The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Wisenan69]

Love these threads, I can't live without them.

@Lummel: I also read and have the Kindle version of Dunk and Egg stories.

[Winterfellian]

“The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord,” Mirri said. “Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back.”

I don't know if this relates to Jon but I thought this quote you brought up was really interesting. MMD refers to grave shadows that can be hold back by the light. Melissandre specifically tell Davos that shadows are children of the light.

@Winterfellian: I couldn't find them locally either and I got mine off amazon from America

Oh I Know. That's how I got my set of books in the first place. It's just that I was in no hurry to read the Dunk and Egg stories so I was just waiting for the books to come here and time has pretty much slipped by me :ohwell:

ETA-

What we learnt about Jon in this chapter is that he would betray NW for brother, but never for the King.

I really like how you phrase this. Robb the brother is not the same as King Robb.

[Isildur's Mane]

Butterbumps! great write up!

I read some of the chapters leading up to Jon I and found this in Arya I:

'"I did not!" she shouted. Jon Snow had given her Needle. Maybe she had to let them call her Lumpyhead, but she wasn't going to let them call Jon a theif.'

It made me think of later in the books when Jon is certain he didn't steal Ygritte. (Sorry, getting too far ahead, I know). But this seems to be something related to Jon that we should maybe keep a look out for?

(I know also that he's been accused of wanting his father's seat as well)

Jon I

I like the contrast we see with Jon and Sam and yet they seem to compliment each other so well.

Sam is at home in the library and could read all day. Jon feel out of place there.

Then we go to the yard and Jon is watching the progress of the new recruits closely and talking and taking an interest with them with Donal Noye. He seems at ease here, where as Sam is wincing at every blow.

I always loved the end of this chapter.

'Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. "And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?"

"What will you do?" Mormont asked. "Bastard as you are?"

"Be troubled," Jon said, "and keep my vows."

Sorry, i don't have much else to say as everyone has said everything. Great job guys :)

@Winterfellian: I waited what felt like years (I think it was only six months) and then I had to buy the Dunk and Egg stories. I need to read something set in the world of ASoIaF.

And I'm only relatively new to this series, only starting in 2011, just before the show came out. (Though I do know what it's like to wait for years for a series to finish, as I have been waiting for Obernewtyn Chronicles to finish since I started reading them in 2001)

Edit: minor spelling.

[Lummel]

... I am up to whatever you`re scheming. ;)

Ho, ho, that's what you think now!

Lummel's scheming something. Should I be worried? :worried:...

You are not already worried?

I have managed to find some of them online and have read them and intrigued by Lummel's scheming. :drunk:

...

About Jon Snow, has anyone mentioned Judges chapter 11 in regard to my favorite character? Just a theory I have.

Well at the moment I am simply doing some everyday scheming and gathering a little information. We are in no rush here and there are quite a few schemes and plots under consideration. Don't hold your breath this is more of a marathon than a sprint - we started our first re-read May last year and we are on our third now.

OK, tell us more about Judges 11! Do you think that Jon's story will follow a similar pattern?

...I will admit that I've wondered sometimes whether Mormont has any idea that Aemon is Jon's uncle; this is quite a long-winded history lesson for the point Mormont is making, and wildly apropos to more than Jon's and Aegon's condition of having kings for brothers...

It seems to me that there are not all that many lords in the North. All of them would know The Ned well by reputation if not in person and be aware of the differences between him and Brandon. I find it hard to imagine that the incongruity of The Ned having a bastard child hadn't occurred to them. So I'm of the opinion that Mormont suspects something that is best not put into words at this time.

...Note that the raven says "King" in Jon's presence right after Mormont said Jaime ended the line of Dragonkings, implying Jon is one...

I agree this is one of many significantly utterances by Mormont's raven.

...Since many of Mormont’s predictions for Robb didn’t come true, I wonder how right or wrong he will be about Jon’s future and how many of the things he predicted for Robb will happen to Jon.

"Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds go all unsung".

Seeing how singers forgot Tyrion's role at the battle of the Blackwater in favour of explain the role played by Renly's ghost I wouldn't be surprised it that part of the prediction if nothing else does come true.

[Julian Rayne]

I would like to talk about something that I haven't seen discussed before: I have noticed that Jon POV gives in some instances more space to evaluations of male beauty than of female beauty.

I've got a different take of that. I see it as Jon's immature ideas of women.

