Robb's worst betrayals came from his aunt and his grandfather

[no_payne_no_gain]

IMO, Lysa and Hoster's actions did not cause Robb's downfall, but if either of them had done something, the situation would have been different.

[Sullen]

Every time i see your avatar, i expect to read something off. And then i read, and realize i've got the gift of prophecy.

He entered into a war to save his grandfather and uncle. As well as his father.

What the dick flick are you talking about?

The thing about family is that it's naturally assumed they'd back each other up.

Hate to be your blood in a fist fight.

When a decision is as major as "I am now King in the North (your King, actually) and I am declaring war against half the Realm", no, you are not automatically supposed to back him up. Your nephew just fucked himself over and put in serious jeopardy his kingdom, expeting you to do the same is selfish and short-sighted.

Especially so if you only saw him a few times in your lifetime.

There are some things you can't ask from someone, even from family.

[Lion of Judah]

Hoster did have cause. Walder showed up at the end of the battle of the trident.

All he got for it was a nickname, when it should've been a noose.

Lysa is the only house leader who worked against her family, other than Cersei. That should say it all.

I don't think tardiness is cause to get hanged, but Hoster should have done something to penalize Walder's lack of support.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The thing about family is that it's naturally assumed they'd back each other up.

Hate to be your blood in a fist fight.

Didn't Robb execute Karstark?

This is a world that most of the Houses are distantly intermarried, so at times you will have to put your own interests first.

[The Frosted King]

I blame Robb for betraying Walder Frey and his own kingdom when he choose lust over duty.

Keep that thought beyond the wall.

He'd never be in position to betray Walder if Frey wasn't such a bad bannerman.

And he should've made Walder swing to cow and weaken house Frey.

Walder dies, the house tears itself apart with infighting.

Hoster can finally step in and throw his weight behind a Frey more to his liking.

[MasterJack]

When a decision is as major as "I am now King in the North and I am declaring war against half the Realm", no, you are not automatically supposed to back him up.

Especially so if you only saw him a few times in your lifetime.

There are some things you can't ask, even from family.

This. She is crazy but was wise to stay away from the war. Why would anyone other from the Northmen want to follow someone who crowned himself King In the North? The Riverland did it cause they were already attacked by the Lannister before Robb ever showed up.

[The Frosted King]

When a decision is as major as "I am now King in the North (your King, actually) and I am declaring war against half the Realm", no, you are not automatically supposed to back him up. Your nephew just fucked himself over and put in serious jeopardy his kingdom, expeting you to do the same is selfish and short-sighted.

Especially so if you only saw him a few times in your lifetime.

There are some things you can't ask from someone, even from family.

There's nothing you can't ask of family. They're the only one you've got.

The thing that bothers me most, is that if the Vale were under attack, rather than the riverlands, the Starks and Tully's would both march to her aid.

And she should know that.

And she should know that if they fall, her son is weaker without his big cousin Robb Stark and his uncle Edmure Tully in positions that enable them to throw major power his way.

[MasterJack]

There's nothing you can't ask of family. They're the only one you've got.

The thing that bothers me most, is that if the Vale were under attack, rather than the riverlands, the Starks and Tully's would both march to her aid.

And she should know that.

And she should know that if they fall, her son is weaker without his big cousin Robb Stark and his uncle Edmure Tully in positions that enable them to throw major power his way.

But she isnt attacked because she stayed away from war and decided to be neutral.

[yolkboy]

Is this a Walder Frey apologists thread? C'mon, Lysa, Cat, Hoster etc as Robb's worst betrayal, pfft.

[The Frosted King]

This. She is crazy but was wise to stay away from the war. Why would anyone other from the Northmen want to follow someone who crowned himself King In the North? The Riverland did it cause they were already attacked by the Lannister before Robb ever showed up.

Because she hates and fears the Lannisters, and they've got a stranglehold on the middle realm.

Why not pledge to family, to get away from those she fears?

[juanml82]

If Robb had asked the Skagosi to send him troops and they refused, yes, once everything was said and done, Robb had to raise a fleet, cross the Bay of Seals into Skagos and behead the Skagosi lords.

Had Hoster Tully wanted to make a point to Walder Frey, he would be in trouble as he was forgiving houses which openly sided with the Targaryen. What he actually should have done was to erect a second bridge and give it to whatever House he wanted to reward for their actions during Robert's Rebellion.

Lysa Tully did what she did because of love. As a side effect, it benefited the people of the Vale. Had her intention was to help his brother, she should have called her banners and sent aid to the Riverlands as soon as Tywin called his (in a side note, Robb should have done the same). And then, threaten to withdraw her support if Robb insisted in declaring independence. And, actually, such actions would have been a tremendous stabilizing factor. Even more, if she acted sane and threatened Tywin to kill Tyrion if he didn't call back his banners when he was threatening her brother and homeland. Lysa was, however, anything but sane.

[Booknerd2]

Yes, Hoster should have done something. Frey is a weasel. They all are. He pushed to see what he could get away with, and if the line was toed earlier, it might have put him in his place a bit.

