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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1


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#1 Ran

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 01:18 PM

From Kedlav:

The chapter starts off a bit differently than normal, namely that we get Jon warging in Ghost beneath the wall. Ghost notes that the pack is scattered, that Lady and Grey Wind are dead, that his brother is nearby. He wanders a bit, then 'the moon' starts screeching Snow. 'Course, the moon is none other than the Old Bear's raven(who wants for a name IMO), and then we get a *wonderful* Dolorous Edd bit about roast raven and prunes. Its really, really friggin funny. Jon decides he can't wait for breakfast, that he has to deal with Stannis. He notes that Stannis is in the Old Bear's quarters and that he's in Donal Noye's old rooms(and that Noye's left little behind in this world).

On the way over to Stannis, he goes into some thought about the wildling pens, Stannis and the Queen's Men, etc. He also notes he hates having bodyguards, and refuses to let them follow him around. While walking, he is approached and challenged by some rather large chap who's thinking that Jon's not well suited to Longaxe[sic] and that they should fight. Jon gives him a nice brush off, but it highlights the dynamic of how the men in black and the idiots with Stannis are getting along. Jon finally shows up to see Stannis, and they get into it pretty good. Stannis rails about the North and only the Karstarks coming to him, about how some 10-year old Mormont girl recognizes his cause is lost and that he's an ass, etc. He then rails at Jon for not signing a grant giving Stannis all the abandoned castles on the wall to reward his loyal followers.

Its revealed here Jon's granted Stannis the Nightfort and that Yarwick thinks it will take 6 months to renovate. In response, Jon tells Stannis to make his men serve under men of the Night's Watch, and Stannis flips again, drawing Lightbringer and threatening to make someone the 999th LC, on the grounds that Thorne and Slynt are quetioning the vote. Jon hits the non-present Slynt with a good jibe about his honor and worth. Jon doesn't buckle, and he leaves. Melisandre tags along, wearing her usual red bit while Jon's freezing his cajones off in woolens. She flirts with him a bit, lets the proverbial axe drop that he's in all her visions in the fires now, that he needs to watch his back, and then the chapter ends with the old favorite of 'You know nothing, Jon Snow,' from Melisandre.

------------

From Trey_Greyjoy:


One of the key things I took away from the reading was the end. Melisandre walked Jon out of the audience chamber after his conversation with Stannis. She told him how she saw him in flames often and more frequently as of late. The last words of the chapter were her's as well: "You know nothing Jon Snow". Which pretty much sent a shiver up my spine.
She also said something to the effect that though Rhllor is omniscient his servants are not...something along those lines that could be interpreted as she is open to the idea that Stannis may not be the right man.....

Stannis is pretty much set on burning Mance, even with Jon arguing logically against it by stating the wildings would only follow Mance and not the baby. Stannis means for there to be only one King of Westeros and that Mance's life if forfeit. Stannis means to use Mance's child as a tool to control Mance's army as the child, in his mind, is the rightful "heir". Jon explains the folly of this notion to Stannis but he does not listen.

Sam has not been sent away, but Jon tells Stannis that he means to send Craster's daughter/wife (Gilly?) away from the wall.

Stannis wants the castles along the wall to give to his Lords to repay them for their loyalty, but Jon refuses to relinquish control of them. Stannis tells him if they are not populated by the end of the year he will take them with or without Jon's blessing.

#2 urizen

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 03:44 PM

From Kedlav:

On the way over to Stannis, he goes into some thought about the wildling pens, Stannis and the Queen's Men, etc. He also notes he hates having bodyguards, and refuses to let them follow him around. While walking, he is approached and challenged by some rather large chap who's thinking that Jon's not well suited to Longaxe[sic] and that they should fight. Jon gives him a nice brush off, but it highlights the dynamic of how the men in black and the idiots with Stannis are getting along. Jon finally shows up to see Stannis, and they get into it pretty good. Stannis rails about the North and only the Karstarks coming to him, about how some 10-year old Mormont girl recognizes his cause is lost and that he's an ass, etc. He then rails at Jon for not signing a grant giving Stannis all the abandoned castles on the wall to reward his loyal followers.

