How do you feel about Cersei?

[King of Winters]

Even after we saw inside her mind on AFFC and ADWD, I still didn't sympathise with her and feel pity for her.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

So Robert should have abdicated the throne so Cersei could rule solely by herself to make her happy? Robert should have never consummated the relationship so Cersei could keep sleeping with her brother?

Robert should not have been a drunk. He should have treated his wife with respect. He should not have called her another woman's name. He should not have hit her. They should have ruled together.

[Lion of Judah]

While she is a tragic figure, I never sympathize with her. I save that sympathy for the children she killed, for the servant girl she led down into the torture cells, for Alayaya who she had her daddy strip naked and whipped, the many people who fell victim to her because she had a bad hair day, Tommen.

[Mladen]

Is that what we're calling it nowadays...

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: . Apparently we do :)

Cersei is not a tragic figure. How the fuck can you excuse her actions or entirely blame Robert for their marriage? She was fucking Jamie throughout the entirety of her marriage. Robert had his own issues and was far from a perfect husband, but Cersei was never a good wife either. Her personality would prevent her from being a good wife to anyone. She's waaaayto selfish, paranoid and unpredictable for that to ever happen.

Stop insulting first. We can have normal, civilized conversation. Robert never knew of her adultery and he behaved so wrongly to her. Robert messed it up all when he rejected the idea to move on and continue his life when Lyanna died. He basically cut the roots of the marriage. They could have lived in some harmony, respectful marriage, like Rhaegar and Elia, even though they didn`t love each other. Robert destroyed all that with his behavior towards Cersei

[Littlefingers In The Air]

And people say you`re not funny :rofl:

do they? Haven't heard that

[therealbando]

do they? Haven't heard that

I heard people say that LF isn`t funny, but that`s just not true.

[The Great Walrus]

do they? Haven't heard that

You have your moments, but don't let it get to your head...

[Groat]

Robert should not have been a drunk. He should have treated his wife with respect. He should not have called her another woman's name. He should not have hit her. They should have ruled together.

1) We don't know how much Robert drank at the beginning of the marriage. Personally, if I had to marry Cersei Lannister, I would drink all the time too.

2) We do not know if there was any lack of respect in the marriage from Robert early on. When we see their interactions after 15 years of marriage, and the lack of respect seems fairly mutual.

3) Yes Robert called out another woman's name, are you suggesting that Robert ruined the marriage by saying this? Had Robert never said Lyanna's name, would him and Cersei have had a normal, healthy relationship?

4) Hitting woman is bad, and I am not defending this in any way. We do not know when Robert became abusive to Cersei, all we have is the "badge of honor" from Ned's POV, and the marriage was over at that point.

IMO, and feel free to disagree, Robert could have married just about any other noble woman, and probably had a more normal marriage. Would he have still drank and whored? I'm sure he would have, but I don't see Robert being abusive as part of his character. I see Robert more resorting to abuse after years of a disfunctional marriage with Cersei. There is no excuse for it, but I just don't believe the marriage started out that way.

Cersei on the other hand, it doesn't matter who she would marry, She would never be happy. Cersei wants to be a man and rule in her own right, until she get's this she will never be happy.

For your final point, men are the lords, and it is the men who rule. Take it up with their society, I didn't make the rules. Suggesting Robert, who is king, to share his rule is preposterous.

[David Selig]

I love her, she's always entertaining.

Plus she got King Bob murdered, and that's a major plus in my book.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

1) We don't know how much Robert drank at the beginning of the marriage. Personally, if I had to marry Cersei Lannister, I would drink all the time too.

2) We do not know if there was any lack of respect in the marriage from Robert early on. When we see their interactions after 15 years of marriage, and the lack of respect seems fairly mutual.

3) Yes Robert called out another woman's name, are you suggesting that Robert ruined the marriage by saying this? Had Robert never said Lyanna's name, would him and Cersei have had a normal, healthy relationship?

4) Hitting woman is bad, and I am not defending this in any way. We do not know when Robert became abusive to Cersei, all we have is the "badge of honor" from Ned's POV, and the marriage was over at that point.

