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[Book Spoilers]The "Episode 9" Moment of Season 4


Tewks44

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You’ve identified the main problem with all these prognostications. They all figure that there have to be eleven more episodes between the Red Wedding and the end of the Storm material. There don’t, and there probably should not be. We know that Joffery bites in Martin’s Episode 2. The idea of Tyrion sitting around in jail for 7 more episodes is really hard to take. Too much bread, not enough butter.

And anyway, the showrunners have said that they will be showing character plot arcs from the whole Song of Ice and Fire, not just some one-to-one, or even here a one-to-two, book-to-season mapping. There is just no way to stretch the remaining Storm material into an entire TV season that works equally well for all the major characters they have to show.

Bran and Dany are just two of them; there are other problems, too. They will have to pull material from Feast and Dance to make this all add up sensibly for all the characters involved.

You're forgetting though that we have material thats being added to the canon by the show. I wouldn't be surprised if we got a little more Theon/Reek in season 4 that wasn't in the books and they may have more up their sleeves. Wouldn't be shocked if they found a way to introduce some of the foreshadowing that was missed in the first 3 seasons, such as ToJ. Maybe even a little BWB stuff to introduce LS. You maybe right that some stuff from the latter books makes it into season 4, but timeline wise, I think it will be consistant with the end of ASoS. Also, I think the fact that Martin is writing ep 2 doesn't necessarily mean that will be the PW, though it certainly does make you wanna lean that way. I think it depends on how they're going to handle Sansa's exit. If it follows the book, I think they've got a good bit of set-up to do on Ser Dontos, which I think would push it to ep 3 or 4, but if they figure out a better way to do it, all bets are off. Don't forget, they have a lot of story left to tell at the Wall from ASoS, Jon's arc is just really getting going at this point.

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Just thinking how things have gone so far, so much has been setting up of characters and positioning. Were now at the central part of the series and books, action and major events will be happening frequently. This is also where GOT is going to really take off, so many things going on, pace of story lines and events accellerating.

The producers cannot just save things as a focal point each season due to the amount of them going forward.

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I think Episode 9 is going to end with "EEEEELLLLLIIIIIAAAAA!!!!!" and Oberyn's death. That'd be perfect. They could develop him over the season as a sort of "Ned Stark hero character" and so killing him like that would elicit quite a lot of outrage and surprise! Also, it would condemn Tyrion to death, so it would be like a double wallop to the face for the poor Unsullied.

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I think Episode 9 is going to end with "EEEEELLLLLIIIIIAAAAA!!!!!" and Oberyn's death. That'd be perfect. They could develop him over the season as a sort of "Ned Stark hero character" and so killing him like that would elicit quite a lot of outrage and surprise! Also, it would condemn Tyrion to death, so it would be like a double wallop to the face for the poor Unsullied.

Agree with this. That will make all of the shocking events in the finale even more surprising, as usually the 'big' stuff happens in the ninth episode.

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Agree with this. That will make all of the shocking events in the finale even more surprising, as usually the 'big' stuff happens in the ninth episode.

I see the duel more as an episode 7/8 deal (so as not to protract Tyrion's trial.), with Tywin's death being the episode 9 event. I know you think that Tywin's death makes the best climax for Tyrion's arc, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think it's more important for the bigger picture that by season's end people know that Tyrion is going to meet up with Dany. After 10 episodes of Dany straight up putting her invasion of Westeros on indefinite hiatus, I think the audiences need something to assure them that yes, she's going to have an impact. Hinting at Quentyn, and sending Victarion off to her will help, but Tyrion - the fan favourite will be the deal sealer. Which is why he needs to reach Pentos in episode 10 imo.

