The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Fire Eater]

To add to the LOTR reference, the Hobbits find a cache of barrow-blades, daggers that could harm and kill the Nazgûl, which was in an area filled with wights. Merry later uses a barrow-blade to help kill the Witch-King of Angmar. Jon finds a cache of obsidian blades, which can harm and kill Others, beyond the Wall in a wight-filled area and gives an obsidian dagger to Sam that he later uses to kill an Other.

The Others do share some resemblance with the Nazgûl. The Nazgûl wield magical Morgul-blades that can make wraiths out of people who are stabbed by them. The Others wield magical ice swords, and can make wights out of the creatures they kill. Both Others and Nazgûl command wights, and neither can come out in daylight. Nazgûl hate the smell of the blood of living things while the Others reputedly hate anything with hot blood in its veins.

[butterbumps!]

Interesting that you used this particular quote about Bran seeing beyond objects with his third eye as an example of the mechanics of warging. I had a different take on that as being a quality more specific to greenseeing which I didn't think was the same as warging. Do most people think they are connected? I only ask because I never got the sense that Jojen was a warg. The dialogue that I found more descriptive of what a warg is for me is this:

Well, in Jon VII, Bran will visit Jon through Ghost, attempting to open Jon's eye to being able to warg. I thought the 3rd eye opening pertained more to greenseeing, but it seems requisite in controlling warg powers as well. I put that Bran chapter quote on file for when we look at this in more depth in that later Jon chapter; I'm not sure how connected they are right now, but I think 3rd eye business has something to do with warging as well. As we go forward, I'll be pulling warging information from Bran's other chapters in order to get to the bottom of this, lol.

IIRC the comet hasn't been mentioned for a while, but Jon makes note of it in this chapter. "The long red tail of Mormont's Torch burned as bright as the moon." I don't remember, but does any other character see it after this chapter, or is this the last time the comet is seen?

I was noting the comet in earlier Jon chapters; I'll keep my eye on it moving forward. If this is the final sighting of the comet, I wonder if there is any significance to that. In the first part of the chapter the comet is mentioned, and it's mentioned right before he talks to Mormont, but when Jon walks down the Fist to find Ghost at the end, the comet is omitted: "The night was moonless, but a thousand stars shone overhead." It almost disappears within this chapter, doesn't it?

[Mladen]

The Others do share some resemblance with the Nazgûl. The Nazgûl wield magical Morgul-blades that can make wraiths out of people who are stabbed by them. The Others wield magical ice swords, and can make wights out of the creatures they kill. Both Others and Nazgûl command wights, and neither can come out in daylight. Nazgûl hate smell of the blood of living things while the Others reputedly hate anything with hot blood in its veins.

Since butterbumps have a theory about Others being humans corrupted with ice magic (for more details, you know whom to ask), I compared Others with Orcs, being Elves corrupted with dark magic, but I like this analogy even more, especially with comparison of Morgul-blades and ice swords, and of course wights. This also would fit perfectly into butterbumps' great theory about corruption, being that Nazguls are corrupted by the rings they had/have.

Also, :bowdown: to Lummel's comparison to Weathertop...

[Julian Rayne]

Speaking of Weathertop, Amon Sul's strategic values was largely due to the fact that it housed a Palantir. Is this tied in to Ghost seeing something that the men cannot? Did the First Men have some kind of scrying device (like Bloodraven's throne) on the Fist and is Ghost benefiting from some residual farseeing magic?

Also "This was their place, once" - two things. The blood of the first men flows in the Starks (or so we're told) but this is isn't our place for Jon, it is their place. He excludes himself from a sense of kinship or relation to who ever dwelt upon or used the Fist in ancient times. Secondly "once" invites us to consider who the Fist belongs to now and where the first men are now. Are the Wildlings First Men as far as Jon is concerned? Are other modern Northerners like Mormont First Men in Jon's eyes. OK a good part of the Fist is in my opinion simply worldbuilding, but there is also I feel a significance in Jon feeling that it is alien when a Stark claim, manifested in Winterfell and the crypts, is to continuity of authority from those ancient times.

This made me realize that the Starks neither refer to themselves nor are referred to by others as First Men. It's always "the blood of the First Men flowing through [their] veins". As Lummel pointed out, their claim to rulership is based on their inheritence of the First Men's mantle, but they are not First Men. Now obviously their blood has been diluted and to a greater degree than the Northern smallfolk who rarely marry someone from a different village, but we hardly ever see any other Northerner, lord or peasant, claiming "blood of the First Men". The notable exception being their cadet Houses like the Karstarks. It's just the Starks and the Wildlings.

I suspect there may be something going on that's common knowledge in-universe but isn't apparent to the reader.

[Onna Lewyys]

Man, I never even thought about Weathertop. You guys are good.

Interesting that you used this particular quote about Bran seeing beyond objects with his third eye as an example of the mechanics of warging. I had a different take on that as being a quality more specific to greenseeing which I didn't think was the same as warging. Do most people think they are connected? I only ask because I never got the sense that Jojen was a warg.