Stannis is pretty much set on burning Mance, even with Jon arguing logically against it by stating the wildings would only follow Mance and not the baby. Stannis means for there to be only one King of Westeros and that Mance's life if forfeit. Stannis means to use Mance's child as a tool to control Mance's army as the child, in his mind, is the rightful "heir". Jon explains the folly of this notion to Stannis but he does not listen.


I wonder why the Karstarks sides with Stannis?
Who's this Mormont girl? the Heir to Bear Island with Dacy dead at the RW?
Stannis admitting that he's an ass?? wonders of wonder
Is any of Stannis loyal followers mentioned? only Queens men?
this Heir scheme seems similar to marrying off Val to some northern guy. I wonder what'll happen with that one. Jon obviously has the right of it. guys like Rattleshirt and the Weeper wont respect and listen to anybody unless they are outnumbered and cornered. The only resonably decent guy left with some importance is Tormund and he escaped the battle back into the Haunted Forrest.

#3 The Scabbard Of the Morning

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 04:37 PM

I think the Karstarks, being the closest relative to the Starks, thinks they should be the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, and since the Lannisters have given the North to Bolton the only way they can get it is from supporting a different King.

#4 kedlav

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 05:38 PM

I wonder why the Karstarks sides with Stannis?


Karstarks have betrayed the Starks, North, etc. and have tried to kill Lannisters. No one is forgetting that, according to the chapter. Thus, they have a choice between Stannis and taking off some skin to appease Bolton.

Who's this Mormont girl? the Heir to Bear Island with Dacy dead at the RW?


Jon says there are other children of the Mormonts, and that it took him a while to recognize who she is. Stannis, Jon, and the rest of us are just as confused, and George wasn't forthcoming.

Stannis admitting that he's an ass?? wonders of wonder


Sorry, should have read more as the Mormont girl almost but not quite coming out and calling him an ass.

Is any of Stannis loyal followers mentioned? only Queens men?


Not specifically. Davos gets a mention when Stannis objects to placing his men under the command of commoners wearing the black, as Davos is both lowborn and Hand of the King. That's really about it. This big knight guy threatening Jon isn't clarified as either IIRC, though he reeks of Queen's Men to me(personal thing, definately NOT stated).

this Heir scheme seems similar to marrying off Val to some northern guy. I wonder what'll happen with that one. Jon obviously has the right of it. guys like Rattleshirt and the Weeper wont respect and listen to anybody unless they are outnumbered and cornered. The only resonably decent guy left with some importance is Tormund and he escaped the battle back into the Haunted Forrest.


Melisandre, Stannis, Jon, etc. are all trying to track down Tormund. Jon realizes the wildlings won't follow Mance's baby, but Stannis being the utter law-abiding fool that he is, thinks they will. He even thinks he can marry Val to Wyman Manderly and that she won't kill the tub o' lard before the vows are spoken. Stannis is seriously dumb-as-could-be in this chapter, and (PERSONAL OPINION) it seems to me Melisandre's starting to realize she's got her cart hooked to the wrong horse(though I'm not saying Jon's the right one, just Stannis is the wrong).

#5 Jughead of the Round

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 12:00 AM

This big knight guy threatening Jon isn't clarified as either IIRC, though he reeks of Queen's Men to me(personal thing, definately NOT stated).


I think this may be Ser Godry Farring, aka the Giantslayer, who slew a giant, or giants, in the fight with Mance. He's mentioned in Jon II, and in the appendix of AFFC. He's a queen's man. Just a guess who this is though. But he must be dangerous as he has a nickname like Giantslayer.

Jon decides he can't wait for breakfast, that he has to deal with Stannis.


I wonder what's so urgent. Perhaps asking Stannis to spare Mance? Or something Jon dreamed about?

He also notes he hates having bodyguards, and refuses to let them follow him around.


I wonder who Jon has acting as his bodyguards, and if it's a designated post to guard the LC. I know Dolorous Edd is described as his bodyguard in Jon II. This parallels Barristan guarding Dany: two old guys guarding, though Barristan doesn't seem quite as melancholic as Edd.