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I see the duel more as an episode 7/8 deal (so as not to protract Tyrion's trial.), with Tywin's death being the episode 9 event. I know you think that Tywin's death makes the best climax for Tyrion's arc, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think it's more important for the bigger picture that by season's end people know that Tyrion is going to meet up with Dany. After 10 episodes of Dany straight up putting her invasion of Westeros on indefinite hiatus, I think the audiences need something to assure them that yes, she's going to have an impact. Hinting at Quentyn, and sending Victarion off to her will help, but Tyrion - the fan favourite will be the deal sealer. Which is why he needs to reach Pentos in episode 10 imo.

This is a valid point, and it could certainly play out that way, as well. I wouldn't even be opposed to it, honestly. But if the duel between the Red Viper and The Mountain isn't in the ninth episode, it will almost surely be in the eight episode, so as to set Tyrion up as the big episode nine death.

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This is a valid point, and it could certainly play out that way, as well. I wouldn't even be opposed to it, honestly. But if the duel between the Red Viper and The Mountain isn't in the ninth episode, it will almost surely be in the eight episode, so as to set Tyrion up as the big episode nine death.

It depends on where the Battle of the Wall is placed, which from D+D's comments looks to be taking up an entire episode. Because we probably need 2 or 3 episodes for the LC elections after the battle, E7/8 looks to be where they're putting that, so the RV duel will end up being shifted to one episode or another based on that.

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It depends on where the Battle of the Wall is placed, which from D+D's comments looks to be taking up an entire episode. Because we probably need 2 or 3 episodes for the LC elections after the battle, E7/8 looks to be where they're putting that, so the RV duel will end up being shifted to one episode or another based on that.

I don't think "bigger than Blackwater" necessarily means that the battle at the Wall has to take place over the course of one episode. In fact, I don't even think that's likely. They're probably going to combine the battle at Castle Black with the battle proper, so I could see the siege and Jon being arrested and sent out to deal with Mance, (etc.) taking place over several episodes. But you're right, a lot of this conjecture is dependent upon how they handle this particular plot thread. Between the scale of the battle itself, the death of Ygritte, Jon being arrested, and Stannis arriving to save the day - I don't know. It just seems like it would work better if it plays out over several episodes during the middle portion of the season.

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I don't think "bigger than Blackwater" necessarily means that the battle at the Wall has to take place over the course of one episode. In fact, I don't even think that's likely. They're probably going to combine the battle at Castle Black with the battle proper, so I could see the siege and Jon being arrested and sent out to deal with Mance, (etc.) taking place over several episodes. But you're right, a lot of this conjecture is dependent upon how they handle this particular plot thread. Between the scale of the battle itself, the death of Ygritte, Jon being arrested, and Stannis arriving to save the day - I don't know. It just seems like it would work better if it plays out over several episodes during the middle portion of the season.

Well my impression of what they were going to do, is have the siege of the Wall take place over several episodes, just as it takes place over several chapters in the books. And this will include Jon's arrest by Janos and possibly Ygritte's death in a smaller skirmish.

But the actual big battle, when Jon is sent to treat with Mance and Stannis arrives will take place over an entire, single episode imo. Or at least that's the impression I got from their comments. But who knows.

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Well my impression of what they were going to do, is have the siege of the Wall take place over several episodes, just as it takes place over several chapters in the books. And this will include Jon's arrest by Janos and possibly Ygritte's death in a smaller skirmish.

But the actual big battle, when Jon is sent to treat with Mance and Stannis arrives will take place over an entire, single episode imo. Or at least that's the impression I got from their comments. But who knows.

Oh, right. That's what I meant, basically. I just feel like Ygritte dying and Stannis arriving have to be in different episodes, so perhaps they'll keep the battle at Castle Black intact.

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I've posted this elsewhere, but oh well, here goes:

SEASON 4:

Ep. 1- Joffrey receives wedding gifts, and Tyrion welcomes Dorne to KL. Sucks to be Theon. (Maybe something with Davos)

Ep. 2- KL hosts a wedding. Shit hits the fan. Sansa busts a move. Tyrion is thrown in jail. Aemon tends to Jon at CB.

Ep. 3- Jamie & Brienne reach KL. Arya & the Hound make for the Eyrie. Dany heads for Mereen. Bran goes north of the wall. Sansa meets her savior. Jon preps CB for attack from the South.

Ep. 4- Ygritte's dies. Tyrion discusses with his uncle. Loras confronts Brienne. Cersei and Jamie have a warm reunion. Still sucks to be Theon. Stannis threatens Davos. Davos reads a letter. Sansa meets her aunt.

Ep. 5- Jon preps CB for attack from the North. Tyrion sends Pod for help. Jamie and his father have a less-than warm reunion. Arya & the Hound stop at an inn. Dany plots to take Mereen. Jorah makes uncomfortable advances.

Ep. 6- Tyrion has a chat with Oberyn. Part 1 of the trial. Jon defends the wall. Arya shows no mercy to the Hound. Sansa goes to the vale. Jamie convinces Loras to talk with Brienne.

Ep. 7- Alliser Thorne throws Jon in an ice cell. Part 2 of Tyrion's trial; Varys and Shae feature. Still sucks to be Theon. Bran wanders north. Dany does very little. Sansa meets her new betrothed.

Ep. 8- Jon is released to go parlay with Mance. Tyrion demands trial by battle. He is sent to the black cells. Jamie gives Brienne a new quest. Arya sells her horse to buy passage to the Wall.

Ep. 9- Jamie saves Tyrion. Tyrion gets back at Shae. Tywin doesn't shit gold. Jon talks with Mance, sees the horn of winter. Sansa builds a snow castle. Dany sends her sewer rats into Mereen.

Ep. 10- Stannis saves the day! Dany takes Mereen. Arya learns what saying Valar Morghulis gets you. Littlefinger: "Only Cat." Maybe we finally meet Un-Cat. Still sucks to be Theon.

SEASON 5:

Ep. 1: Arya arrives in Braavos. Littlefinger plots with Sansa. Stannis makes Jon an offer, while Sam organizes a vote. Jamie heads to the Riverlands. Ramsey takes Theon to Winterfell. Tyrion meets Illyrio.

Ep. 2: Brienne meets Pod. Illyrio sends Tyrion on his way. Dany confronts Jorah. Bran meets Bloodraven. Margaery marries Tommen. Victarion sets sail for Mereen. Arianne plots to make Myrcella a queen. Arya meets a kindly man. Davos meets Wyman Manderly.

Ep. 3: Jon becomes LC. He explains to Stannis how to take the north. Arya starts training. Tyrion sets sail with some Griffs. Mel burns “Mance”. Dany gets a marriage proposal. Theon visits Winterfell’s godswood. Bran looks through a tree.

Ep. 4: Sansa learns from Littlefinger. Arianne is imprisoned. Sam is sent to Oldtown with Gilly and Aemon. Jamie negotiates with the Blackfish. Cersei plots against Margaery. Tyrion stops at a brothel, and meets Jorah.

Ep. 5: Brienne meets a kindly septon and a large gravedigger. Dany has a wedding. Sam stops in Braavos. Arya/Cat of the Canals continues her training. Jon and Mel talk about daggers in the dark. Tyrion finds himself on another boat heading for Mereen. Davos finds himself on a boat to Skagos.

Ep. 6: Winterfell hosts a wedding. Stannis captures Deepwood Motte/Yara. Brienne meets Lady Stoneheart. Sansa and Sweet Robin travel to the Gates of the Moon. Theon visits Winterfell’s crypts. Tyrion and Jorah are taken captive by slavers. Jon makes a deal with Tormund and the Wildlings.

Ep. 7: Stannis is stuck in the snow. Cersei makes accusations against Margaery, and visits her in the sept. Dany re-opens the fighting pits in Mereen. Tyrion arrives in Mereen. Jon meets a banker from Braavos. The Wildlings cross the wall. Cersei is imprisoned. Arya goes blind.

Ep. 8: Cersei goes for a walk. Littlefinger lets Sansa in on a plan. Theon, Abel and the washerwomen hatch a plan. Jamie gets a visit from Brienne. Jorah chafes against his new position as a slave. Sam and Gilly have an intimate moment.