I'm fairly certain that the third eye has to do with both warging and greenseeing. And I believe that warging is actually a prerequisite for greenseers, so it's like a square/rectangle type of thing: All greenseers are wargs, but not all wargs are greenseers. Which is why Jojen, despite his green dreams, is not and can never be a true greenseer and can teach Bran only so much.

[SeanF]

Since butterbumps have a theory about Others being humans corrupted with ice magic (for more details, you know whom to ask), I compared Others with Orcs, being Elves corrupted with dark magic, but I like this analogy even more, especially with comparison of Morgul-blades and ice swords, and of course wights. This also would fit perfectly into butterbumps' great theory about corruption, being that Nazguls are corrupted by the rings they had/have.

Also, :bowdown: to Lummel's comparison to Weathertop...

I think Martin compared the Others to the Sidhe in Celtic mythology. Beautiful, intelligent, and extremely dangerous to human beings.

[Lummel]

Speaking of Weathertop, Amon Sul's strategic values was largely due to the fact that it housed a Palantir. Is this tied in to Ghost seeing something that the men cannot? Did the First Men have some kind of scrying device (like Bloodraven's throne) on the Fist and is Ghost benefiting from some residual farseeing magic?

This made me realize that the Starks neither refer to themselves nor are referred to by others as First Men. It's always "the blood of the First Men flowing through [their] veins". As Lummel pointed out, their claim to rulership is based on their inheritence of the First Men's mantle, but they are not First Men. Now obviously their blood has been diluted and to a greater degree than the Northern smallfolk who rarely marry someone from a different village, but we hardly ever see any other Northerner, lord or peasant, claiming "blood of the First Men". The notable exception being their cadet Houses like the Karstarks. It's just the Starks and the Wildlings.

I suspect there may be something going on that's common knowledge in-universe but isn't apparent to the reader.

Weirwoods allow for remote data collection, as do trees generally, since the Fist is treeless it is perhaps an anti-weathertop in that regard :)

More on this first men/stark dichotomy in Jon V...

I think Martin compared the Others to the Sidhe in Celtic mythology. Beautiful, intelligent, and extremely dangerous to human beings.

I thought that was in relation to their appearance? I've searched the internet, but not well enough, since I haven't tracked down the source - I know it was GRRM to Tommy Patterson...

[Lummel]

Jon V ACOK

Overview

Short chapter. The Halfhand comes, sees and takes Jon away from the Fist of the First Men. Musings on how to deal with Mance. More on leadership, wargs and the Starks.

This chapter is preceded by Davos II (Melisandre births a shadow baby in a boat) and followed by Tyrion X (Varys brings news of Ser Courtney Pentrose's death and talks magic to Tyrion) so lots of magical goings on in these chapters.

Observations

• More animal comparisons to describe Mormont - “fit to whelp cubs”
  
• Sam's face “as pale and round as the moon” c/f Jon IX AGOT when the full moon peered over Sam's shoulder.
  
• Mirijam might approve of Jon taking in the sight of Qhorin Halfhand
  
• Qhorin recognises Jon as a stark, and knows he has a direwolf – word gets about on the Wall
  
• “Boiled water will suffice. And an egg and a bite of bacon” :laugh: Qhorin the aesthetic.
  
• Dolorous Edd! Many fine Eddisms
  
• Chett and co: “There's giants in the Frostfangs, and wargs, and worse things” - beyond the Wall is a place where legends and fairy tales are literally true. Beware grumpkins. :(
  
• Jon passing out the dragonglass “for luck” prescient of him ;)
  
• “We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defence of the realm?” c/f Tyrion I AGOT “Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities.”
  

Analysis

Wolves, sheep and goats

Interesting choices there in Smallwood's statement. Sheep and goats are hardly dangerous to men. If the Watch see themselves as wolves what does this say about their relationship to the realms of men? Preying on men is reminiscent of the pack like behaviour of the White Walkers towards the Royce boy in the AGOT prologue. Smallwood might aspire to separating the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-46) but he is not the one to accomplish this task. The goats remind me of the scapegoat – here taking the blame that really belongs to the White Walkers / Winter / arbitrary division imposed by the Wall (here maybe a brief digression on cold war politics in SF & F might be in order, or maybe not, a word to the wise and all that). Anyhow the mention of thralls among the Mance's host is a warning that the free folk may well be free but as we saw at Craster's some folk are more free than others.

Leadership

Mormont & Qhorin both give the same order – to feed the men and see to the horses. This efficiently sets up Qhorin as the equal in leadership style to Mormont. Qhorin's long look at Jon suggests that he is reading him and getting to know his men is as much a theme with Qhorin (as we shall see) as it is with Mormont in Jon IX AGOT. In contrast to Mormont and Qhorin, and this is also a pattern that will be repeated, the other officers are much more limited. Wythers and Smallwood don't pitch their ideas (run away vs run to fight) in a broader, strategic context. Qhorin does and Mormont agrees after only a couple of moments thought in contrast to the earlier indecision that began the chapter.

