AGOT when Jon and Sam said their vows at the weirwood. He "misliked" the smell in the air. He did it again in this chapter when he smells the "cold". He's a very gifted sensory scout!

[Odon]

Rereading this scene, I can't see anything strange about Ghost's moments. The direwolf descends the Fist, goes to get a drink from a stream, then circles around the base of the Fist to where the cache is buried.

[butterbumps!]

Rereading this scene, I can't see anything strange about Ghost's moments. The direwolf descends the Fist, goes to get a drink from a stream, then circles around the base of the Fist to where the cache is buried.

No, he doesn't circle the base. He goes off into the forest for some time, away from the hill. So much time that Jon decides to head back, and is about to turn around when he sees Ghost off to his right, running back toward the Fist, and taking him "one quarter" of the way around from where he'd originally descended.

Every few feet he called again for Ghost, but the night wind was swirling amongst the trees and it drank the words. This is madness, he thought as he plunged deeper into the trees. He was about to turn back when he glimpsed a flash of white off ahead and to the right, back toward the hill. He jogged after it, cursing under his breath.

A quarter way around the Fist he chased the wolf before he lost him again. Finally he stopped to catch his breath amidst the scrub, thorns, and tumbled rocks at the base of the hill. Beyond the torchlight, the dark pressed close.

[Mladen]

No, he doesn't circle the base. He goes off into the forest for some time, away from the hill. So much time that Jon decides to head back, and is about to turn around when he sees Ghost off to his right, running back toward the Fist, and taking him "one quarter" of the way around from where he'd originally descended.

First, congrats on great analysis. I will be back with some more thoughts, but for now, about this. We talked about this on Animal thread, and I think that we can assume there is something there that made Ghost really scared... This is a moment that wonderfully oposes the moment when Ghost was 'lost' in Melisandre's hands. Something like he represents balance in Jon's life, like that earthly element of warging is making everything function perfectly.

You should really consider opening a thread about that moment...

Aand, btw, great drawing.... Nice touch.

[Onna Lewyys]

First of all, re Tyrion VI:

Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he'd stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond.

"Give my warm regards to Lord Mormont . . . and to Jon Snow as well."

I just have to say that I love this callback to my favorite scene in all of AGOT and to one of my favorite friendships in the series (even as brief as it was).

OK, on to Jon's chapter.

Ghost's behavior toward the ringfort makes me wonder what kinds of battles were fought there. I'm by no means an expert on Westerosi history, but I do know (from Bran's previous chapter) that when the First Men first arrived they warred with the Children of the Forest and cut down their weirwood trees. And as Ghost is a creature of the COTF and the Fist is a place of the FM, Ghost's wariness could stem from that ancient conflict. But then later, of course, the COTF and the FM forged an alliance and fought together against the Others, so Ghost could be feeling the echo of that war instead. And/or perhaps, as redviper9 suggested, he could feel that the NW is going to be attacked there in the near future the same way that Grey Wind seems to sense the danger at the Twins or that Ghost later senses the danger before Daggers in the Dark.

The wild goose chase, on the other hand, has never struck me as strange. I guess I attribute it to the fact that, even though Ghost is a vessel of the Old Gods, he's also a wild animal. But you could be right, butterbumps, he may have been receiving messages through the weirwood trees or something.

Other observations:

The Old Bear was too proud to admit weakness, but Jon was not deceived. The strain of keeping up with younger men was taking its toll.

Another example of Jon's role as watcher/observer, seeing the truths that people try to hide.

And I also like the little mentor moment between Jon and the Old Bear where Jon asks about the search for Benjen and instead of just giving Jon the answer, Mormont lets him figure out the plan on his own. That's a good teacher.

[redviper9]

Ghost's behavior toward the ringfort makes me wonder what kinds of battles were fought there. I'm by no means an expert on Westerosi history, but I do know (from Bran's previous chapter) that when the First Men first arrived they warred with the Children of the Forest and cut down their weirwood trees. And as Ghost is a creature of the COTF and the Fist is a place of the FM, Ghost's wariness could stem from that ancient conflict. But then later, of course, the COTF and the FM forged an alliance and fought together against the Others, so Ghost could be feeling the echo of that war instead. And/or perhaps, as redviper9 suggested, he could feel that the NW is going to be attacked there in the near future the same way that Grey Wind seems to sense the danger at the Twins or that Ghost later senses the danger before Daggers in the Dark.