Ep. 9. Jon reads a letter from Ramsey. Dany goes to the fighting pits, then for a dragon ride. Cersei is meek to her uncle Kevan. Theon meets Stannis. Victarion gets to Slaver’s Bay. Jon sees daggers in the dark.

Ep. 10: Battle at Mereen. Tyrion turns the Second Sons to Dany’s cause. Kevan meets Varys. Sam gets to Oldtown, meets Pate. Arya learns how to change her face.

I enjoyed reading this, but you are almost completely wrapping up ADWD at the end of Season 5, which I think would be an insane idea.

There's a strong possibility that the TV show is going to catch up with the books already, but with this timeline, you would be all but guaranteeing that outcome

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Season 4:

Ep 1: Tyrion receives news of Oberyn's arrival, Euron returns to Pyke, introduction to Victarion and Aeron, Sansa learns of a plot to return her home

Ep 2: Tyrion meets Oberyn, who demands vengeance for Elia's death, Bran meets Coldhands

Ep 3: Kingsmoot, Mance starts to move his troops towards the Wall

Ep 4: Purple Wedding, Tyrion is arrested, Daenerys looks to take Meereen, Yara flees Pyke

Ep 5: Sansa escapes KL and meets LF, Tyrion is informed of his charges, Battle of the Wall begins, Jaime returns to KL, Bran wargs Hodor outside Bloodraven's cave, Davos receives the NW letters

Ep 6: Tyrion's trial, Battle of the Wall continues, Ygritte dies, LF marries Lysa, Sansa departs for the Vale, Bran starts learning from BR

Ep 7: Battle of the Wall concludes, Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne arrive and put Jon in the ice cells, Oberyn becomes Tyrion's champion

Ep 8: Oberyn vs Gregor, Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS! Jaime sends Brienne to recover Arya and Sansa

Ep 9: Daenerys exiles Jorah, Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae, Inn at the Crossroads, Arya leaves the Hound to die, Jon is offered to be legitimised

Ep 10: Tyrion sets sail from Westeros, Arya sets sail to Braavos, Reek is revealed, Jon becomes LC, LF kills Lysa, Dany decides to stay in Meereen, Lady Stoneheart is revealed, Euron launches his invasion plans

The Kingsmoot and Ironborn is definitely the toughest one to fit in, given that nothing happens for a long time chronologically, as far as the ironborn are considered.

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I think it will be Littlefinger's "Only Cat" moment...

...followed by Brienne's "hanging" and Lady Stoneheart's introduction.

IMO, LF killing Lysa is pretty much the perfect way to end the season(Lady Stoneheart withstanding, that's more of an epilogue) as it effectively concludes the WOTFK, which has been the focal point of the first four seasons and reveals the war's principal architect. So it just has to be in ep10 as the penultimate scene of the season, with Lady Stoneheart being the final scene.

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I just can't see this happening; it would be an abomination of storytelling. Dany has only TWO chapters left in ASOS. No matter what kind of filler scenes you throw in, there's no material for a season-long arc. I'd like to see the show dive headlong into ADWD where Dany is concerned.

They can´t. If PW is in episode 3 and Tyrion´s escape in episode 10 (which I agree is most likely scenario beause Tywin´s death is definitely the episode 9 moment), the majority of season will only cover a few weeks of time. That´s not enough time for Dany to fail or proof herself as the queen. I think D&D´s plan is turn the siege of Meereen into a long and complicated story, where her latter Meereen main enemies are already introduced and there is lots of focus on Jorah/Dario rivality. They will not progress beyond her stuff from ASOS plotwise, but they will already use all the complexity and characters from her Meereen story in ADWD. It will no longer be as cartoonish as her winning spree this season.