Strategy

Just very briefly but it struck me that the strategies discussed in this chapter are those which (understandably enough) come up again in ADWD. Retreat to the Wall, or fight north of it. Seal the gates with ice, reopen old forts. The same strategic problem in the background – the forts are ruinous and there isn't the manpower. Here the hope is the kings might and the Starks can be counted on to respond. By ADWD Jon knows he has to realise that same strategy with the resources he has to hand.

“The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men...and the Starks”

Well this is picking on on the point from the previous chapter. The second sentence is ambiguous for us. Are the Starks First Men or distinct from them in some way? Are the gods of the Starks and the First Men the same gods or different gods? Clearly there is knowledge that Mormont and Qhorin share that we, and possibly Jon, don't making the sentence gnomic.

The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. By implication then they are weak south of the Wall? Suggesting that the power of the gods is linked to certain locations – for example weirwoods or that there is something else that constricts the power of the gods. This is quite different from a conception of a divine being with unlimited power. This are gods whose power can be restrained by something and limited to certain areas.

But anyhow a little of the magical side of the story to tie Jon V to the chapters on either side of it.

[Julian Rayne]

Wasn't it explicitly stated by Osha that it's the lack of weirwoods south of the Neck that renders the Old gods powerless? Of course that's just her opinion, it's not like she's even been there. If so, it follows that the Old gods are stronger North of the Wall because of the higher concentration of weirwoods. Also from what we've learned of the nature of the Old gods, they are indeed limited. They have a finite amount of "manpower". It would be reasonable to assume that they're concentrating their resources where they'll be most effective against the Others, their field of battle is North of the Wall.

And you bring up a distinction between paganish gods who have certain human traits (like limits), and almighty Gods like the the theoretical R'hllor. Melissandre at least believes that he's omnipotent and without limits. The fact that her own abilities are so dependent on external factors, that they wax in "places of power", should give her a clue that he is not.

[DrunkSister]

Did somebody say my name?

A few hundred heroes...

We will see the word hero again in Varamyr POV, it just bugs me about wildling society that they never left the 'age of heroes'. But in Montenegro it was until recently (100 years or so) quite appropriate to refer to the man you are speaking to or even to yourself as 'hero' (and that is only the example I am aware of).

They are cold and afraid, we all are. It was hard waiting here, perched on the stony summit above the forest, wondering what the morrow might bring. The unseen enemy is always the most fearsome.

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served.

There is this connection between thinking of the enemy and drawing the obsidian knife. My theory is that he is subconsciously remembering the old stories but we don't see his thoughts.

He is totally carrying it around in his belt, too.

Jon's gaze: here again we have pov noticing details of posture, manner and looks that are absent from descriptions of other people. Qhorin is not described as classically beautiful but there is a lot of distinction in his looks and more importantly his manner.

By the by, Jaime, Qhorin, Styr and Satin are all clean-shaven, though Satin will grow a beard - connection?

(I may be having too much fun storming the castle...)

I think there is an important tidbit here in the fact that Qhorin is part of the old guard. He believes in old gods and he mentions sorcery just as a means to an end:

“How else? Sorcery.” Qhorin bit the egg in half. “Why else would Mance choose to gather his strength in the Frostfangs? Bleak and hard they are, and a long weary march from the Wall.”

“I’d hoped he chose the mountains to hide his muster from the eyes of my rangers.”

“Perhaps,” said Qhorin, finishing the egg, “but there is more, I think. He is seeking something in the high cold places. He is searching for something he needs.”

Here we see that Mormont knows what Qhorin is talking about (and we don't! what is the deal with cold high places? Bran Vras has a theory that due to the stony ground old gods couldn't reach the dead and plug them into ww net), just like rangers knew that corpses should be burned, but it had to be whispered and even then they didn't do it. WTH?

Is this to do with maesters or with septons, 'science' or faith?

***

Oh, and that is either a very small egg or Qhorin is talking with his mouth full. :dunno:

Something?” Mormont’s raven lifted its head and screamed.

For a moment Brynden sorely regretted becoming a tree because he could no longer hunt people down to shake some sense into them (though he did swear he will warg a critter and do something unpleasant to the perpetrators).

I would send fifteen men... To learn what waits in those mountains.”

“Waits,” the raven cried. “Waits.”

Is the raven saying wights instead? Waits has a as in end, while wights has an i as in marble (English spelling :bang: ) but it is a bird talking, how distinctive are the vowels? I don't think a bird can pronounce horn either, it is very complicated and lips are involved. I don't have a talking raven at hand to test this, though my aunt has a parakeet. Anyone a talking bird expert?

“Die,” the raven muttered, pacing along Mormont’s shoulders. “Die, die, die, die.”

I choose to read this as Bloodraven throwing a tantrum.

Indeed the raven will eat Mormont and Ghost will do Qhorin in.

Hey if Bran can talk to Ghost, why not Bloodraven ('Yep, go ahead, bite him, I'll tell you where the nice juicy corpses are if you bite him, gooood booooy').

He was questioned perhaps too sharply, and died with much unsaid.