Jon gives him a nice brush off, but it highlights the dynamic of how the men in black and the idiots with Stannis are getting along.


I wonder what Jon said to him. This may be another reason why Jon is training with Longclaw in Sam's chapter. He wants to be ready just in case pust comes to shove.

He wanders a bit, then 'the moon' starts screeching Snow. 'Course, the moon is none other than the Old Bear's raven(who wants for a name IMO)


This can be seen as the raven calling Jon out of his warg dream much like Jojen did with Bran when he was warging in Summer. More evidence that this raven is more than meets than eye. I imagine whoever Bran is off to see has eyes inside the Night's Watch... this raven seems like the best bet. Where did it come from? It's probably been around for some time.

Davos gets a mention when Stannis objects to placing his men under the command of commoners wearing the black, as Davos is both lowborn and Hand of the King.


Did Davos get mentioned positively or negatively? Did Jon mention him or Stannis? I could see Jon saying 'well, your Hand is lowborn. what's the harm in having my men in charge of yours?' Boy, I can't wait for Jon and Davos to meet.

#6 kedlav

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 02:07 AM

I think this may be Ser Godry Farring, aka the Giantslayer, who slew a giant, or giants, in the fight with Mance. He's mentioned in Jon II, and in the appendix of AFFC. He's a queen's man. Just a guess who this is though. But he must be dangerous as he has a nickname like Giantslayer.


Yea, that's him. Couldn't remember his name, but it rings a bell and he gained notoreity for slaying a giant.

I wonder what's so urgent. Perhaps asking Stannis to spare Mance? Or something Jon dreamed about?


Stannis is a prickly bastard, and Jon hasn't signed his letter.

I wonder who Jon has acting as his bodyguards, and if it's a designated post to guard the LC.


It seems like Edd is acting as Jon's personal steward, much in the same role Jon used to play for the Old Bear. The guards were unnamed.

Did Davos get mentioned positively or negatively? Did Jon mention him or Stannis? I could see Jon saying 'well, your Hand is lowborn. what's the harm in having my men in charge of yours?' Boy, I can't wait for Jon and Davos to meet.


George read Jon stating it as a fact, not as an insult. Jon was the one who brought him up, and that's pretty much what Jon said. Agreed, I'd like to see that meeting, but Davos was not at Castle Black afaik during the chapter.

#7 Summer

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 03:09 AM

This can be seen as the raven calling Jon out of his warg dream much like Jojen did with Bran when he was warging in Summer. More evidence that this raven is more than meets than eye. I imagine whoever Bran is off to see has eyes inside the Night's Watch... this raven seems like the best bet. Where did it come from? It's probably been around for some time.



Interesting idea...
Cold Hands seemed to be able to warg into ravens so that's were the link might reside...


There is a thread on Mormonts' Crow in the general boards that might help...

#8 kedlav

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 03:29 AM

While I don't believe this idea at all, I'll try to state all I recall of the raven. In the dream, the raven's calls are associated with the moon. He wakes Jon up, and this pisses Jon off. Jon wants the cook to make some roast raven for breakfast, alas, breakfast is already made, and the raven goes away. I think Jon notes twice that the bird is either old, or that the Old Bear had it for a while.

#9 urizen

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 03:31 AM

Karstarks have betrayed the Starks, North, etc. and have tried to kill Lannisters. No one is forgetting that, according to the chapter. Thus, they have a choice between Stannis and taking off some skin to appease Bolton.

He even thinks he can marry Val to Wyman Manderly and that she won't kill the tub o' lard before the vows are spoken. Stannis is seriously dumb-as-could-be in this chapter, and (PERSONAL OPINION) it seems to me Melisandre's starting to realize she's got her cart hooked to the wrong horse(though I'm not saying Jon's the right one, just Stannis is the wrong).


the north has fallen in with the Boltons then?
This Arnolf guy pretty much hitched his wagon to the only avalible train?Is Harrion Karstark mentioned, Rickards oldest son? the guy has the worst luck, two Battles, twice captured.

"He even thinks he can marry Val to Wyman Manderly " So thats what Davos mission is when he goes to White Harbor.