What I think they´ll do is using Hazzeah as part of the the motivation for Dany to stay. I also think they will reveal the other cities plans to attack Meereen so the audience knows her easy times are over and there will be consequences in season 5 (where I think they will do all her ADWD story in one season). They will have Dany finishing by triumph in season 3, but in season 4 it will be the exact opposite, from Jorah´s banishing in episode 8 or 9 to the final moments where she will be brought Hazzeah´s bones and the news of the bloody revolution in Astapor.

The end will be big "What will Dany do now?" moment, followed by opening in season 5 where the dragons are already imprisoned, Drogon is gone and the terrorist are attacking her new police force.

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Battle at the Wall, almost for sure. D&D have already been talking about a battle "Bigger than Blackwater" for Season 4....but Tywin's death would work better in Episode 9.

They can do both. The battle could be amazing visually, but it´s not really that shocking. The episode can start with a scene where Varys is already helping Tyrion escape, then there is his big moment with Jamie and the finale in Tyrion´s bedroom. That´s 4 scenes and 20 minutes at best. You still have another 40 minutes left for other stuff.

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Instead of doing a Blackwater type episode, they need to spread the Battle at the Wall over the course of many episodes. It's spread over multiple chapters in the books, because it's a protracted siege, and they need to adequately show this. The idea is simple really. Assuming Jon is hunted by eagle Orell, Ygritte and Tormund and takes an arrow to the knee at the end of this season. My ideal season at the Wall is as follows:

Episode 1: Jon is treated for wounds, informed of his brothers death, and questioned by Maester Aemon, Bowen Marsh and Donal Noye. He tells them all he knows about the Wildlings.

Episode 2: Not present

Episode 3: Mance's host arrives at the Wall. Aemon and Donal declare that Jon was telling the truth.

Episode 4: Castle Black is attacked from the South. With help from others, Jon devises a trap that the Wildlings fall into. Ygritte dies.

Episode 5: Mance's army attacks from the North. Their numbers are immense but the Night's Watch win quite easily.

Episode 6: Wilding's break through the first barrier, but are stopped by Donal Noye in the murder-hole where he dies. Aemon declares that Jon is the only one left to lead.

Episode 7: After weeks, Jon and the rest of the Watch are beyond tired, but their is a glimmer of hope when men arrive from Eastwatch. Jon is arrested by Alliser and Janos.

Episode 8: Janos Slynt forces Jon to assassinate Mance. When he meets Mance, he also meets Dalla and Val. Mance tells him he's just trying to help his family (this is important). Then Stannis arrives and saves everyone.

Episode 9: The aftermath at the Wall, Stannis makes his offer to Jon.

Episode 10: The Night's Watch elect Jon LC 998.

More on-topic: Tyrion will kill Tywin at the end of episode 9. It's the most logical event for it. His execution date will have been set, so many non-readers would assume his own death is going to be the big episode 9 moment, but instead that gets flipped on its head and Tyrion comes out on top, so to speak. I think Oberyn vs the Mountain can happen in the same episode though, just not as a cliffhanger.

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Season 4x9 will be epic I guess :

- Viper and Mountain.

- A fish taking wing.

- Finale of the Battle of the Wall (Stannis arrival, starting the election).

...

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I enjoyed reading this, but you are almost completely wrapping up ADWD at the end of Season 5, which I think would be an insane idea.

There's a strong possibility that the TV show is going to catch up with the books already, but with this timeline, you would be all but guaranteeing that outcome

Yeah. You pretty much nailed it on the head.

But D+D must be concerned with the show as it's own separate entity; they can't slow down the action and risk losing viewers on the off chance that GRRM finishes the manuscripts for them on time.

I am FIRMLY in the camp of people who think books 4 & 5 should be one season. I don't see how they'll make inner dialogue and endless boat travels interesting to viewers who now expect more from the show. People have even been complaining that season 3 was slow. I think it was spectacular.

Ultimately, this is just speculation, and I'd love to see other thoughts and ideas. A lot of people have responded (elsewhere) that aFFC and aDwD will probably be spread over a season-and-a-half, but my question then is what is the climax (episode 9) of the season??????!!!

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