Okaaay

I really like it how this chapter ends in the open, as dawn breaks, with promise of plot forwarding and 'great deeds' and the next, Tyrion chapter, starts in the confines of the Sept, in darkness with Lancel tattling on Cersei. Quite a mood whiplash.

Edit: In case anybody is thinking that Bloodraven and hysterical tantrums don't mix, just imagine that every time he is all calm when faced with frustrating events there is an 'eye' out there jumping up and down and stomping the ground in rage. Cause that is totally how I imagine him. :D

[Fire Eater]

Qhorin states that Mance is looking for some power that can bring the Wall down, which is later revealed to be the Horn of Joramun. Ironically, they don't know that they already have it, the horn Jon found and gave to Sam.

"True or false, the Wall must be warned," the Old Bear said as Jon placed the platter between them. "And the king."

Mormont says "the king" must be warned right after Jon is mentioned.

[Lummel]

Wasn't it explicitly stated by Osha that it's the lack of weirwoods south of the Neck that renders the Old gods powerless? Of course that's just her opinion, it's not like she's even been there. If so, it follows that the Old gods are stronger North of the Wall because of the higher concentration of weirwoods. Also from what we've learned of the nature of the Old gods, they are indeed limited. They have a finite amount of "manpower". It would be reasonable to assume that they're concentrating their resources where they'll be most effective against the Others, their field of battle is North of the Wall.

And you bring up a distinction between paganish gods who have certain human traits (like limits), and almighty Gods like the the theoretical R'hllor. Melissandre at least believes that he's omnipotent and without limits. The fact that her own abilities are so dependent on external factors, that they wax in "places of power", should give her a clue that he is not.

"They're sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the south. The weirwoods there were all cut down, thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?" Bran VI AGOT

So yes, although that raises its own questions, afterall from a Stannis perspective why worship a non-functional god? Rather thinking of the old gods as representing a religion might be looking at it the wrong way. Gods and men are both part of a complete system - the natural world, but then we have to square that with the long winters. Are they part of the natural cycle or are they an aberration. If they are an aberration then presumably restoring the natural world will be part of the ending of the series, if part of it then the conclusion of ASOIAF will be more about survival through adaptation I guess.

...A few hundred heroes...

We will see the word hero again in Varamyr POV, it just bugs me about wildling society that they never left the 'age of heroes'. But in Montenegro it was until recently (100 years or so) quite appropriate to refer to the man you are speaking to or even to yourself as 'hero' (and that is only the example I am aware of).

They are cold and afraid, we all are. It was hard waiting here, perched on the stony summit above the forest, wondering what the morrow might bring. The unseen enemy is always the most fearsome.

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served.

There is this connection between thinking of the enemy and drawing the obsidian knife. My theory is that he is subconsciously remembering the old stories but we don't see his thoughts.

He is totally carrying it around in his belt, too.

Jon's gaze: here again we have pov noticing details of posture, manner and looks that are absent from descriptions of other people. Qhorin is not described as classically beautiful but there is a lot of distinction in his looks and more importantly his manner.

By the by, Jaime, Qhorin, Styr and Satin are all clean-shaven, though Satin will grow a beard - connection?

(I may be having too much fun storming the castle...)

I think there is an important tidbit here in the fact that Qhorin is part of the old guard. He believes in old gods and he mentions sorcery just as a means to an end:

“How else? Sorcery.” Qhorin bit the egg in half. “Why else would Mance choose to gather his strength in the Frostfangs? Bleak and hard they are, and a long weary march from the Wall.”

“I’d hoped he chose the mountains to hide his muster from the eyes of my rangers.”

“Perhaps,” said Qhorin, finishing the egg, “but there is more, I think. He is seeking something in the high cold places. He is searching for something he needs.”

Here we see that Mormont knows what Qhorin is talking about (and we don't! what is the deal with cold high places? Bran Vras has a theory that due to the stony ground old gods couldn't reach the dead and plug them into ww net), just like rangers knew that corpses should be burned, but it had to be whispered and even then they didn't do it. WTH?

Is this to do with maesters or with septons, 'science' or faith?

***

Oh, and that is either a very small egg or Qhorin is talking with his mouth full. :dunno:

Something?” Mormont’s raven lifted its head and screamed.

For a moment Brynden sorely regretted becoming a tree because he could no longer hunt people down to shake some sense into them (though he did swear he will warg a critter and do something unpleasant to the perpetrators).

I would send fifteen men... To learn what waits in those mountains.”

“Waits,” the raven cried. “Waits.”

Is the raven saying wights instead? Waits has a as in end, while wights has an i as in marble (English spelling :bang: ) but it is a bird talking, how distinctive are the vowels? I don't think a bird can pronounce horn either, it is very complicated and lips are involved. I don't have a talking raven at hand to test this, though my aunt has a parakeet. Anyone a talking bird expert?...

why does it bug you that the wildlings are still in the age of heroes? Isn't their pre-state system part of the whole way in which north of the Wall is like a wildlife reserve artificially maintaining the conditions that existed throughout Westeros before the triumph of humanity over the children of the forest?