This is a fourteen year old boy who's been brought up on what his culture and other medieval-minded people refer to as "boy fiction". His world view is as warped as Sansa's, warped in the same fashion but in a different direction (it's the false distinction between dolls and action-figures all over again). His stories are full of macho, manly men doing martial, manly things and acting all manly and stuff. I doubt that the stories of the Young Dragon had any women in it.

He makes detailed observation of men because he thinks that they're important, they're dangerous, they're his role models or anti-role models, they're the world-shapers, it's their nature opinions that matter.

It's a sign of his growing maturity that he later starts realizing how significant and dangerous women can be.

ok, off topic question to all you bold posters and thoughtful lurkers! Have you read all three Dunk and Egg stories? When you post would you mind just mentioning if you've read all or some of them and if you have easy access to them in future? Naturally I am scheming something and would like to know ;)

Have read and still have access to all three.

[Winterfellian]

I've got a different take of that. I see it as Jon's immature ideas of women.

This is a fourteen year old boy who's been brought up on what his culture and other medieval-minded people refer to as "boy fiction". His world view is as warped as Sansa's, warped in the same fashion but in a different direction (it's the false distinction between dolls and action-figures all over again). His stories are full of macho, manly men doing martial, manly things and acting all manly and stuff. I doubt that the stories of the Young Dragon had any women in it.

He makes detailed observation of men because he thinks that they're important, they're dangerous, they're his role models or anti-role models, they're the world-shapers, it's their nature opinions that matter.

It's a sign of his growing maturity that he later starts realizing how significant and dangerous women can be.

I like your interpretation of this. It kind of reminds me of Jaime's description of his visit to Riverrun. The visit was scheduled so he could have the chance to admire Lysa but he only made of passing note of her and even Cat. Furthermore, he specifically mentions that he had eyes only for the Blackfish.

[DrunkSister]

I've got a different take of that. I see it as Jon's immature ideas of women.

Good theory. It explains why he evaluates the kings based on beauty.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Just a few thoughts regarding Martin's writing of Jon Snow and Judges chapter 11. The judge is named Japhthah the Gileadite and he was a valiant warrior, but he was the son of a harlot.

Sounds a lot like our Jon Snow and the perceived information regarding his mother and Ned.

Gilead Japhthah's father had sons and when they sons grew up they drove him out and said to him, " You shall not have an inheritance in our father's house, for you are the son of another woman. "

Granted this is not how the Stark children feel towards Jon, however we do have a moment when Rob tells Jon, " My mother said you can never be Lord of Winterfell. So George has tweeked this a bit I think and its mostly Catelyn who has the problem and concerns over Jon's future with her children. I wont' say more about this but there are many times when Jon thinks about Cat and she has over the years..gave him looks that say "Who are you, you do not belong here." The biggest issue is that Ned wanted Jon to be able to stay at WF when he left to go south but Catelyn would have none of it and Jon was sent to the Wall. I guess we could discuss whether Jon wanted to go the Wall or whether he asked Benjen about the wall because inside he felt unwanted and a crisis had come. His family was leaving and the Lady of WF did not want him there any longer.

Also this ties in a bit with Ghost and the other direwolves. It was Ghost who either left on his own or was driven out by the other direwolf pups.

So Jephtah fled from his brothers and lived in the land of Tob and worthless fellows gathered themselves about Jephthah, and they went out with him.

In Jon's case, the worthless men are the Night's Watch brothers who are sent by the realm due to various crimes, however they gather about Jon and he becomes their teacher and encourager and leader.

And it came about after a while that the sons of Ammon fought against Israel. (Boltons or Kingslanding or IronBorn against Winterfell, the north and her banner men.

And it happened when the sons of Ammon fought against Israel that the elders of Gilead went to get Jephthah, " For this reason we have now returned to you, that you may go with us and fight with the sons of Ammon and become head over all the inhabitants of Gilead.

If any of you have read the great northern conspiracy regarding Jon then the above verse makes perfect sense. :) But even Rob decided that Jon should be his heir after arguing with Catelyn about it and we are all still waiting to see if the will Rob had made will become known in the next book.

Jephthah said to the elders of Gilead, ( the north), " If you take me back to fight against the sons of Ammon and the L-rd gives them up to m, will I become your head?"

And the elders of Gilead said to Jephthah, "The L-rd is witness between us; surely we will do as you have said.

Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and chief over them; and Jephthah spoke all his words before the L-rd at Mizpah. I could see Jon praying at the god's wood and making a vow and keeping an oath.

To make this shorter, the text goes on to say that Jephthah and the sons of Ammon have messages between them and eventually Jephthah prevails agains them and also they do not follow the god of Israel..meaning they follow R'hollor, or another god other than the one the north folows. I find this interesting as I have always suspected that the Boltons are involved with some sort of magic or sacrifice other than the old gods that Jon follows.

Jephthah defeats the sons of Ammon but makes a vow to the L-rd that if he defeats the enemies he will give whomever or whatever comes out of the door of my house. Unfortunately its his only daughter. He has no one else. He is devastated but must keep his vow. His daughter agrees and in Judaism this is interpreted as she remains celibate the rest of her life.

I am not sure if this is Jon's future but there are remarkable similarities between Jon's story and Jephthah. I hope if GRRM is using this Bible story from Judges he tweeks it as I would like a happy ending for Jon .

Interesting note..in the previous judges story..judges chapter 10..its Ramsey Bolton..lol

[Mark Antony]

ok, off topic question to all you bold posters and thoughtful lurkers! Have you read all three Dunk and Egg stories? When you post would you mind just mentioning if you've read all or some of them and if you have easy access to them in future? Naturally I am scheming something and would like to know ;)

I have read them and have access to all three :)

JON I (aCoK)

Awesome post

[Melonica Stormborn]

ok, off topic question to all you bold posters and thoughtful lurkers! Have you read all three Dunk and Egg stories? When you post would you mind just mentioning if you've read all or some of them and if you have easy access to them in future? Naturally I am scheming something and would like to know ;)

Have not read them yet, but I have access to them. This scheme is intriguing. :pimp:

-

Anyway, I'm terribly behind the reread and ended up lurking instead of continually participating...which is as enjoyable, what with the great posts coming from bumps! and co. :D

[Lummel]

OK thank you for your Dunk and Egg feedback - keep it coming. I'm still scheming....

Jon II ACOK

Summary

This very short chapter opens in Whitetree. The ranging has been under way for some time and Whitetree is the fourth village explored, Jon speaks to Sam and Mormont.

This chapter is preceded by Daenerys being found by the three wise people in her desert city and followed by the Arya chapter in which the Night's Watch are trapped in the holdfast by the God's Eye and killed by Ser Amory Lorch and his merry men.

All these chapters involve searching, finding, being found and build up the sense of danger involved. The rangers might find Benjen...or they might be found by whoever got him earlier. The defeat of the Night's Watch in the Arya chapter will be repeated later in the Jon/Sam storyline at the Fist of the First Men.

Like the Red Waste the Haunted Forest is also a desert of sorts, abandoned by it's population just as the cities of the Red Waste are empty. All the villages the rangers have passed have been empty and the reasons for this mysterious and unclear at this stage of the story – it is a move designed to make us feel uneasy.

Observations

• Dolorous Edd!
  
• “Bad enough to know you're going to come to some awful end without thinking about it aforetime”
  
• Inconsistency or significance in the Rykker gear not being all black yet reused while The Mance had to give up his red patched cloak?
  
• Angry Chett looks worse under the weirlight
  
• Arya recollection
  
• Mood reversal – the rangers become more uneasy while Sam becomes steadier.
  
• We are warned - something is frightening away the people and the beasts “they will find us, thought Jon”
  

Analysis

Material Culture

The village consists of four unmortared stone and sod roofed huts. Like the places in the Arya Riverlands chapters the impression is of an abandoned landscape.

Spiritual culture

Two things here, the human skull in the tree touches on both “the bones remember” and placing the slavers guts on the weirwood in Davos IV ADWD. The weirwood introduced to us in Catelyn I AGOT was northern and sombre but associated with The Ned and therefore good if mysterious. GRRM is now twisting this concept. The “jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep” is sinister, is the skull an offering or a sacrifice (remember Bran's ADWD vision)? Jon guesses why the Wildlings burn their dead and we make that connection with him. Post ADWD we don't know why the skull and ashes are in the tree but it is a warning that we should in general feel uneasy and uneasy in particular about the mysterious religion that the Wildlings and northerners both share and whose worship and practises are unclear – even sinister. “Look at that face. Small wonder men feared them, when the first came to Westeros. I'd like to take an axe to the bloody thing myself.”

Secondly:

“My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.”

“My father believed the same,” said the old Bear.

This to my mind is one of the oddest exchanges in the series because of the way that the belief is alien and estranged from Jon Snow and Mormont and vested instead in their respective fathers. Yet of all the characters in the book we might have expected them both to be believers in the old gods. If they do believe their beliefs however don't conform to the mainstream custom.

I think this leaves us with the idea that Jon's religious identity is at the moment cultural and in opposition to the Southeron faith of Catelyn rather than personal and a felt experience.

A growing sense of unease

Our expectations for north of the Wall have been set by the prologue and the Wight attack in Jon VII AGOT. GRRM here is trying I think both to damp down our fears - there is no obvious danger, yet at the same time is giving teh distinct impression that there is something nasty out there. What is more because it is something that isn't immediately apparent, somethign that we can judge only by the absense of all other living creatures we can only imagine that this threatening presence is something big.

Here the three storylines of Daenerys, Arya and Jon echo each other - a band of people setting off into an unknown and potentially hostile environment. Arya's party is destroyed, Daenerys though has to face nothing worse than Xaro Xhoan Daxos' hospitality while the fate of Mormont's expedition is defered until ASOS. GRRM uses the multi-book and POV structure to both encourage us to anticipate what will happen but also to confuse our expectations.

[SeanF]

.

I am not sure if this is Jon's future but there are remarkable similarities between Jon's story and Jephthah. I hope if GRRM is using this Bible story from Judges he tweeks it as I would like a happy ending for Jon .

Interesting note..in the previous judges story..judges chapter 10..its Ramsey Bolton..lol

I hope then, we don't see Jon take a vow to slay the next living thing he meets, and it turns out to be Arya!

[Lady Arya's Song]

You know SeanF, I also think GRRM tweeks the stories for which I am truly glad. I wondered if the celibacy thing in regard to the person who comes out of the door..might be where GRRM tweeked it since Jon is celibate.

That is not my wish for Jon's future. I am romantic and would like Jon to have a wife and children.

The horror to me would be if Ghost was the loved one who had to pay a price. Let's hope GRRM does not go there. I would just cry a river if Jon had to slay any of the Stark siblings or ghost.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I only posted the Biblical story because I think Lummel asked me about it.

After thinking more on the chapter in Judges..it could be that its the Wildlings who fill the bill as sons of Ammon. I did not post the entire chapter in Judges but there is a back and forth exchange between the sons of Ammon and Israel about the past and perceived wrongs before they battle.

This is similar to the exchanges of past history of the Starks, the Night's Watch, the north and the Wildlings beyond the Wall..the raiding and back and forth battles of the past.

Jon is made the LC after the battle with the Wildlings which could fit with the Judges story and its Jon himself who " kills the boy". Part of himself plus the stabbing. Only time will tell if my musings are correct.

[Winterfellian]

Nice job as always Lummel!

Not much to contribute right now, except an observation:

“My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.”

“My father believed the same,” said the old Bear.

This to my mind is one of the oddest exchanges in the series because of the way that the belief is alien and estranged from Jon Snow and Mormont and vested instead in their respective fathers. Yet of all the characters in the book we might have expected them both to be believers in the old gods. If they do believe their beliefs however don't conform to the mainstream custom.

I think this leaves us with the idea that Jon's religious identity is at the moment cultural and in opposition to the Southeron faith of Catelyn rather than personal and a felt experience.

I agree with you, but I think this attitude towards Ned's belief is contrasted with what Jon perceives from the weirwood. While others are commenting about the size and the face Jon specifically points out that it is a powerful tree because he could feel it. None of the others commented about this comment am not mistaken. Am still unsure what to make of Jon feeling the power flowing from the tree. Did he felt ti because of himself or perhaps because there was something in the tree reaching out for him? Perhaps someone ccare to venture a guess.

Jon might be out of touch with the superstitions or beliefs involving the weirwood trees but he certainly seems to feel the "soul" of the matter. I'll try to add more later.

[Julian Rayne]

Maybe it's just his magical potential? He's somewhat unique in that he has both a medium-strong gift for warging and some Valyrian magic, assuming his dreams are prophetic and not just symbolic.

Maybe he's reacting to the magic of the Weirnet without knowing it?

[Fire Eater]

The village is known as Whitetree, a reference to the White Tree of Gondor, the sigil of Aragorn's house of Elendil. Aragorn was a ranger of the North, and so this could be taken as another hint to Jon's identity.

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire.

The inside is described as red and black, the colors of Jon's house as well as Drogon. From the description, one would have thought Jon was sticking his hand inside a dragon's mouth. The dragons are described as having developed a taste for mutton as well.

As to Lummel's observation of the similarities to the riverlands with the abandoned landscape, the inside of the weirwood's maw is filled with sheep bones in the ashes, indicating that the innocent sheep, the smallfolk, are the ones bearing the brunt of the war in the riverlands.

[Ragnorak]

Nice write up, Lummel. I like the connections you made with Arya and Dany.

The village is known as Whitetree, a reference to the White Tree of Gondor, the sigil of Aragorn's house of Elendil. Aragorn was a ranger of the North, and so this could be taken as another hint to Jon's identity.

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire.

The inside is described as red and black, the colors of Jon's house as well as Drogon. From the description, one would have thought Jon was sticking his hand inside a dragon's mouth. The dragons are described as having developed a taste for mutton as well.

As to Lummel's observation of the similarities to the riverlands with the abandoned landscape, the inside of the weirwood's maw is filled with sheep bones in the ashes, indicating that the innocent sheep, the smallfolk, are the ones bearing the brunt of the war in the riverlands.

Nice catch on the LotR reference as well as the rest. There is also the curious similarity between the wildlings and the Targaryens with burning their dead compared to the Starks who use the iron sword for the same effect--at least as far as the wildlings are concerned, the Targs just seem to have an unhealthy flame fetish.

Jon said, “My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.”

“My father believed the same,” said the Old Bear. “Let me have a look at that skull.”

Lummel pointed out the oddity of these two referring to their father's beliefs rather than their own. Fathers harkens back in time which fits with the awe at the age of this tree and also refers back to the old knowledge that has been forgotten. This is a double edged sword-- they need to relearn the lessons of their much older ancestors because their recent ancestors have failed in passing it down. Part of this musing about the legend I think is about not being sure of their fathers' wisdom given the walking dead that were supposed to be only a child's tale.

There are certain common elements in the various types of magic. Fire and ice magic seem to be able to raise the dead along with the blood magic of MMD. Flame gazing can see the past and the future which seems to be quite similar to what Bran learns about seeing through weirwoods. From Mel's POV in DwD:

Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

So there may be some element of truth to the lying in front of a heart tree tale.

The focus on the truth or lies is odd because they are looking for answers and not getting any-- truthful of otherwise. This is further reinforced by or favorite Edd with:

And who’s to say the bones wouldn’t lie? Why should death make a man truthful, or even clever? The dead are likely dull fellows, full of tedious complaints—the ground’s too cold, my gravestone should be larger, why does he get more worms than I do…”

To the best of my recollection we haven't seen bones or the dead with occasion to tell any tales so the focus on this here makes me wonder. It is at least somewhat connected to the GoT prologue.

“My mother told me that dead men sing no songs,” he put in.

“My wet nurse said the same thing, Will,” Royce replied. “Never believe anything you hear at a woman’s tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead.”

Off topic for Jon, but could this be a commentary meant to carry over into Dany's House of the Undying visit? I can't think of a Jon specific thing where this truth and lies from the dead would matter even cheating on the reread rules and skipping to the end of Dance.

Some final observations

As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew.

Jon flexed his fingers for the first time just before getting Longclaw which is very tied to family with the fatherhood meaning embodied in the sword as we've already covered. He flexes them again after almost running Sam down to ride off to meet Robb which is another family concern. Then he flexed them last chapter after Mormont asks him if he can wield Longclaw and right before the history lesson on Kings leading up to his question about keeping his vows with Robb as a King. This quote above where Jon's flexing his fingers as an expectation or preparation for combat or conflict originates. I had forgotten that mussing Arya's hair was intertwined with the origin of this meaningful gesture that will persist right up until his stabbing. I had also never realized that it had a family correlation before. I think this is something to look out for as we proceed to see if the pattern continues. I wonder if that finger flexing gesture will also work as a stand in for wanting to muss Arya's hair.

A bastard sword for a bastard, the men joked.

Is this the point that "bastard" ceases to be the cutting insult it has been for Jon?

[Lyanna Stark]

Weee, finally managed to catch up with you guys. Fabulous re-read so far. :)

Inconsistency or significance in the Rykker gear not being all black yet reused while The Mance had to give up his red patched cloak?.

It felt as if Smallwood was trying to fill Rykker's boots (well, clothes) but failing really, since he seems less capable than Rykker but seems to have rather high thoughts of himself.

