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Robb's worst betrayals came from his aunt and his grandfather


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#1 The Frosted King

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:28 PM

Yes, it's true.
His aunt betrayed by not assisting in the war she had a hand in bringing about, may she burn in the hottest fires.
And his grandfather betrayed by not teaching Walder Frey an extremely sharp lesson for that debacle at the Trident.
Walder should've hung, and the king likely would've shrugged his shoulders in response.
Bannermen only go so far as they think they can get away with. Had he taught them the way of things fifteen years ago, their outright disobedience wouldn't have happened when Robb first pushed south.
Which then removes the forced negotiations and the onus of the RW.
Thoughts

#2 David Selig

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:33 PM

Does that mean Ned is to blame for Roose and Rickard's betrayals?

Every lord has ambitious bannermen ready to betray him if he seems weak, it's the nature of the system.

#3 Mr Bell

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:33 PM

You're blaming Hoster for not scolding the Freys over 15 years prior to them betraying Robb? Why should have have hung Walder Frey?

Should Robb have hung the Lords of Skagos for not sending men to the War of Five Kings? No, it's ridiculous.


As to Lysa, she chose her son over her nephew. Lysa was nuts, and was extremely overprotective of her son. I honestly don't really blame her. Sure he helped start the war, but she was nothing more than LF's catspaw in that situation.


Either way, I don't consider either to be a betrayal for Robb.

#4 WinterKing

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:34 PM

You're blaming Hoster for not scolding the Freys over 15 years prior to them betraying Robb? Why should have have hung Walder Frey?

Should Robb have hung the Lords of Skagos for not sending men to the War of Five Kings? No, it's ridiculous.


As to Lysa, she chose her son over her nephew. Lysa was nuts, and was extremely overprotective of her son. I honestly don't really blame her. Sure he helped start the war, but she was nothing more than LF's catspaw in that situation.


Either way, I don't consider either to be a betrayal for Robb.

This.

#5 Leif

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

At least they made the bad lady fly.

#6 thelittledragonthatcould

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:41 PM

Yes, it's true.
His aunt betrayed by not assisting in the war she had a hand in bringing about, may she burn in the hottest fires.
And his grandfather betrayed by not teaching Walder Frey an extremely sharp lesson for that debacle at the Trident.
Walder should've hung, and the king likely would've shrugged his shoulders in response.
Bannermen only go so far as they think they can get away with. Had he taught them the way of things fifteen years ago, their outright disobedience wouldn't have happened when Robb first pushed south.
Which then removes the forced negotiations and the onus of the RW.
Thoughts


So Hoster has to kill all the Riverland bannerman who thought for the Targs and the Lords he felt didn't pull their weight? That's Ryger, Darry, Goodbrook, Mooten and Frey at the very least. And how is it his call to make, if Robert forgives those who thought against him what right does Hoster have to go against this order.

Lyssa is mad as a hatter. However she saw Robb march into the Riverlands and be proclaimed King of the Trident, she had a right to worry that the same could of happened in the Vale with Robin losing his birthright.

The Srarks are not Gods. It is not a crime if a household decides to look out for their own best/selfish interests rather than what is best for the Starks.

#7 Ulrik1312

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

So Hoster has to kill all the Riverland bannerman who thought for the Targs and the Lords he felt didn't pull their weight? That's Ryger, Darry, Goodbrook, Mooten and Frey at the very least. And how is it his call to make, if Robert forgives those who thought against him what right does Hoster have to go against this order.

Lyssa is mad as a hatter. However she saw Robb march into the Riverlands and be proclaimed King of the Trident, she had a right to worry that the same could of happened in the Vale with Robin losing his birthright.

The Srarks are not Gods. It is not a crime if a household decides to look out for their own best/selfish interests rather than what is best for the Starks.


To add to the last two paragraph, the destruction of the Riverlands and the invasion of Winterfell reinforce what Lysa was thinking, better to not be involve.

#8 Yukle

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:49 PM

I actually take a different view of Lysa (well sort of, I agree that she's a loony).

Lysa's decision not to participate in the War of the Five Kings was the best thing for the Vale and for the Realm. When a King dies, there's not supposed to be a civil war of succession, there's supposed to be a smooth transition. If there is no king, it's not the end of the world and some priorities come first.

It wasn't Lysa's chief intention to ensure the Vale was well prepared for Winter, but that's nonetheless what has happened as a result of her decision not to participate in the war. Not only that, but with the Riverlands, Westerlands, North and Stormlands all losing huge parts of their crops, there is still a fertile area ready to provide food to the soon to be starving populace.