We get more of Qhorin's beliefs in the upcoming chapters but it ties back to what we've been saying with regard to the wights in AGOT and Craster, there are things that the Watch has forgotten and there are things that the rangers in particular know about but don't much talk about. As readers we are excluded from this knowledge (of course!) but it certainly helps to maintain an air of mystery - people know stuff and its so big and bad that it can't even be talked about!

Yes on the high treeless places - like the Eyrie too (although the frost and snow as Ragnorak says still work their magic there). Fist of the First Men is also such a treeless place too, surrounded by the enemy.

On Wights waits. Hmm, it would depend on how GRRM pronounces it I suppose. I pronounce wights rather like whites, waits with the same vowel as date or ate, but then I'm not a corvid :dunno:

..."True or false, the Wall must be warned," the Old Bear said as Jon placed the platter between them. "And the king."

Mormont says "the king" must be warned right after Jon is mentioned.

Nice detail :)

[DrunkSister]

About heroes,

I guess I am bugged that they are explicitly called heroes north of the wall. Was it like that in the south in the past? Quite likely! Unfortunately, wildlings have had the same amount of history as the 7 kingdoms so we can't compare their customs to see what First Men were like. Are these the 'knights before there were knights'!?

Though, they still have that oral component to history in the south, with bards praising people in songs and making songs on the spot to commemorate victories, they are not called heroes explicitly. They are called Queen Cersei and Lord Tywin.

And there is a neat little proverb that I can't source atm, it comes from Balkan tribes in XIX or XX century, but I can't remember what ethnicity:

Poor tribes don't have heroes.

What that means: they can't pay the bards, their courage goes unsung. lol

Wildlings have thralls, how many of those heroes are popular because they are rich or because they can afford better equipment-resources than their peers.

Sorry about any mistakes, haven't had my coffee yet.

[Ragnorak]

Nice summary, Lummel.

To expand a little on Fire Eater's king thoughts (and really nice catch on the Weathertop/Barrow Blades btw) the topic at hand is protecting the realm.

“Which king?”

“All of them. The true and the false alike. If they would claim the realm, let them defend it.”

Stannis will eventually be led to this realization by Davos with his cart before the horse epiphany. It is a call to those claiming to be king to act like a "true king." Jon is of course already engaged in protecting the realm. I think this is part of an interesting tie in with Sansa's storybook "true knights" that is being woven throughout the series. Despite the shattered illusion of the innocent storybook notions we see in all the Stark children's POVs (though most acutely in Sansa,) the horrors we see play out over the whole series are largely born or exacerbated by the failure of leaders to act like a "true king." It is subtle, but the supposedly shattered idealism of storybook knights is contrasted against the very pragmatic need for kings and lords to do their duty in a rather story-like fashion.

We get that contrast here between the Mormont/Halfhand leadership and the attitudes of Chett and company-- the contrast between selfishness and duty. The Watch leadership says that the Starks and Winterfell are their best hope and Chett is a leechman's son which makes him a bit of a Bolton stand in. The future is being laid out already. Jon is about to embark on a very storybook-like heroic adventure. If songs are eventually sung about his deeds they will undoubtedly fail to include his imminent being plagued by doubts over his vows or his conflicts over betraying wildlings he befriends and grows to respect. Still, he is about to experience a tale of heroics and love to rival any of Sansa's favorite songs. It will be Jon's acting like a "true knight" from the songs that will buy enough time for Stannis acting like a "true king" to save the Watch. The end result will be that the Watch (with the possible exception of Dorne) will be the only place in the realm where those who embrace the "true king" philosophy wield power. Duty as laid out by Halfhand vs. concern for one's own skin as expressed by Chett act as a metaphor for the conflict playing out across the realm.

The Halfhand seems to be the first clear impression we get of the ranger factions take on Jon. Smallwood has been the voice of the rangers since the wight attack and with Mormont's assessment, his symbolic inability to fill Ryker's boots, and his noble entitlement over merit attitude, he doesn't seem to represent the rank and file. Lummel pointed out that we're between to big sorcery chapters and the Halfhand explicitly mentions sorcery here. His positive take on Jon and the magical connection is pretty clear.

Jon knew Qhorin Halfhand the instant he saw him, though they had never met. The big ranger was half a legend in the Watch

You are Jon Snow. You have your father’s look.”

...

“Lord Rickard died before I was born.”

“He was a friend to the Watch.” Qhorin glanced behind. “It is said that a direwolf runs with you.”

“Tollett can care for you as well, my lord.” Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. “The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men… and the Starks.”

Qhorin seems to view Jon as a Stark. He mentions knowing Rickard and Eddard right after noting Jon has his father's look which has a subtle line of succession air to it. He mentions the Old Gods having power and that the Old Gods are the gods of the Starks as well. Eddard Stark's six children getting direwolves is clearly a tale that reached his ears and one that carries weight with him-- he asks about the wolf at their first meeting and again in the final line of the chapter. To him, Jon is clearly the sorcery on their side. Like Mormont at the end of GoT, Qhorin wants Jon and his wolf to come on this ranging. As the ideal and senior ranger, the Halfhand's views can be taken to reflect the ranger's in general at least to a degree. This is contrasted by Chett's entourage and their view on wargs:

“There’s giants in the Frostfangs, and wargs, and worse things,” said Lark the Sisterman.