It is entirely possible that the some of the conflicts that took place on or around the Fist were between the First Men and the Children of the Forest in the years before the signing of the Pact. However, what little we've learned of those battles seem to indicate that they mostly took place south of where the Wall was eventually raised. The CotF are purported to have brought the Hammer of the Waters down on Dorne and the Neck; the Pact was signed on the Isle of Faces in the Riverlands; with the exception of Hardhome (which of course ended in disaster), there is little to no evidence that there have ever been major human settlements north of the Last Hearth; and Bran learns when he arrives in the caves that the CotF were pushed further and further north as human settlers populated the lands further south.

Given that information and what we learn in this particular chapter, I think it far more likely that the conflicts on the Fist were between the First Men and the Others. As you note, the First Men and the CotF eventually banded together to fight the Others. Though Jon initially disregards Ghost, even he comes to feel disquieted by the Fist. Dywen smells the "cold" in the air, which could presage the return of the Others or also be an "echo" of their past presence there. And, as has been discussed in this thread and others, there are hints that the Night's Watch as an institution predates the raising of the Wall, so it's entirely possible that the Fist was an outpost of theirs.

[Lummel]

When first I read this chapter, aeons ago, before the arm of Dorne was broken and his lunch money stolen, I assumed that Benjen left the cache of Dragonglass. Now that Butterbumps has mentioned speculations I wonder if it wasn't possibly a tribute from the Children of the Forest as in the good old days when they gave a hundred pieces of dragonglass annually to the Night's Watch :dunno:

Anyhow what was I going to say before i distracted myself...oh yes, the landscape descriptions from Jon's POV are interesting:

The fist punches up

The mountain peaks are jagged, saw-toothed

"The forest seemed a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable...Anything could be moving under that sea...darkness began to creep through the forest"

"The trees stood beneath him, warriors armored in bark and leaf, deployed in their silent ranks awaiting the command to storm the hill...Branches clutched at his cloak, while overhead thick limbs twined together and shut out the stars".

There's a sense of the landscape being sentient and hostile, there were of course warriors armoured in leaf and bark - the children of the forest in the days of the wars of first men against them.

Furthermore Dywen smells the cold, the cold smells like death to Jon, the Fist is like a beacon hill announcing their presence to the North, Benjen might find them - as a wight!

It is oppressive, dangerous, sinister. Chances are if you've read this, you've read LOTR, perhaps you are reminded of Amon Sul/Weathertop and are already expecting an attack by fell forces! Well tough, you're going to have to wait until ASOS...

[Lyanna Stark]

I agree with Lummel that there is a sinister atmosphere. The hills are alive, but not with the Sound of Music. It feels more like Lovecraft's the Lurking Fear instead. And there's definitely something Lovecraftian about the forest as a sea where anything can dwell under the surface.

Sam is the aberration here as he's gradually getting more and more happy with managing better. I guess it all depends on your expectations? :) Jon perhaps hoped or expected to find Benjen, but Sam expected to be useless and murdered by terrifying wildlings, but instead manages to ride, to tend the ravens, to survive and even befriend the terrifying wildling Gilly.

Couple of other things:

- Dywen again comes off as a competent ranger compared to Thoren Smallwood (who still seems to think he can full Rykker's boots, but can't and comes across as conceited).

- Jon following Ghost made me have a brief flash of Kierkegaard (probably hyperbole, but still :P ) about making that leap of (/to) faith. Jon feels that he cannot explain why he has faith in Ghost's supernatural ability, thinking he has gone a bit bonkers himself, but even filled with doubt, he makes the decision to follow Ghost anyway since he remembers that Ghost found the wight.

-The dragonglass cache finding is definitely built up to make us think of Benjen. First because Jon thinks it's Benjen's corpse, but in the end, we are left to hope Benjen is alive since it may, possibly, just be his black cloak.

- The ravens screaming Jon's name. I assume it's "Snow" they are screaming, not "Jon Snow"?

-We have some "southron heresy" linking into the "southron fools" we meet in ADWD perhaps? (Is this the first outright snarky comment about "southron" customs and/or "fools" in Jon's chapter? )

[Lummel]

...Sam is the aberration here as he's gradually getting more and more happy with managing better. I guess it all depends on your expectations? :) Jon perhaps hoped or expected to find Benjen, but Sam expected to be useless and murdered by terrifying wildlings, but instead manages to ride, to tend the ravens, to survive and even befriend the terrifying wildling Gilly...

Perhaps the hills are alive with the sound of music, but the song isn't actually all that nice? Also putting lemon in mulled wine clearly is heresy, if not criminal. Orange - that's ok, but lemon is wrong.