Me, I think Mel's well aware of the fact that Stannis is not AA but he was the easiest person(the only?) with importance to ride to power.

#10 Harry the Heir

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 09:23 AM

Brief comments:

We may have inadvertent proof that Wyman played Cersei false w/r/t Davos. According to Aurane Waters, the offer was your swords and your silver in return for "well, nothing;" but if Stannis is offering Val to Wyman (a hilarious idea, incidentally), then it's noteworthy that Wyman didn't pass this along.

Melisandre has maintained before that she cannot always interpret the will of R'hllor correctly. This new statement of hers doesn't seem to be any different.

Is there more to this chapter, btw? Because this seems a lot shorter than the others we've had summarized.

#11 Xanrn

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 02:26 PM

Oh yay more of Jon being infuriating.

Family, Duty, Honour... Damm Catelyn, you could have atleast drilled that into him you useless...

"Oh my brother is north of the wall, pfft no matter."

"Oh the North is bleeding to death, pfft no matter."

"You know nothing, Jon Snow" yep ficker than Small Paul and then some.

#12 The Scabbard Of the Morning

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 02:31 PM

Yeah, because abandoning his duty to the men who elected him their leader, and abandoning the defense of the Wall against the Others, the success of which the fate of all Westeros rests upon, is infuriating.

#13 kedlav

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 02:48 PM

the north has fallen in with the Boltons then?
This Arnolf guy pretty much hitched his wagon to the only avalible train?Is Harrion Karstark mentioned, Rickards oldest son? the guy has the worst luck, two Battles, twice captured


Well, the Mormonts are still loyal to the King in the North(lol), but from AFFC we can infer some lords are falling in line with the Iron Throne, and thus with Bolton.

We may have inadvertent proof that Wyman played Cersei false w/r/t Davos. According to Aurane Waters, the offer was your swords and your silver in return for "well, nothing;" but if Stannis is offering Val to Wyman (a hilarious idea, incidentally), then it's noteworthy that Wyman didn't pass this along.


Jon gave Manderly as part of the names listed by Stannis as possibilities IIRC(not firm here).

Is there more to this chapter, btw? Because this seems a lot shorter than the others we've had summarized.


I didn't take notes. There should be a more detailed version posted, and that's why I'm putting all this effort into Q&A, as its kicking my memory into high gear, thus if you read through my responses, you'll pick up more. As far as the chapter goes, I remember at the reading I was thinking it was a bit on the long side, but you've got 2-3 pages of wolf, a page of Edd, 2 of Jon walking to the wall, a dozen with him and Stannis, and then 1-2 of Jon and Mel.

"Oh my brother is north of the wall, pfft no matter."


Remember, Jon only knows Summer is north of the wall, in the chapter, he wonders whether Bran lives on at least in part inside Summer.

Yeah, because abandoning his duty to the men who elected him their leader, and abandoning the defense of the Wall against the Others, the success of which the fate of all Westeros rests upon, is infuriating.


Expect logic of a Stark fanboi? roooooooooooooofl

#14 urizen

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 04:38 PM

Jon gave Manderly as part of the names listed by Stannis as possibilities IIRC(not firm here).



Who were the other possibilites?

That Melisandre might acknowladge that she's mistaken is new. Before it's been the My way or the highway approach or well..My way or the stake approach from her.

#15 kedlav

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 07:05 PM

Who were the other possibilites?


Not exactly sure on this, but I'm thinking it was the Karstark uncle and Wyman's son in Harrenhal.

#16 Jughead of the Round

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 11:43 PM

Remember, Jon only knows Summer is north of the wall, in the chapter, he wonders whether Bran lives on at least in part inside Summer.


That's really interesting. I wonder what Jon thinks of Summer's progression north? He last saw him at Queenscrown, and now he's north of the Wall? Jon is so close to realizing that maybe Bran is still alive: I mean, all the pieces are there... only a few ways to get north of the Wall: gates, gorge or Sam's secret entrance. "Samwell!" I think Jon will be the first person to discover that he is; I wonder if it will happen by the end of this book?

