Peytr Baelish knowledge of the Red Wedding

[Winterz]

At that point the Riverlands were still in open rebellion. Cat is a valuable hostage for the same reason Edmure is. Of course, the Riverlands were subdued fairly easily, but the more bargaining power you have the better. He might think that it'll help with the Vale, too.

Somehow I don't think Tywin would care for her at all. With Edmure and plenty of Riverlords as hostage why exactly does he need Catelyn? He has the Starks and Tullys heirs, Catelyn's nothing. Also I'm sure Tywin isn't of the sort of keeping hostages with little use. Additionally, I'm sure Tywin wasn't idiot enough to think that having Catelyn would make any difference to her sister down in the Vale.

[SnowyStoneRivers]

Somehow I don't think Tywin would care for her at all. With Edmure and plenty of Riverlords as hostage why exactly does he need Catelyn? He has the Starks and Tullys heirs, Catelyn's nothing. Also I'm sure Tywin isn't of the sort of keeping hostages with little use. Additionally, I'm sure Tywin wasn't idiot enough to think that having Catelyn would make any difference to her sister down in the Vale.

I agree with this. Having heirs in hand, why would Tywin think that Catelyn would be a significant hostage. It seems out of character for him to be sentimental, to make the understatement of the day. :)

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Yeah I was curious at his lack of reaction to the whole thing. Wasn't Cat his great, true love? And even after she died, he still wanted her... "Only Cat."

Maybe just an oversight on Martin's part.

[Fightbringer]

cant really see any reason why he'd be told, although now come to think of it, it may have been possible he worked it out seeing as the lannisters porbably told him to ready fake arya, its possible he could put 2 and 2 together. He wouldnt like the idea of catelyn dying i dont think, but its hard to imagine he would be massively devastated (though i believe, cat, sansa and himself are the only people he really cares for in the world, and sansa mainly because of the fact he can live his fantasy through her) also cat wasnt supposed to die, and by this point he'd moved on to making plans for sansa. He probably welcomed the RW, it worked well for his plans, both for power and sansa. Though i doubt he knew much about it, if anything, seeing as there were only tywin, roose and the freys who knew the explicit details

[Sasha Steelsong]

Somehow I don't think Tywin would care for her at all. With Edmure and plenty of Riverlords as hostage why exactly does he need Catelyn? He has the Starks and Tullys heirs, Catelyn's nothing. Also I'm sure Tywin isn't of the sort of keeping hostages with little use. Additionally, I'm sure Tywin wasn't idiot enough to think that having Catelyn would make any difference to her sister down in the Vale.

Except that he states in SOS (CH 52 on my kindle - Tyron chapter right after Arya's RW knockout chapter) that she wasn't supposed to die. So clearly he did want her for something.

As to whether Littlefinger knew beforehand I doubt it, since I don't think anyone but those directly involved knew the specifics. I think he probably knew generally that something was going to go down (given his preparation of Jayne) but not the full plan or intended outcome.

I have no idea whether he'll do anything to avenge Cat. I think if his plans afford him the opportunity without having to deviate too much he might do something, if for no other reason to win some favor with Sansa and the Riverlords, but I don't see him going out of his way to exact revenge for the RW. I don't think Cat was replaced by Sansa, though Sansa is a more than adequate substitutue for him.

[Winterz]

Except that he states in SOS (CH 52 on my kindle - Tyron chapter right after Arya's RW knockout chapter) that she wasn't supposed to die. So clearly he did want her for something.

I understand that it is written so. But I just can't understand why. What could've been his purposes.

[Groat]

I understand that it is written so. But I just can't understand why. What could've been his purposes.

There is a tool for everything and everything has a tool. A Tully from Riverrun who married the lord of Winterfell could certainly prove useful.

[Winterz]

There is a tool for everything and everything has a tool. A Tully from Riverrun who married the lord of Winterfell could certainly prove useful.

Except Tywin's smarter than that. Using a vengeful mother that has hardly anything else to lose, you really think Catelyn would play it cool? Also you mean a *Widow of Winterfell with no claims to Riverrun nor WF.

[SnowyStoneRivers]

Yeah I was curious at his lack of reaction to the whole thing. Wasn't Cat his great, true love? And even after she died, he still wanted her... "Only Cat."

Maybe just an oversight on Martin's part.

That's what I'm wondering. Like I said, it's been a while since I read them, so the story kind of runs together a bit. When does he lament her and to whom after her death?

[SnowyStoneRivers]

Except that he states in SOS (CH 52 on my kindle - Tyron chapter right after Arya's RW knockout chapter) that she wasn't supposed to die. So clearly he did want her for something.

As to whether Littlefinger knew beforehand I doubt it, since I don't think anyone but those directly involved knew the specifics. I think he probably knew generally that something was going to go down (given his preparation of Jayne) but not the full plan or intended outcome.

As you say, given his preparation of Jeyne, I wonder if he was supposed to recieve Cat as some kind of reward for his handling of Jeyne. But, why would Tywin really care about rewarding Baelish like that?

[SkaggCannibal]

About why they would wanna have Catelyn is a hostage. It's not for sure Tywin knew, but at least Ramsay knew Rickon and Bran were still alive, so possibly Roose (and Tywin) knew too. Having their mother could come in handy should they ever succeed in staging a rebellion. It would be like having Dany's mother when she comes to Westeros. Other than that, I can't really see a reason except extra bargain for the Blackfish to give up Riverrun, doubt it would have worked though.