Your comment about Sam got me to realising that Jon is the one who in AGOT has dreams of being the heroic ranger while Sam, well, very probably doesn't. Yet their paths cross. Jon comes back as the turncoat, Sam comes back as Sam the Slayer with the girl.

Ghost belongs in the kierkegaard, surely ;)

"Maybe there are ghosts here, the spirits of the First Men. This was their place, once" then

"...he's dead?...He may come to us anyway" finally

"Across the fire, a pair of red eyes regarded him from the shadows. The light of flames made them glow"

Nothing much to say except how odd it is having a character called ghost around all these dead people. Its unnatural.

Also "This was their place, once" - two things. The blood of the first men flows in the Starks (or so we're told) but this is isn't our place for Jon, it is their place. He excludes himself from a sense of kinship or relation to who ever dwelt upon or used the Fist in ancient times. Secondly "once" invites us to consider who the Fist belongs to now and where the first men are now. Are the Wildlings First Men as far as Jon is concerned? Are other modern Northerners like Mormont First Men in Jon's eyes. OK a good part of the Fist is in my opinion simply worldbuilding, but there is also I feel a significance in Jon feeling that it is alien when a Stark claim, manifested in Winterfell and the crypts, is to continuity of authority from those ancient times. Either way I suppose the Fist functions to given a feeling of a very ancient past, no doubt as dynamic as the ASOIAF present, just as JRRT used Weathertop in LOTR.

[Ragnorak]

Really nice discussion last chapter, everyone!

This is certainly a suspense building eerie chapter. Some speculation on the Fist...

We're told the Fist of the First Men dates back to the Dawn Age. That Age ended with the signing of The Pact which began the Age of Heroes so this location dates back to when the First Men and the CotF were at war. Looking at some of the information on the history of ringforts from the cheater's guide to research known as Wikipedia we have this:

As can be seen from the above text, the relationship between the banks of a ringfort and vassalage is quite clear. With the argument being that the more elaborate the ringfort, usually in the forms of multiple outlying banks, the higher the status of the occupant

This seems to be an important First Men settlement or at least a settlement of someone of importance at the time. Stark ancestor? Bolton ancestor? It is curious that Bloodraven and the Starks are the only wargs that seem to exist south of the Wall yet they are common enough to be generally known north of it. There were hundreds maybe thousands of kingdoms back then. Where did The Pact start? Who made the first peace with the CotF that spread to become a continent wide pact? Did this place have a role (positively or negatively) in that history? A political triangle of Others, CotF, and First Men would be a reasonable place for an alliance with the Children to start. It doesn't have to be a place with a modern lineage connection despite offering rich speculative material. It tells us that during the Dawn Age (12,000 to 10,000 years ago) there were First Men living North of what would become The Wall (around 8,000 years ago.) This offers some support for the Wildling notion that they are one people with the Starks and other Northern First Men before the Wall went up, but that can wait until Ygritte's tale to Jon later.

The only modern Watchman I can see leaving the cloak and obsidian is Benjen. Another possibility is Coldhands. Much later in Bran we'll see wights lying dormant in wait and I can't help but wonder if this might be the explanation for Ghost's behavior. Is Ghost taking Jon on such an indirect path because he's avoiding "sleeping" wights? If so that still doesn't explain his clear unease at the ringfort.

There seems to be a bit of an intentional Weathertop allusion as Lummel pointed out. In that tale Gandalf was also late in returning like Benjen and he battles the undead at Weathertop before they reach the place. Aragorn is a ranger who is a king in hiding which offers an interesting Jon contrast. Carrying the parallel further I suppose Bree is Craster's Keep (or maybe Tom Bombadil is Craster :lmao:) Benjen having battled the Others at the Fist and left the obsidian behind as a message is interesting from a Weathertop/Gandalf parallel perspective. The two wights they found may have been the rangers sent back with word after he discovered the Others. :dunno:

The forest as a sea makes me think of Dany and the Dothraki Sea.

There is also a wind, water, fire symbolism trend especially surrounding Ghost.

This place offers excellent natural protection from attack but seems to lack supernatural protection (as they'll eventually discover) as seems to exist at High Heart or the CotF cave Bran finds. Jon feels unease but no sense of power such as he felt from the weirwood in the village.

[Harlaw's Book]

IIRC the comet hasn't been mentioned for a while, but Jon makes note of it in this chapter. "The long red tail of Mormont's Torch burned as bright as the moon." I don't remember, but does any other character see it after this chapter, or is this the last time the comet is seen?

ETA: Ghost not directly leading Jon to the dragonglass seems to add to the theme that the obvious, direct route isn't always the right path to take. While it Jon a while to get to places, I think the time spent on the journey serves him well, especially compared to characters that move, whether toward a destination or a status, more quickly.