Actually, Hoster should have thrown it in his face anytime he wanted something from him.

A part of me thinks that Frey, really, having someone throw it at him and being pretty much called a coward to his face, might have hauled ass a bit more in future to save face.

He is the type that will only get away with as much as you let him.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

There's nothing you can't ask of family. They're the only one you've got.

The thing that bothers me most, is that if the Vale were under attack, rather than the riverlands, the Starks and Tully's would both march to her aid.

And she should know that.

And she should know that if they fall, her son is weaker without his big cousin Robb Stark and his uncle Edmure Tully in positions that enable them to throw major power his way.

My sentiments exactly. I think a healthy case of the Golden Rule applies.

[MasterJack]

Because she hates and fears the Lannisters, and they've got a stranglehold on the middle realm.

Why not pledge to family, to get away from those she fears?

I fear the lions, i just stay away from them.

[greywind93]

There's nothing you can't ask of family. They're the only one you've got.

The thing that bothers me most, is that if the Vale were under attack, rather than the riverlands, the Starks and Tully's would both march to her aid.

And she should know that.

And she should know that if they fall, her son is weaker without his big cousin Robb Stark and his uncle Edmure Tully in positions that enable them to throw major power his way.

agree

[thelittledragonthatcould]

There's nothing you can't ask of family. They're the only one you've got.

The thing that bothers me most, is that if the Vale were under attack, rather than the riverlands, the Starks and Tully's would both march to her aid.

And she should know that.

And she should know that if they fall, her son is weaker without his big cousin Robb Stark and his uncle Edmure Tully in positions that enable them to throw major power his way.

It's not as simple as that. She's taking a huge gamble on her sons Kingdom, and possibly life. It's not like the Starks or Tullys couldn't of backed down and kept their positions. Robb choose not to bend the knee when others suggested it and all looked lost.

[Ulrik1312]

I don't think tardiness is cause to get hanged, but Hoster should have done something to penalize Walder's lack of support.

I believe he didn't retaliate the Freys because the Riverlands were a political mess, having half of your lords supporting your enemies and attacking a house in a time of transition wouldn't be a smart choice.

For the punishment, refusing the marriage proporsal could with Edmure could count for it. Knowing that Hoster was eager to marry him (like the Blackfish), may be doing this was a form of punishment. Probably not but it is the only thing I could think of.

Another point, the political stability in the Vale was at risk: A lot of lords were waiting a chance to improve their stations. Sending troops to the Riverlands weakens her power base in the Vale.

Since Lysa was not married, anyone can pull off a Hornwood and kill her and use her son as a puppet (lets not bring up that is excatly what is happening).

And the clans of the MOuntains were savaging the roads, without the military forces they might start to destroy every village and reducing the harvest considerable (more because the farmers were away fighting) and the fertil areas in the Vale are not that big . On top of that, supplying or retreaing the troops would become a problem, because the acces to the Vale is just one gate, so if an enemy block that pass they could be trap (like Tywin did at the start of the war).

I really hope I make any sense and apologize my bad english.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes, it's true.

His aunt betrayed by not assisting in the war she had a hand in bringing about, may she burn in the hottest fires.

And his grandfather betrayed by not teaching Walder Frey an extremely sharp lesson for that debacle at the Trident.

Walder should've hung, and the king likely would've shrugged his shoulders in response.

Bannermen only go so far as they think they can get away with. Had he taught them the way of things fifteen years ago, their outright disobedience wouldn't have happened when Robb first pushed south.

Which then removes the forced negotiations and the onus of the RW.

Thoughts

Excellent stuff, as usual Frosted King. As long as you leave off the author this thread has my endorsement.

Blaming Hoster is wrong though ...

Cat was Robb's worst betrayal. That's all there is to it.

:bs:

[MasterJack]

Back to Walder, he was already 75/80yo during robert rebellion, why retaliate the Frey when the Lord will probably die tomorrow. Who would have thought that old monster would outlive em all :P

[Lion of Judah]

I believe he didn't retaliate the Freys because the Riverlands were a political mess, having half of your lords supporting your enemies and attacking a house in a time of transition wouldn't be a smart choice.

For the punishment, refusing the marriage proporsal could with Edmure could count for it. Knowing that Hoster was eager to marry him (like the Blackfish), may be doing this was a form of punishment. Probably not but it is the only thing I could think of.

Another point, the political stability in the Vale was at risk: A lot of lords were waiting a chance to improve their stations. Sending troops to the Riverlands weakens her power base in the Vale.

Since Lysa was not married, anyone can pull off a Hornwood and kill her and use her son as a puppet (lets not bring up that is excatly what is happening).

And the clans of the MOuntains were savaging the roads, without the military forces they might start to destroy every village and reducing the harvest considerable (more because the farmers were away fighting) and the fertil areas in the Vale are not that big . On top of that, supplying or retreaing the troops would become a problem, because the acces to the Vale is just one gate, so if an enemy block that pass they could be trap (like Tywin did at the start of the war).

I really hope I make any sense and apologize my bad english.

You make perfect sense and I agree.