Some parting thoughts on the dagger...

The unseen enemy is always the most fearsome.

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served. Dolorous Edd opined that glass knives were about as useful as nipples on a knight’s breastplate, but Jon was not so certain. The dragonglass blade was sharper than steel, albeit far more brittle.

The unseen dagger notion will come up again with Littlefinger and Sansa. I'm somewhat convinced that Littlefinger's interaction with Ned surrounding the other dagger was LF mocking the First Men tradition of justice. He looked Ned in the eyes and passed judgment on him before putting the dagger to his neck from behind. I suspect that First Men justice metaphor is continuing to play out throughout Sansa's story and will likely involve that dagger again in a fairly symbolic manner. Jon's dagger has an Old Gods wooden handle while the other dagger's hilt is dragonbone. Jon's blade is dragonglass while the other is dragonsteel. This dagger is ugly but serves which seems to reflect the Northern ideas on the trappings of power vs. the Southron ideals and also reflects the values of Aemon's raven vs. dove speech to Jon. Also the refashioning of the hilt has a bit of a Longclaw parallel. I can't help but wonder about possible Jon/Sansa implications surrounding these two daggers that are so connected to their stories.

[Lummel]

...He mentions the Old Gods having power and that the Old Gods are the gods of the Starks as well...

I don't think he does say that, although that is one interpretation that you could reach!

The true hero/knight/king point is a very good one - this brave deeds of derring do is a clear element in the next chapter, but here volunteering for a mission under the command of a man who is ready to die and who is prepared to throw the lives of fifteen men away just on the chance that they might return in a not undead condition could be described as suicidal. On the otherhand since Mormont's plan is apparently for the ranging force to fight to the death against the Wildlings I suppose death in the frostfangs at least has the promise of a change of scenery.

If the obsidian dagger is a hidden dagger, the White Walkers are also a hidden enemy at this stage.

Something I forgot to mention in the chapter post. The previous Jon chapter was full of the sense of the forest being alive with hostility, watching, judging, threatening while this chapter begins with that defused but a new danger snuck in as an adventure.

[Ragnorak]

I don't think he does say that, although that is one interpretation that you could reach!

I was focusing in on this

“Tollett can care for you as well, my lord.” Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. “The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men… and the Starks.”

and then connecting it to his interest in Jon's wolf and desire for Jon to come along with him that resembles Mormont's belief that Jon and his wolf were sent to them at the end of GoT. Next chapter we get a more explicit mention of the supernatural with a seemingly deferential reference to Benjen feeling the cold winds rising-- we're not there yet but this is foundation work for what is to come. I also took the Rickard, Eddard, Jon mention at their meeting, the Starks in Winterfell being their best hope, and this old gods Stark reference here as a consistent theme from the Halfhand.

If the obsidian dagger is a hidden dagger, the White Walkers are also a hidden enemy at this stage.

Something I forgot to mention in the chapter post. The previous Jon chapter was full of the sense of the forest being alive with hostility, watching, judging, threatening while this chapter begins with that defused but a new danger snuck in as an adventure.

Yes, the dagger would set LF up to be the hidden enemy parallel in the drama to the South (which he is as we learn from Lysa as she exits stage Moon Door at the conclusion of the next book.) I find this interesting in light of some musings I've been having about Jon and Sansa parallels. The Wall and the Iron Throne are sort of the two centers of gravity for our unfolding story. From a Stark Family Protagonist perspective this puts Jon at the center of one and Sansa at the center of the other both surrounded by dagger symbolism-- the obsidian daggers here, the daggers in the dark from Mel, the Ides of Marsh and Sansa with LF and The Ned dagger, Sansa bringing a knife to the godswood to meet Dontos, LF cutting the fruit with a knife in the pomegranate rejection scene.

The supernatural in the North and the supernatural across the sea are both to converge on the formerly "natural" human intrigue in Kings Landing. I wonder if the supernatural aspects in Sansa's arc are mirroring the emergence of the supernatural in Kings Landing as Jon's own supernatural self-awareness seems to be mirroring the emergence here in the North. But that begins to derail us... but I do find the dagger parallel interesting and would like to keep an eye on it as we go on.

The true hero/knight/king point is a very good one - this brave deeds of derring do is a clear element in the next chapter, but here volunteering for a mission under the command of a man who is ready to die and who is prepared to throw the lives of fifteen men away just on the chance that they might return in a not undead condition could be described as suicidal. On the otherhand since Mormont's plan is apparently for the ranging force to fight to the death against the Wildlings I suppose death in the frostfangs at least has the promise of a change of scenery.

On the true hero/knight/king front I think there's an underlying perseverance message developing-- each Stark POV has their own naïve belief in tales and is faced with their own flavor of despair to endure eventually living the songs that are initially shattered in disillusionment. The songs are essentially "true" they just have the misery, cowardice, and betrayal stripped out in the telling. We also have unsung heroes like Tyrion at the Blackwater or the many futile acts of courage that will take place on this very spot at the opening of next book and the folly of those like Quentyn who may well get a song in the end too. Unsung and failed heroes are in abundance as well which is quite true to life. The verisimilitude of those fruitlessly persevering also adds to the dramatic feel.