[Lummel]

IIRC the comet hasn't been mentioned for a while, but Jon makes note of it in this chapter. "The long red tail of Mormont's Torch burned as bright as the moon." I don't remember, but does any other character see it after this chapter, or is this the last time the comet is seen?

ETA: Ghost not directly leading Jon to the dragonglass seems to add to the theme that the obvious, direct route isn't always the right path to take. While it Jon a while to get to places, I think the time spent on the journey serves him well, especially compared to characters that move, whether toward a destination or a status, more quickly.

I don't know about the comet and we haven't really talked about it in this reread. I have a feeling that it fades out of ACOK's skies about midway through.

I like your journey is the destination idea about Ghost taking a roundabout route - there's a purpose and meaning in getting Jon to experience the forest.

...In that tale Gandalf was also late in returning like Benjen and he battles the undead at Weathertop before they reach the place. Aragorn is a ranger who is a king in hiding which offers an interesting Jon contrast. Carrying the parallel further I suppose Bree is Craster's Keep (or maybe Tom Bombadil is Craster :lmao:) Benjen having battled the Others at the Fist and left the obsidian behind as a message is interesting from a Weathertop/Gandalf parallel perspective. The two wights they found may have been the rangers sent back with word after he discovered the Others. :dunno:

Doesn't Gandalf leave a message at Weathertop? The cache of dragonglass wrapped in a Night Watchman's cloak is a message I suppose. I'm not sure if Craster is more Bombadil or Butterbur. Tricky. This business of dragonglass is something else that the Watch has forgotten.

The forest as a sea makes me think of Dany and the Dothraki Sea...

Hmm, yes, no safe habours, uncharted, free but dangerous.

[Ragnorak]

Doesn't Gandalf leave a message at Weathertop? The cache of dragonglass wrapped in a Night Watchman's cloak is a message I suppose. I'm not sure if Craster is more Bombadil or Butterbur. Tricky. This business of dragonglass is something else that the Watch has forgotten.

Yes. Gandalf leaves a rock with hash marks for the date iirc.

There are some interesting elements to consider with Weathertop as a parallel. Weathertop is a curious allusion in a series about Ice and Fire where Winter storms play a large role, the horn may be a lost artifact, the One Ring was forgotten by the "wise" much like the Watch has forgotten, Gandalf tried to lead the Riders away and made for Rivendell which could be a CotF outpost. In Bree they encounter Saruman's half orc spy which could be a Craster figure. Venturing into crackpot territory the half orcs fits well with Butterbump's Bolton/Others theory. LotR has its own history of First Men some of whom sought immortality through dark magic. The elves like the CotF came first and are fading from the world driven to small magical outposts. There's a similar world building feel with the ancient magical race, multiple Ages, ancient fortresses both in ruins and still standing like Orthanc and Storms End. The weirwood network is magically similar to the palantirs. The infighting with Saruman and selfishness of Denethor had to be resolved before uniting to fight the Big Evil.

I'm sure there's more going on in Martin's intent than just a hat tip to a hill, but I don't think we have enough to do anything more than speculate-- though it would certainly be interesting to revisit once we learn Benjen's fate. The reference does evoke the rich history of LotR, helps imply an epic nature to Jon's quest, reinforces the big bad evil feel to the Others, and also works as yet another Jon is a King in hiding allusion.

[Elba the Intoner]

Intermediary chapters between Jon III + IV [ BRAN IV 2. We’re given information about warging and greensight. Jon will have his first true warging experience 3 chapters ahead, so the “mechanics” of it described here are apropos, especially given that Bran will be directly involved in this event: This chapter also includes Bran and Luwen discussing some Northern lore and information about magic/ old gods, which might be worth a read for those interested.

Interesting that you used this particular quote about Bran seeing beyond objects with his third eye as an example of the mechanics of warging. I had a different take on that as being a quality more specific to greenseeing which I didn't think was the same as warging. Do most people think they are connected? I only ask because I never got the sense that Jojen was a warg. The dialogue that I found more descriptive of what a warg is for me is this:

"Do you fall every night, Bran?" Jojen asked quietly.

A low rumbling growl rose from Summer's throat, and there was no play in it. He stalked forward, all teeth and hot eyes. Meera stepped between the wolf and her brother, spear in hand. "Keep him back, Bran."

"Jojen is making him angry."

"It's your anger, Bran," her brother said. "Your fear."

"It isn't. I'm not a wolf." Yet he'd howled with them in the night, and tasted blood in his wolf dreams.

"Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran."