There must be a Stark in Winterfell

[Gekke Henkie]

Guys, could you please stick to the topic or have this discussion elsewhere?

[Gekke Henkie]

I'm sorry friends. I'm just interested to know what people think of this, since it's mentioned in the book, and since it says "must", and I really really really don't give two craps which family has an earlier foothold in pre-historic Westeros.

[Morienthar]

Guys, could you please stick to the topic or have this discussion elsewhere?

Ok............

The Starks being the ones who built winterfell probably have sme sort of a connection to it that the other houses don't and/or can't.

They were the Kings of Winter and also the Last Hero was probably a Proto Stark

I'm sorry friends. I'm just interested to know what people think of this, since it's mentioned in the book, and since it says "must", and I really really really don't give two craps which family has an earlier foothold in pre-historic Westeros.

A bit of history is always good.

[Gekke Henkie]

Ok............

The Starks being the ones who built winterfell probably have sme sort of a connection to it that the other houses don't and/or can't.

They were the Kings of Winter and also the Last Hero was probably a Proto Stark

Agreed, although i'm not sure about the Last Hero. But again, must there really be a Stark in WF, and why?

A bit of history is always good.

Very true for actual, factual history. I don't feel the need to go backwards with GRRM though, takes long enough going forward as it is.

[Little and Less]

I've wondered this myself mainly because the Northern houses believe this too (like it is canon) well except the Boltons, who appear not to care. Even the Wildlings who do not care about the southerns, seem to hold some respect for the Starks. There has to be a point to the saying. My guess is that deep down, the Starks were the ones that knew how to (and did) defeat the Others, or at the very least, drive them back North. Hense one of the reasons the're well respected by their Bannermen. Hense the building of the Wall (first line of defense) and then Winterfell (second line of defense) by Bran the Builder. And why BR needs Bran's powers - BR probably has seen what the Starks did to the Others via weirwoodnet. My crackpot guess is the Last Hero was a Stark.

I've also thought that it was significant that Winterfell was built on a hot springs, aside from keeping the castle warm. Maybe this keeps the castle from ever being totally frozen from the cold/winter that is unleased by the Others. And that the tunnels underneath the crypts were a way for the Starks to meet up with the COTF. Winterfell always sounded like the name of a command post to me. ("Operation Winter Fell")

I'm hoping this will be where Bran's storyline is going in the next book - we will find out why there must be a Stark in Winterfell.

I like the idea mentioned earlier that the Starks can't be totally transformed (at least their thoughts anyways) into a wight. This is a very powerful thing and may have something to do with being powerful wargs. We can only guess at this point.

[Gekke Henkie]

I've wondered this myself mainly because the Northern houses believe this too (like it is canon) well except the Boltons, who appear not to care. Even the Wildlings who do not care about the southerns, seem to hold some respect for the Starks. There has to be a point to the saying. My guess is that deep down, the Starks were the ones that knew how to (and did) defeat the Others. Hense one of the reasons the're respected by their Bannermen. Hense the building of the Wall (first line of defense) and then Winterfell (second line of defense) by Bran the Builder. And why BR needs Bran's powers - BR probably has seen what the Starks did to the Others via weirwoodnet.

I've also thought that it was significant that Winterfell was built on a hot springs, aside from keeping the castle warm. Maybe this keeps the castle from ever being totally frozen from the cold/winter that is unleased by the Others. And that the tunnels underneath the crypts were a way for the Starks to meet up with the COTF.

I'm hoping this will be where Bran's storyline is going in the next book - we will find out why there must be a Stark in Winterfell.

Very interesting notion about Bran & BR, and about the hot springs being significant. I certainly hadn't thought of that, and it's pretty plausible. I'm really hoping for a Stark - COTF connection to become clear in TWOW as well, the Starks must have some roots mingled with the COTF for them to be so magical in comparison to other families. I'm still thinking the absence of a Stark at WF has possibly caused winter, and I'm getting more and more convinced Benjen is HM to be the Stark at WF.

[Morienthar]

Agreed, although i'm not sure about the Last Hero. But again, must there really be a Stark in WF, and why?

For the Last hero,It had to be one of the First Men,SO it's quite possible that he is the one who started the oldest family in the north,also we know that the Starks practice/Used to Practice blood sacrifice,Just like AA/Last Hero did.

As for why there must be a Stark in WF,It's an old saying so....It's possible that Winterfell and along with it the Starks are the last line of defense against the Others,i.e If WF falls to them anything south of it won't have a chance of stopping them.

Very interesting notion about Bran & BR, and about the hot springs being significant. I certainly hadn't thought of that. I'm still thinking the absence of a Stark at WF has possibly caused winter, and I'm getting more and more convinced Benjen is HM to be the Stark at WF.

There have been winters when Starks were in winterfell,There was a pretty brutal 4 year winter at the time of Tyrion's birth and a few before and after that and there were Starks at winterfell then.

[Gekke Henkie]

For the Last hero,It had to be one of the First Men,SO it's quite possible that he is the one who started the oldest family in the north,also we know that the Starks practice/Used to Practice blood sacrifice,Just like AA/Last Hero did.

As for why there must be a Stark in WF,It's an old saying so....It's possible that Winterfell and along with it the Starks are the last line of defense against the Others,i.e If WF falls to them anything south of it won't have a chance of stopping them.

There have been winters when Starks were in winterfell,There was a pretty brutal 4 year winter at the time of Tyrion's birth and a few before and after that and there were Starks at winterfell then.

1. Yes, that definitely makes sense

2. I don't know. The use of 'must' in the phrase, and the amount of times it's repeated, nudges me to believe there's something else/magical going on.

3. Valid point, it is one of my most crackpot theories. It could be though, that the Starks shortly left WF, because no Stark at WF causes winter =/= Stark at WF ends winter. Could be this fact has been forgotten, and hasn't been noticed due to Starks usually being at WF. I know, I'm insane.

[Little and Less]

Maybe the absence of the Starks at WF signals not just any winter but the "Long Winter" - the Others will attack the Realm because Ned's beheading and Theon's treason (which drove Rickon and Bran away from WF) drove all the Starks away (and remember both Benjen and Jon were not at the Wall for a time). The Others will now start their full attack, given their Wardens have now vanished.

The last nail on the coffin, probably is if Jon is dead/in a coma. If Jon is confirmed "dead" and taken away from the Wall to be "healed/be buried" this could allow the Others to destroy the Wall. We've always worried about a horn blowing when really we should be more concerned that the Starks have been driven away from WF. (Conversely, maybe the point of the Horn's were to summon the Starks to let them know if the Others/Wildlings were attacking, but who knows?)

This reasoning is why I don't think the HM is Benjen. Everything points to an Others attack and the Wall falling - Benjen hidden in WF means that there IS a Stark in WF.

Crackpot but I think he is alive (barely) and can't travel back to the Wall. I like the idea that the Others have a hard time transforming the Starks into Wights, hence why Benjen is still alive but incapacitated.

[Little and Less]

The MUST has always bothered me too. And that it isn't always the Starks uttering it either.

[Gekke Henkie]

Maybe the absence of the Starks at WF signals not just any winter but the "Long Winter" - the Others will attack the Realm because Ned's beheading and Theon's treason (which drove Rickon and Bran away from WF) drove all the Starks away (and remember both Benjen and Jon were not at the Wall for a time). The Others will now start their full attack,

The last nail on the coffin, probably is if Jon is dead/in a coma. If Jon is confirmed "dead" this could allow the Others to destroy the Wall.

I feel so stupid, it all makes sense now. The others are a result of a Stark not being in WF, winter is just winter. This explains errything.

[Morienthar]

2. I don't know. The use of 'must' in the phrase, and the amount of times it's repeated, nudges me to believe there's something else/magical going on.

What could be more magical then an Other stopping point

There's a Stark in Winterfell and the Others can't pass it.

No Stark in winterfell,the others will go till Dorne easily and their next stopping point would be Starfall.

A bit(More than a bit) Crackpot I adimt.

Maybe the absence of the Starks at WF signals not just any winter but the "Long Winter" - the Others will attack the Realm because Ned's beheading and Theon's treason (which drove Rickon and Bran away from WF) drove all the Starks away (and remember both Benjen and Jon were not at the Wall for a time). The Others will now start their full attack.