(Also, Thoren Smallwood, which relation to the current Lord and Lady Smallwood? Lord Smallwood's tent was last seen by Arya outside the Twins at the Red Wedding, and his liege lord Vance bent the knee.)

The village is known as Whitetree, a reference to the White Tree of Gondor, the sigil of Aragorn's house of Elendil. Aragorn was a ranger of the North, and so this could be taken as another hint to Jon's identity.

While this is indeed possible and struck me as well, the name could also just be because well, there is a huge Weirwood, which is a White tree, and it's pretty eye catching since it's so large. /channels Lummel :P

You know SeanF, I also think GRRM tweeks the stories for which I am truly glad. I wondered if the celibacy thing in regard to the person who comes out of the door..might be where GRRM tweeked it since Jon is celibate. That is not my wish for Jon's future. I am romantic and would like Jon to have a wife and children. The horror to me would be if Ghost was the loved one who had to pay a price. Let's hope GRRM does not go there. I would just cry a river if Jon had to slay any of the Stark siblings or ghost.

Oh, I would have hope, if you will allow me to refer to something Mormont tells Jon in the first Jon ACOK chapter already, but it seemed nobody mentioned (perhaps because our Harsh Taskmaster Lummel frowns on too much foreshadowing and he's scared people witless with his hairshirts? :box: ). It's based on the theory that if someone says something and is sure as hell of it, the opposite is often true. In this chapter, we have the example of Sam teaching the birds to talk.

"Yes, my lord. Sam is teaching them to talk."

The Old Bear snorted. "He'll regret that. Damned things make a lot of noise, but they never say a thing worth hearing."

Which I think we can be fairly certain isn't at all true, since the raven says *a lot* of things worth hearing.

The exchange I am thinking of is in Jon I and it's Mormont speaking apropos Kings, ruling and serving the realm (again interesting in light of Stannis "I had the cart before the horse" speech later. A "true king" serves the realm?)

"A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colours, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed a beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon...and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

A couple of things stand out.

1. Eerily similar to MMD's prophecy about Dany and her not bearing a living child, no? (As it happens, she is also a princess, and I am now awaiting Apple Martining performing a Janos Slynt on me :P Although I don't think this necessarily points to Jonaerys, just that it's a similarity worth noting and that both these proclamations: that Dany is barren and that Jon will never hold a child of his own blood in his arms, are most likely wrong.)

2. Robb's fate became so very different. He never married a princess, wasn't draped in all that stuff, and when Walder Frey called him "Your Grace" it was not in the normally intended way, but as the King who lost the North and at Robb's own murder.

3. Live and die in black ringmail, as it happens, black was also Rhaegar's preferred colour when it came to armour. And he died with black armour on, (and I assume, with his black boots on too, like a true hero )

For more examples of these "the opposite is true" see Tyrion's comment on Jon "he had nothing of his mother in him" when in fact Jon's looks are very much his mother's.

[Winterfellian]

The forest and the travel before seem to have defied and layered up what Jon and the NW knew before the ranging. As Jon himself states Nothing was what he had expected. And nothing draws the line between expectations/reality and the known/unfamiliar more clearly than these Heart tree.

Before the departure Jon finds certain solace in the idea that his Gods will be waiting. Yet when he gazes at one of this Old Gods he is disturbed by its appearance, specially the mouth:

The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Does he, at this point appreciates and is ready to confront the fact that there is much he doesn’t know about his own religion? I think not. I know Ragnorak already offer an interpretation as to why Jon thinks of the legend, but I will also add that Jon’s disposition to bring out his father’s belief about the Heart trees seems to stem from a way of coping with his own unreadiness. Like everything else, the Old Gods are not what he expected to find so he finds a way to take what he is seeing (the disturbing Heart tree) to a place he understands- his father. Driving comfort or reassurance from his father’s memory is something we will see time and time again in Jon’s future chapters, whereas in AGOT thinking about him was often a source of conflict for him.

Going back to the tree, the presence of the bones inside the heart tree combined with the blood-looking sap certainly gives an interesting and more sinister take to the phrase “blood and bones like a heart tree” that Jon uses to describe Ghost later on. Both the bones and the Heart tree are vestigial remains (the heart trees being what remains behind when a singer or a greenseer passes away). They both “remember” but in totally different ways. The Heart trees do it through the weirwood network. The bones seem to remember in the form of wights. (Othor’s specifically sought out Mormont’s chamber).