Or maybe Tywin wanted to please his new daughter-in-law and re-unite her with her mother. But that's just too crazy :cool4:

[SerFelixCulpa]

Except Tywin's smarter than that. Using a vengeful mother that has hardly anything else to lose, you really think Catelyn would play it cool? Also you mean a *Widow of Winterfell with no claims to Riverrun nor WF.

Robb Stark had to die as the Lord of Winterfell, an obvious and serious threat to the Lannisters. Cat on the other hand was not going to birth any more heirs to the North, but was a highborn woman with some value to people he wanted to have leverage over. Leaving Cat alive also gave them at least some sort of argument to the effect of, "Robb Stark violated his guest right (somehow) and we were within our rights to kill him, but look, we spared his mother and aren't we sweet for not killing a defenseless woman even though she and her son gave us great insult?"

In short, certain advantages would have accrued by taking Cat hostage as opposed to killing her, whereas Robb had to die as a direct threat to them. Tywin was indeed very smart, and while he did not hesitate to kill or betray when it was for the good of House Lannister, he also was not a sadist or someone who killed just for the hell of it.

EDIT: Let me also point out that Tywin would have been quite willing, if it turned out Cat was not willing to play ball or get with the program as a hostage, to arrange for Cat to have an accident or else "commit suicide" as a grief-stricken mother. Problem of non-cooperation solved with little or no downside to Tywin.

[Aelinor Keath]

There is a tool for everything and everything has a tool. A Tully from Riverrun who married the lord of Winterfell could certainly prove useful.

Who is next in line for Riverrun if something happens to Edmure before he has a kid. She also can be remarried in a useful alliance, just like Cersei.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Another aspect Tywin may have had in the back of his mind: it is stated somewhere that Tywin did not want the opprobrium for the Red Wedding on him or House Lannister. It is not really common knowledge (even if it may be known to many in power) that the Lannisters had anything to do with the Red Wedding. The Lannisters have plausible deniability on having had anything to do with it.

Now, with Cat in his "protection" Tywin can argue that in fact he did what he could to mitigate the RW after he found out about it, and he may have been counting on Cat's hatred of the Freys (and his custody at that point of Cat's only known remaining child, Sansa) outweighing her hatred of the Lannisters. He might under those circumstances be able to get Cat to say that it was the Freys alone who perpetrated it. And again, if Cat were not willing to play along, why, she can have a convenient accident. No downside to keeping Cat alive and under wraps.

[Starfell]

Yeah I was curious at his lack of reaction to the whole thing. Wasn't Cat his great, true love? And even after she died, he still wanted her... "Only Cat."

Maybe just an oversight on Martin's part.

We don't actually see him on page until some time after the RW, do we? I doubt he's going to broadcast his feelings at any rate, the only person he really relaxes his guard around is Sansa, and even that's not until quite far into ADwD. I certainly don't buy that he was totally unmoved by it given that it's still "only Cat" two books later

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I didn't know what they planned to do to my precious Catelyns first born son. Of course, he earned it when he placed his male member inside Jeyne Westerling. Still, I'll have vengeance for my precious Cat.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Yeah I was curious at his lack of reaction to the whole thing. Wasn't Cat his great, true love? And even after she died, he still wanted her... "Only Cat."

Maybe just an oversight on Martin's part.

Littlefinger is a sociopath. He doesn't love Cat nearly as much as he loves what she represents.

[UnFit Finlay]

Somehow I don't think Tywin would care for her at all. With Edmure and plenty of Riverlords as hostage why exactly does he need Catelyn? He has the Starks and Tullys heirs, Catelyn's nothing. Also I'm sure Tywin isn't of the sort of keeping hostages with little use. Additionally, I'm sure Tywin wasn't idiot enough to think that having Catelyn would make any difference to her sister down in the Vale.

Think about Tywin's long term plan though.

He gave the North to the Boltons but he was planning to betray them and give Winterfell to Tyrion and Sansa's child, in which case Catelyn would've had great value. The Bolton's claim is based on a fake Arya and who better to expose that than the real Arya's mother? The widow of Ned Stark and daughter of Hoster Tully, who is well known to hate the Lannisters and Tyrion in particular? If she says that Tyrion is the rightful Lord of Winterfell then who is going to accuse her of lying?

Littlefinger is a sociopath. He doesn't love Cat nearly as much as he loves what she represents.

I agree with this. I think a lot of people drastically over-estimate his feelings for Cat and now Sansa. Everything he's done in the series so far has been carefully calculated in order to gain more power. I don't think he genuinely cares about anyone.

I also think he knew about the Red Wedding. The Lannisters believe him to be completely loyal to them and I think Tywin would've trusted him with exactly what was going on and what he needed. Otherwise he'd be taking a big risk that Littlefinger wouldn't pick a girl that was totally unsuitable ESPECIALLY given who she was going to be married too.

[The Bastard of Summer]

I dont think he knew anything for one he is too much of a busy body, he would have tipped cat off somehow. Anything to save his Cat.

[Master Forel's Fro]

Didnt he tell her she can trade her daughters for jaime when them having him was keeping them alive. Plus he was practically giggling when he was made lord paramount of the riverlands a position previously held by the man who told him he wasn't good enough for his daughter.