IMO, and feel free to disagree, Robert could have married just about any other noble woman, and probably had a more normal marriage. Would he have still drank and whored? I'm sure he would have, but I don't see Robert being abusive as part of his character. I see Robert more resorting to abuse after years of a disfunctional marriage with Cersei. There is no excuse for it, but I just don't believe the marriage started out that way.

Cersei on the other hand, it doesn't matter who she would marry, She would never be happy. Cersei wants to be a man and rule in her own right, until she get's this she will never be happy.

For your final point, men are the lords, and it is the men who rule. Take it up with their society, I didn't make the rules. Suggesting Robert, who is king, to share his rule is preposterous.

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. Calling your new wife another woman's name is the perfect way to tell her you don't love her if you want her to become apathetic towards you. It was very disrespectful and it set the tone for the rest of the marriage.

As for sharing his rule being preposterous, how so? It's literally what he tasked Ned with.

[bbstark]

1) We don't know how much Robert drank at the beginning of the marriage. Personally, if I had to marry Cersei Lannister, I would drink all the time too.

2) We do not know if there was any lack of respect in the marriage from Robert early on. When we see their interactions after 15 years of marriage, and the lack of respect seems fairly mutual.

3) Yes Robert called out another woman's name, are you suggesting that Robert ruined the marriage by saying this? Had Robert never said Lyanna's name, would him and Cersei have had a normal, healthy relationship?

4) Hitting woman is bad, and I am not defending this in any way. We do not know when Robert became abusive to Cersei, all we have is the "badge of honor" from Ned's POV, and the marriage was over at that point.

1. he got drunk at the very beginning, their wedding night

2. he called her a different name on their wedding night, that is very disrespectful to a woman

3. women, and especially a proud woman like Cersei would never forget that. That is where their marriage ended. Robert never even attempted in being a husbad to her

4. Does it matter *when* he started being abusive to her? You are trying to blame Cersei for something Robert has done. Cersei is culpable for her own crimes, not for Robert's he is the one that hit her, this is just another way of saying "she was asking for it". Stop blaming the victiim!

IMO, and feel free to disagree, Robert could have married just about any other noble woman, and probably had a more normal marriage. Would he have still drank and whored? I'm sure he would have, but I don't see Robert being abusive as part of his character. I see Robert more resorting to abuse after years of a disfunctional marriage with Cersei. There is no excuse for it, but I just don't believe the marriage started out that way.

Cersei on the other hand, it doesn't matter who she would marry, She would never be happy. Cersei wants to be a man and rule in her own right, until she get's this she will never be happy.

For your final point, men are the lords, and it is the men who rule. Take it up with their society, I didn't make the rules. Suggesting Robert, who is king, to share his rule is preposterous.

Robert not abusive??? He threatens Ned when he disagrees with him regarding what to do with Daenerys. Your whole argument is about defending Robert for hitting a woman, because the woman is bad anyways. When you dismiss Cersei with "she will never be happy", you are basically saying that it doesn't matter WHAT Robert does, because she is de facto unhappy, so he can even hit her, or be a good husband (which he wasn't from the start) and it won't make a difference.

This kind of arguing is flawed, and finally, here it is, accept it: mysogynistic.

[mrunderhill]

There are all sorts of love. People can love deeply and never do anything right. Love isn`t just some noble feeling, love can be destructive too. And I think Cersei`s love for Jaime was of that sort. She loved him the only way she could. It`s psychologically very disturbing, but that doesn`t change the fact she thought of that as love. No matter what we think of it.

Sorry just because she thought she loved him, does not mean she did. If you are not prepared to make on sacrifical act, even a small one for someone then you don't love them. She did not love Jaime in the only way she could. She was capable of loving Joffrey in a selfless way.

Well, Tyrion became rapist, he was possesive to the moment where he killed a man. I mean, it`s not like her brothers are far better. They are not that dark, but they are not some example of virtue.

Jaime is far better and it took an awful lot for Tyrion to even come anywhere close to her level. Neither of them would have treated Maggy in such a way.

In arranged marriage like that, she had no choice to accept what was given to her. BUt, that collided with her personnality and vanity. Also, we have the fact Robert was the first one who was unkind. We know he was basically raping her from beginning and that she begged him to be more gentle.

She WANTED to marry Robert. She was estatic at the prospect of being Queen. Robert was not raping her from the beginning. They had consensual sex on the first night and she appeared to be enjoying it until he said Lyanna's name. The next day she was back to her affair. In fact I think she had an affair on the day of her marriage. Asking Robert to be more gentle was well into their marriage.

As for killing, I know you have to be disturbed as a person to do that. I just think that beside evil, there`s a deep tragic notion in her.

Fair enough, but we will have to agree. Cersei was born with everything and was still committing murder as a child.

[TalalOfDorne]

I actually like her. I don't like A LOT of things she did, and she DOES deserve to get punished for some of her actions (Not a walk of shame though). But yes, I do sympathize with her sometimes. I actually think shes very intelligent, and wouldnt make a bad ruler had she not let her pride get the better of her.

Her chapters were also among one of the most entertaining in the entire series.

[David Selig]

1) We don't know how much Robert drank at the beginning of the marriage. Personally, if I had to marry Cersei Lannister, I would drink all the time too.

Robert had always drank a lot, Ned mentions it a few times in his PoV.

2) We do not know if there was any lack of respect in the marriage from Robert early on. When we see their interactions after 15 years of marriage, and the lack of respect seems fairly mutual.

Robert cheated openly about a year, if not less, into the marriage, with an Estermont cousin of his.

[Gurkhal]

Not very suprisingly I like her and feel for her but when I read her chapters I just want to weep tears of blood. While she has done some bad things and acts I think that she has received her fair share of blows. The only thing that really, really bothers me with her is that she has so little emphaty for other women when she herself can identify that alot of her troubles are heaped on her because she's a woman.

[bbstark]

Now to the OP:

I have a weak spot for Cersei. She is a very proud, yet narcissistic woman, who insists on life being perfect, but is put into situations throughout her whole life that do not allow for that. If she was kinder or more empathetic, she would have made the most of her life, but her enormous hubris gets in the way of it.

She is doomed from the moment her mother dies. Unable to accept the circumstance, she blames it on Tyrion, and her lack of empathy allow her to be cruel to him, without consequences on her conscience.

Then in a desperate attempt to assure her a more perfect life, she seeks out a prophecy of the witch. Unable to process that information, she turns around a takes it out on her friend.

She is literally unable to take any responsibility for her actions; she feels entitled to a perfect life, and her actions are actually reactions to life not being perfect. Whatever goes wrong, in her eyes is not her fault, and the person responsible needs to be punished. She is a classic example of someone beating their "head against the wall" instead of, oh I don't know, finding a door? For Cersei there IS no Plan B, it's plan A or bust.

I think she's beautifully written, and like some people mentioned before, she is more tragic than evil. She is proud, she has hubris, and she is most certainly narcissistic, but in her those characteristics bring out the worst in her.

Of all the things that have happened to her, what I blame her for the least is her reaction to Robert being a terrible husband. Unlike some posters here, I don't blame her for the incest. I see people fawning over the Targs, but blaming Cersei for incest (note Cersei, as if Jaime was somehow uninvolved???) .... ahem..... you get my sideways "really?" glance for that one...

Incest is wrong for many reasons, but offending other people is not one of them.

Finally, the real reason I like her, is because she's such a beautiful cautionary tale of what happens when your pride blinds you. And she's f*cking hillarious

[Groat]

1. he got drunk at the very beginning, their wedding night

2. he called her a different name on their wedding night, that is very disrespectful to a woman

3. women, and especially a proud woman like Cersei would never forget that. That is where their marriage ended. Robert never even attempted in being a husbad to her

4. Does it matter *when* he started being abusive to her? You are trying to blame Cersei for something Robert has done. Cersei is culpable for her own crimes, not for Robert's he is the one that hit her, this is just another way of saying "she was asking for it". Stop blaming the victiim!

Robert not abusive??? He threatens Ned when he disagrees with him regarding what to do with Daenerys. Your whole argument is about defending Robert for hitting a woman, because the woman is bad anyways. When you dismiss Cersei with "she will never be happy", you are basically saying that it doesn't matter WHAT Robert does, because she is de facto unhappy, so he can even hit her, or be a good husband (which he wasn't from the start) and it won't make a difference.

This kind of arguing is flawed, and finally, here it is, accept it: mysogynistic.

I'm not sure what exactly you think my point is, but allow me to explain more. Here is what I'm argueing against.

I really do think her whole sense of self is centered around whether or not those close to her actually love her. I think if Robert, strong as he was until after his rebellion, would have loved her, she'd have found it in herself to be a good wife.

I disagreed with this statement. My point was it doesn't matter how great a husband Cersei could get, she would never become the loving, dutiful wife. Cersei and Robert were a train wreck, and the blame goes both ways, but I just don't see Cersei ever being in a happy marriage.

At no point did I ever defend Robert for being abusive, quote the contrary if you bothered to read my posts, and I find it insulting that you would suggest otherwise. The point I was making is about Cersei, and the fact that she would never be a loving wife, no matter who she married. If you want to read things in my post that aren't there, feel free, but I never once defended Robert for his actions.

[Gaz0680]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: . Apparently we do :)

Stop insulting first. We can have normal, civilized conversation. Robert never knew of her adultery and he behaved so wrongly to her. Robert messed it up all when he rejected the idea to move on and continue his life when Lyanna died. He basically cut the roots of the marriage. They could have lived in some harmony, respectful marriage, like Rhaegar and Elia, even though they didn`t love each other. Robert destroyed all that with his behavior towards Cersei

Um, where was the insult? I didn't say anything remotely insulting to you. All I did was express disagreement with your opinion.

Respectful marriage? With Cersei? That was never going to happen, even if Robert had been a good husband (which he wasn't). You blame Robert for the entirety of their marriage failure, but I think Cersei was just as responsible.She was screwing Jamie her selfish nature would have ensured that kept happening regardless of Roberts qualities as a husband. Even if Robert had been a good husband, Cersei would still have wanted him out of the way eventually

[Mladen]

Sorry just because she thought she loved him, does not mean she did. If you are not prepared to make on sacrifical act, even a small one for someone then you don't love them. She did not love Jaime in the only way she could. She was capable of loving Joffrey in a selfless way.

I think we all have idea that love is this selfless feeling, and we constantly forget that love can be also perverse, possessive and destructive. Also, woman`s love and mother`s love isn`t comparable. Mothers love unconditionally, women don`t. She loved Jaime in a tragic, disturbed way, even wrong, but that was some sort of twisted love.

Jaime is far better and it took an awful lot for Tyrion to even come anywhere close to her level. Neither of them would have treated Maggy in such a way.

Let we don`t forget he did push a child off the window. And Tyrion started showing the same possessiveness with Shae Cersei showed with Jaime. Well, I am not sure about Jaime, but Tyrion did kill a singer.

She WANTED to marry Robert. She was estatic at the prospect of being Queen. Robert was not raping her from the beginning. They had consensual sex on the first night and she appeared to be enjoying it until he said Lyanna's name. The next day she was back to her affair. In fact I think she had an affair on the day of her marriage. Asking Robert to be more gentle was well into their marriage.

The marriage was over with Lyanna`s name. And more than that, whenever raping began, she didn`t deserve it. Yes, she was cheating him, but unlike him, she did it discretly. He never knew about Jaime. He, on the other hand, was doing all in his power to humiliate her. I think he was basically angry or jealous of Tywin, and he made his daughter suffer. Robert did a terrible damage to Cersei.

Fair enough, but we will have to agree. Cersei was born with everything and was still committing murder as a child.

That I can not deny.

[Mladen]

Respectful marriage? With Cersei? That was never going to happen, even if Robert had been a good husband (which he wasn't). You blame Robert for the entirety of their marriage failure, but I think Cersei was just as responsible.She was screwing Jamie her selfish nature would have ensured that kept happening regardless of Roberts qualities as a husband. Even if Robert had been a good husband, Cersei would still have wanted him out of the way eventually

OK, let we see Robert`s wrongdoings as a husband

1. He cheated on her and fathered 16 bastards

2. He was open about his whores

3. He was basically raping her.

4. He mollested her

5. On the first night, he uttered the name of the woman he loved.

I don`t think respectful marriage could have been achieved with Robert, not Cersei. After all, her affair with Jaime was secretive, and he never found out. There`s a huge difference in that marriage between the two of them. And, Robert has a lion`s share of guilt here.