The Halfhand, this odd figure from the Shadow Tower, actually got me thinking about Varys and his shadow on the wall riddle. Qhorin's attitude is not unusual for a combat veteran career soldier. There have been men throughout history that have moved about the battlefield with an air of confidence indifferent to the hail of gunfire or arrows around them. In autobiographies or interviews their experiences are not dissimilar to an athlete describing being "in the zone" and what externally seems like courage (or folly) is really a matter of belief. A better military historian than I could recount long lists of individuals but one of the more famous such men was Stonewall Jackson from the American Civil War. From these quotes one can see a clear religious belief at the root of his suicidal heroism:

Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. Captain, that is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave.

Yesterday we fought a great battle and gained a great victory, for which all the glory is due to God alone. Although under a heavy fire for several continuous hours I received only one wound, the breaking of the longest finger of my left hand; but the doctor says the finger may be saved. It was broken about midway between the hand and knuckle, the ball passing on the side next to the forefinger. Had it struck the centre, I should have lost the finger. My horse was wounded, but not killed. Your coat got an ugly wound near the hip, but my servant, who is very handy, has so far repaired it that it doesn't show very much. My preservation was entirely due, as was the glorious victory, to our God, to whom be all the honor, praise, and glory. The battle was the hardest that I have ever been in, but not near so hot in its fire.

Often there is a near death or "certain death" experience in battle that helps foster or enhance this type of mindset. At the root is training and discipline and there is always a belief in the mission or the organization's purpose like we see here with the Watch. It is possible that his losing half a hand to an axe blade that by rights should have taken half his head and his life along with it was such an experience.

The Halfhand gives us both an example of Varys riddle where we see belief motivate men to engage in what is in all probability a suicidal mission as well as someone to juxtapose Tyrion's various struggles with obtaining loyalty from men. At this point in Clash Tyrion is still fixated on money as power though is beginning to realize the limits of gold. What we see here is more of Tyrion's later observation from Dance that "blood and steel" will keep men true. In some ways the Wall, Kings Landing and Meereen create a bit of a loyalty spectrum-- at least with gold. We rarely if ever see currency as a loyalty factor at the Wall. In KL LF claims that lords can be bought with "gold reasons" though they need to wrapped in pretenses, and in Slavers Bay they out and out deal in gold with slavery and slave soldiers being the extreme of bought loyalty.

[Lummel]

oh my point about what Qhorin says starks and old gods wise is that it is ambiguous. It suggests more questions. Are the Starks first men? Are the gods of the Starks the same as the gods of the first men? Why is he drawing out the Starks as distinct here?

The simple answer to my mind is that it another reference to warging, but that might be too simple :) . Once we're into warging and greenseeing then we are closer to being godlike, even eventually becoming part of the godhead in which case it would be wrong to say that the old gods are the gods of the starks - rather the starks are part of the divine - here I am imagining that there is a lot that the rangers talk about that is not known or explicitly acknowledged by the stark children POVs.

Qhorin could have expressed himself more precisely here but chooses not to, or something about the Starks strikes him midway through his sentence :dunno:

[Winterfellian]

@Lummel and Ragnorak, great posts as usual!

About heroes,

I guess I am bugged that they are explicitly called heroes north of the wall. Was it like that in the south in the past? Quite likely! Unfortunately, wildlings have had the same amount of history as the 7 kingdoms so we can't compare their customs to see what First Men were like. Are these the 'knights before there were knights'!?

And there is a neat little proverb that I can't source atm, it comes from Balkan tribes in XIX or XX century, but I can't remember what ethnicity:

Poor tribes don't have heroes.

What that means: they can't pay the bards, their courage goes unsung. lol

I actually think that the idea of the unsung hero applies more to the brothers of NW than the wildings. As we will learn soon, they clearly had bards like Bael in the past and songs that are part of their cultural heritage. The equivalent of a bard for the NW (Daeron) not only didn't sing any songs about the bravery of some of the men in it (even if he was expressly commanded to) but also deflected as soon as he got the chance. There's certainly a contrast between the Southern Bard that sings for gold (see Marillion or the Rains of Castamere) and the bards North of the Wall who live up and sing their own deeds just for the fun and liberty of it. Mormont tells Jon before departing to this ranging:

Singers will praise every little thing he (Robb) does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung

As Ragnorak points out, Jon is about to live out a tale that will be fit for Sansa's dreamy Knights' songs, yet very few of what transpired will get around later on. What about The Halfhand and the rest of the ranging party bravely offering the ultimate sacrifice in the name if duty? Or poor Sam's rescue of Gilly? Or even Yoren’s heroic death at the hands of Amory and his cronies that meant nothing to everybody, save those directly involved? No one sings songs of the deeds and the sacrifices of these men and yet they strike me more heroic than the adventures of someone like Lan the clever, explicitely associated with Westeros' age of heroes.