As far as the chapter goes, I remember at the reading I was thinking it was a bit on the long side, but you've got 2-3 pages of wolf, a page of Edd, 2 of Jon walking to the wall, a dozen with him and Stannis, and then 1-2 of Jon and Mel.


What were some of the details with Ghost's wandering? Probably just sniffing trees and such. Was Ghost in the Haunted Forest? Did Edd and Jon just discuss Mormont's raven, or did they banter a bit? What were some of the details with Jon walking to the Wall? Was ole Stannis grumpy because he didn't eat breakfast yet?

I always thought Jon would try and see Mance and talk with him (like let him know what he did with his son), but I guess this won't be happening.

#17 urizen

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 03:45 AM

Do we get a look at how many Queen's Men and King's Men respectively there are with Stannis at the Wall. In ASoS there seem to be only Queen's Men with Stannis. I saw this as Stannis has fallen in with Melisandres idea's hook, line and sinker or maybe being controlled somehow by Mel thus putting only Yes-men on his councils while keeping away those that actually think for themselves (i.e Davos) rather than spouting Pro-R'hollor catch-frases (i.e. Axell Florent).

#18 Xanrn

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 10:19 AM

Fanboi logic?

No its just plain logic.

Jon is the only who can unite the North again, unite the North under a leader who actually knows whats happening beyond the Wall and before the coming storm.

Instead let the North be bled stupid by a multi-sided civil war to the point where it can offer no help at all to the Nightswatch.

You people honestly think a few hundred Brothers and Stannis's few thousand can hold against the Others? The Others that took the combined might of the First Men and Children of the Forest to stop?

a Strong Northern Leader who knows the cause that they fight, a united North under said Leader. Are you saying thats not good for the Nightswatch?

a Northern Leader with Ironborn to the West and Traitors to the South and East, you know what thoose Invaders and Traitors equal? 3 Words, Join or Die.

You want to talk about Duty? You call ignoring the power to be able to gain reinforcements, resupplies and hope for your men, not doing one's duty?

If you were a Nightswatch member what would you prefer? One man as your Lord Commander or that one man leading an Army to stand beside you? That one man bringing the power of a Great House to bare in support of you?

Jon could by simply raising the Stark standard double the strength of the wall and thats not a logical thing to do?

He already learned the lesson Duty comes before Honour, when he killed a sworn brother, slept with a woman and rode with the Wildlings.

His duty as Lord Commander is to do the best he can for the Nightswatch, normally that would be working hard as leading but now when he has a way to vastly improve the defences of the Wall. Being a good Lord Commander is not doing his best and this is a case of only the best will do.

#19 kedlav

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 01:58 PM

Besides the fact that your inane arguments should be in another thread, keep in mind that the main power of Robb's forces, the cream of the North, have been killed. The Boltons are loyal to the Iron Thrones, and the Ironmen are still a threat. Manderly's son is a captive, denying anyone not loyal to the Iron Throne sea access as well as the biggest economic powerhouse. The bottom line is, at this point, siding against the Iron Throne is a deathwish. In addition, Jon would have to break his vows, let some sycophant like Slynt take the Watch. The power of the North is broken. The wall will be broken. Yadda yadda yadda.

#20 The Scabbard Of the Morning

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 05:34 PM

I just don't see Jon, who's a bastard which means Nobles already don't trust him, can leave the wall which would also involve abandoning his oath to the NW (which people in the North take very seriosuly), would have any respect left among the Northern Lords to "unite" them.

Particularly when large portion of the nobles most loyal to the Starks were either slain or had their forces decimated, and the power in the North are concentrated mainly in the hands of people like Bolton and the Karstarks both of whom wants to rule Winterfell rather than follow a Stark bastard.

"You people honestly think a few hundred Brothers and Stannis's few thousand can hold against the Others? The Others that took the combined might of the First Men and Children of the Forest to stop?"

Well, he does have the WALL, they didn't have that the last time.

Besides, you have to accept that Jon is not at the moment a "strong" anything, other than the NW nobody really thinks that much of him other than a boy playing at being a general.

Maybe if he holds the wall for a while, his victories will give him fame and *then* he can have the respect of the North to rally them behind him, but right now I just don't see the Northrn Lords that eager to rally behind Jon.