The last nail on the coffin, probably is if Jon is dead/in a coma. If Jon is confirmed "dead" this could allow the Others to destroy the Wall.

Maybe.....But that would assume that the Others sensed the death of the Starks,as they started appearing a year/two before Ned and Robbs deaths and Rickon and Bran's exile.

[Gekke Henkie]

edit. nm

[Gekke Henkie]

What could be more magical then an Other stopping point

There's a Stark in Winterfell and the Others can't pass it.

No Stark in winterfell,the others will go till Dorne easily and their next stopping point would be Starfall.

A bit(More than a bit) Crackpot I adimt.

Maybe.....But that would assume that the Others sensed the death of the Starks,as they started appearing a year/two before Ned and Robbs deaths and Rickon and Bran's exile.

1. Well, yeah but isn't that the purpose of the Wall?

2. Another valid point as to why i should be wearing a tinfoil hat.

[Northbound]

I like the idea of "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell", having a deeper meaning. Is it just by chance that a massive winter storm, seemed to radiate outward from the Winterfell area, after the Starks were removed from it and the Boltons took the castle? I can not say. But it does seem very odd, especailly when the storm went northward toward the wall. It's been brought up, that we know about some pretty long winters, during the Starks reign and nothing magical happended. But I will pose the question. What if the Stark's being there, just makes it seem like a regular winter(even a long one), with no appearance of the Others? What if a hard winter, is just a prelude to the Long Night and without the Starks being in Winterfell, the Long Night is now coming?

[sixgunbuddyguy]

Maybe.....But that would assume that the Others sensed the death of the Starks,as they started appearing a year/two before Ned and Robbs deaths and Rickon and Bran's exile.

yeah, the others were already appearing, NW rangers had been going missing before the start of AGOT. but they may have sensed a disturbance in the force that something big was coming, so they started poking their icy fingers around the wall. i just dont know if they have that power/sense

[Gekke Henkie]

I like the idea of "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell", having a deeper meaning. Is it just by chance that a massive winter storm, seemed to radiate outward from the Winterfell area, after the Starks were removed from it and the Boltons took the castle? I can not say. But it does seem very odd, especailly when the storm went northward toward the wall. It's been brought up, that we know about some pretty long winters, during the Starks reign and nothing magical happended. But I will pose the question. What if the Stark's being there, just makes it seem like a regular winter(even a long one), with no appearance of the Others? What if a hard winter, is just a prelude to the Long Night and without the Starks being in Winterfell, the Long Night is now coming?

I agree, but as Morienthar mentioned, the Others were spotted before the Starks went away. Maybe the Others only attack the wall if there's no Stark in WF? Regardless, this is still my favorite theory on the subject, albeit pretty far-fetched.

[Little and Less]

I think the Others have always been beyond the Wall....they have been around since the Last Hero days. And they are used in many sayings like "Let the Others take you" etc... I think GRRM has even said that the Others are even intelligent whatever they may be.

As to why now? Why really make their presence known now? Hmm....maybe because the Starks no longer man/control the Wall and Winterfell. For the first time in 6000 years there are no Starks present to stop them.

Plus in a crazy way, Mance Rayder helped their cause by handing them a huge mass army of would be Wights at the same time the Starks were decimated. Maybe its GRRMs version of the big bang theory - having so many random events aligning themselves at the same time has made the time right for the Others that they finally have the strength and possibly the numbers.

And with the Realm in chaos, magic returning to Westeros, Southerners believing only snarks and gumpkins exist North (no threats), letting the NW fall to a skeleton army, letting the Wildlings amass an army in the Others playground, betrayal of the Starks in the North - well if you were an Other, wouldn't this be a perfect time to attack? No one sees you coming

But how do they know that the Starks are not at WF and the Wall? Hmm...have to think on that one.

[Gekke Henkie]

It just isn't fair Dany has been using up all the deus ex machina credit.

[Little and Less]

Come to think of it, the Three Eyed Crow and the Direwolves (and dragons) came at about the same time too. Maybe BR foresaw the Starks downfall and the Others activities.