Personally am inclined to think no such songs will be made; or at least not south of the Wall, because of this:

It will be Jon's acting like a "true knight" from the songs that will buy enough time for Stannis acting like a "true king" to save the Watch

Unless we see a successful cultural merge, the focus will be on true Southern fashion on the King. In this case, Stannis. Else, it might be fun to see the focus on the "true King", Jon.

:uhoh: Apologies if I derail too far from the chapter. I will try to add someting more relevant later.

[butterbumps!]

Nice summary Lummel (and everyone's comments too).

I. Intermediary Plot

There aren't really any direct quotes pertinent to Jon I found in this set of intermediary chapters, but some of the plot between might be significant (for magic information, and potentially the GNC):

Bran V:

• Bran will experience "a dish he enjoys less than the Freys" (paraphrased), thereby confirming the veracity of Jojen's greendreams. Bran is now convinced.
  
• To get to the Wall and North, Osha tells them to follow the "Ice Dragon:" “The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye.”
  
• Jojen speaks directly about Bran's wolf dreams, informing him that if even his own people find out, some will "hate you. Some might even try to kill you."
  
• In Old Nan's stories, wargs and shapeshifters were "always evil."
  
• Rodrik kills "Ramsay," bringing "Reek" to the Winterfell prison.
  
• The fate of Lady Hornwood is now a matter of public knowledge. It's possible that Jon will have heard of this atrocity by DwD.
  

Catelyn V:

• Ned's bones arrive at Riverrun; Cat has Hal Mollen lead a team bringing them North
  

Davos II:

• Stannis says, "The day I need military counsel from a Lysene brigand is the day I put off my crown and take the black.” Potential foreshadowing?
  
• Mel and Davos debate the theology/ ethics of R'hllor, including Mel's assertion that shadow are servants of the light (they ride to Storm's End to unleashed another shadowbaby).
  

II. aCoK Atmosphere

I was remarking to Lum on the nature of Jon's chapters in aCoK broadly, and it occurred to me just how atmospheric Jon's story is at this point. More thoroughly and consistently, I believe, than during the other books. These chapters are also quite chilling, not unlike the sense of tension and dread that permeate Arya's adjacent Harrenhal chapters. It strikes me that the content of much of these chapters has very little to do with Jon directly, at least in terms of character growth and progression. Jon is almost more of an eye at this stage, giving us pieces of Mormont's plan (which is still nebulous), showing us the setting and mood, and offering us hints of the big mysteries beyond the Wall. Admittedly, Jon is about to make a significant decision in an upcoming chapter, but I'd wondered if these chapters felt less about Jon and more atmospheric to anyone else.

III. Winterfell's role

I know this has been touched on, but I want to underscore the fact that Winterfell is integral in NW business. I've participated in a number of "Jon's Vows" threads in my day, and the notion that Winterfell is key to the success of the Watch has solid textual support in this chapter. Additionally to Qhorin's remarks about Ned and Lord Rickard's having been "friends of the Watch," it seems that the cooperation between Winterfell and the Watch is more than merely customary: “These kings will do what they will,” he said, peeling away the shell. “Likely it will be little enough. The best hope is Winterfell. The Starks must rally the north.” Rallying the North, focused by Starks at Winterfell, is in Qhorin's mind, imperative.

IV. Qhorin

Qhorin's always been something of a mystery to me. Dywen has revealed himself to believe in rather mystical aspects of their surroundings (smelling the cold, he knows some history of North and the Fist), but Qhorin takes this to a whole new level. To be honest, Qhorin almost reminds me of an old gods equivalent of Damphair, in that they are rather ascetic (Qhorin even sits with posture like a bodhisattva), they are true believers in something supernatural, and they believe that they can use the supernatural in an actionable way in service to an impending disaster. I think this will become even more palpable in the upcoming chapters, where Qhorin behaves as though he's reading or intuiting some sort of magical script. How does Qhorin know what he knows? He's the closest thing we see to a character who makes sense of and interprets old god matters, and he strikes me as priestly or apostle-like in his commitment to the supernatural side of this.

V. First Men....and the Starks

Initially, I'd read this not as a true distinction between First Men and the Starks, but rather, a way to reinforce and remind them that they are one and the same, as a way to sell Jon's participation in the mission to have gods on their side.

If you break down the full quote, though, it looks like it could have a double meaning, so I agree with Lum that there's something more here potentially: “The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks.” I'm not certain the distinction is between First Men and Starks, that is, I'm not certain the focus is on the Starks are separate people from the First Men. It looks more to me like the distinction is a religious difference, that is, the Starks may follow a different set of old gods than the rest of the First Men.

[Elba the Intoner]

Sorry to back track from Butterbumps' post but did anyone else think of a Native American Indian chief when they read the description of Qhorin? He is clean shaven with long hair that he hangs in a braid, and later when he is sitting in Mormont's tent he is described as sitting cross legged (when I was a girl we referred to this way of sitting as Indian style) with his back held straight up. Given that Qhorin is a "crow" I thought this image and quote from Sitting Bull was appropriate.