War as a means of solving politics is extraordinarily dangerous and the death toll is never worth the cause. Had every single ruler of every kingdom taken Lysa's stance on the war, there'd have been thousands of people living who would have otherwise died and the squabbling would've been confined to King's Landing.

#9 ckal

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:49 PM

Purposely refusing to assist your sister and her family in a war when you have the means to potentially turn the tides?


Sounds like a betrayal to me.

#10 The Frosted King

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:52 PM

Does that mean Ned is to blame for Roose and Rickard's betrayals?

Every lord has ambitious bannermen ready to betray him if he seems weak, it's the nature of the system.


Roose toed the line until the writing was on the wall.
He came when summoned, promptly. Twice. The same for the Karstarks.Twice.
Walder Frey didn't come once, and he did it again years later.
If he'd swung from a rope, it's likely Ser Stevron would've been promptly available and without haggling.
And Lysa sat and watched her family burn.
It's because of the Starks that she's even the lady of the Vale.
As a second daughter, her natural lot would've been a Bracken or Mallister.



#11 Golden Hand

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

This.

Purposely refusing to assist your sister and her family in a war when you have the means to potentially turn the tides?


Sounds like a betrayal to me.

I guess they forgot lysa also lying to her sister about her husbands death.

#12 The Frosted King

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:56 PM

So Hoster has to kill all the Riverland bannerman who thought for the Targs and the Lords he felt didn't pull their weight? That's Ryger, Darry, Goodbrook, Mooten and Frey at the very least. And how is it his call to make, if Robert forgives those who thought against him what right does Hoster have to go against this order.

Lyssa is mad as a hatter. However she saw Robb march into the Riverlands and be proclaimed King of the Trident, she had a right to worry that the same could of happened in the Vale with Robin losing his birthright.

The Srarks are not Gods. It is not a crime if a household decides to look out for their own best/selfish interests rather than what is best for the Starks.


The Starks aren't gods, true.
But as long as the Tully's rule well and the Freys prosper under their rule, they better reciprocate the honor.
Ask what Tywin would do should his bannermen ignore the call to arms.

And if the Freys fought for the dragon, fine. You made a choice and followed it through. They did nothing of the sort though. They just sat pretty and honored nothing. Not liege nor king.
Hang him high.

Edited by The Frosted King, 04 June 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#13 Lion of Judah

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:02 PM

Hoster never had cause to check Walder Frey and Lysa had her own schemes in the works; Robb's best interest did not factor in.

#14 booknerd2

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:10 PM

I hear you dude. I have been on that rant before.

Frey is so upset with Robb about broken promises, enough to plan the Red Wedding.

But it was okay that he is like the worst banner man and shows up late for Hoster. I had been waiting when I first read the series for someone to stick Walder's nose in that that, for my own satisfaction.

But really, Rob and Cat needed to cross and to make the alliance. They weren't going to say crap about that. Not that it would have done any good, but I would have felt great. LOL!

#15 The Sullen Sellsword

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

Robb betrayed his aunt and his grandfather when he entered a dangerous war without their consent and expected both of them to back him up.

It works both ways.

#16 mindchap

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:12 PM

Cat was Robb's worst betrayal. That's all there is to it.

#17 The Frosted King

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:12 PM

Hoster never had cause to check Walder Frey and Lysa had her own schemes in the works; Robb's best interest did not factor in.

Hoster did have cause. Walder showed up at the end of the battle of the trident.
All he got for it was a nickname, when it should've been a noose.
Lysa is the only house leader who worked against her family, other than Cersei. That should say it all.

#18 The Frosted King

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

Robb betrayed his aunt and his grandfather when he entered a dangerous war without their consent and expected both of them to back him up.

It works both ways.


Every time i see your avatar, i expect to read something off. And then i read, and realize i've got the gift of prophecy.

He entered into a war to save his grandfather and uncle. As well as his father.

What the dick flick are you talking about?
The thing about family is that it's naturally assumed they'd back each other up.
Hate to be your blood in a fist fight.

#19 booknerd2

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:18 PM

And the sad part is that Hoster probably decided that to cause an issue with the Freys, really, there are so many of them and they have many resources, would have been bad for him too. If you demote, punish, whatever, a banner, and weaken them, what about other enemies that wish to take you down.

So the old man Frey got away with it. A pass and it was overlooked, but nobody forgot of course.

Hoster probably held his tongue for self-preservation and to keep the status quo. There was enough going on in Westeros at the time.

#20 Lord of Beyond the Wall

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:19 PM

I blame Robb for betraying Walder Frey and his own kingdom when he choose lust over duty.