Secret Targaryens

[Corvo Attano]

I don't subscribe to the J/C theory but Tyrion is more interesting.

Whose to say that Tywin didnt attempt to abort the pregnancy once he found out? This might account for the death of Joanna in childbirth also Tyrion's Achondroplasia is an autosomal dominant genetic disorder which means one parent had to have the dominant gene to pass it along which may also be a clue.

Isn't it interesting that Dany, Jon and Tyrion's mother all died in childbirth? And everyone agrees 2 of those are Targs (and yes I am aware that mothers dying in childbirth is common for a medieval setting and I am not saying this is specfic to Targ thing)

To me there's definite hints left in there, but whether its a red herring or not is another story.

I'm not sure of that medical lingo, is it dwarfism or mismatched eyes? If its dwarfism, there's plenty of other dwarfs around, and if it refers to the eyes, Euron has the same condition.

Jon's mother didn't die giving birth to him, she was already dying from a fever, and she survived for a couple of hours at least after Jon was born.

Even if Tywin did find out and try to abort it, why did he take no action whatsoever against Aerys?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Out of that no mention of Aurane Waters and Darkstar yet ? Patchface ? Meera ?

Half the family is missing.

Oh man you forgot quaithe, doreah and serra.

[A Crow Come Over]

I'm not sure of that medical lingo, is it dwarfism or mismatched eyes? If its dwarfism, there's plenty of other dwarfs around, and if it refers to the eyes, Euron has the same condition.

Its the dwarfism one of the parents had to have the dominant gene to pass to Tyrion, just saying it could be a hint in the future once we know more about family lines.

Euron has a solid black eye and one normal eye which is never explained, Tyrion has different colored pupils which another Targ bastard had (Shiara Seastar).

[Corvo Attano]

Its the dwarfism one of the parents had to have the dominant gene to pass to Tyrion, just saying it could be a hint in the future once we know more about family lines.

Euron has a solid black eye and one normal eye which is never explained, Tyrion has different colored pupils which another Targ bastard had (Shiara Seastar).

Its possible that Lann The Clever was a dwarf (given that he managed to win Casterly Rock from the Casterlys using only wits, in an age when muscle ruled most matters), which would affirm his Lannister-ness, but we've never heard of a single Targ dwarf ever.

[A Crow Come Over]

Its possible that Lann The Clever was a dwarf (given that he managed to win Casterly Rock from the Casterlys using only wits, in an age when muscle ruled most matters), which would affirm his Lannister-ness, but we've never heard of a single Targ dwarf ever.

What about Maelys the Monstrous, didn't he have a small head sticking out of his neck?

[Yukle]

Its the dwarfism one of the parents had to have the dominant gene to pass to Tyrion, just saying it could be a hint in the future once we know more about family lines.

Dwarfism is only partly genetic, as most things are.

Genetics only goes so far. For instance, two parents with dark skin can give birth to an albino child. The child will be genetically dark-skinned, but the genes haven't read correctly and no melanin is being produced.

Tyrion may be a dwarf because he inherited it genetically. Or he may have have developmental problems in the womb. This is quite likely if Joanna was sick.

[Corvo Attano]

What about Maelys the Monstrous, didn't he have a small head sticking out of his neck?

Wasn't he the one that Barristan earned great renown for killing in single combat in The War of The Ninepenny Kings? He can't have been physically stunted if he was able to give Barristan a challenge.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If Tyrion is actually a Targ, what would the point be? To justify the mistreat of his family towards him? Meh. He is Tywin's son, that's the "god's punishment" for being arrogant and the irony of it is that Tyrion is the son who is more like him, unlike the twins, and Tywin knew it. Cersei, the proud lioness, being a Targ would make more sense narratively speaking, specially if she ever finds out.

[Biffyc7]

I think that Varys, with the hint at Egg with the shaved head, his early days in Essos and the castration with the wizard (King's blood?) and his support for another potential secret Targ aren't that terrible of clues to go by

[A Crow Come Over]

Wasn't he the one that Barristan earned great renown for killing in single combat in The War of The Ninepenny Kings? He can't have been physically stunted if he was able to give Barristan a challenge.

I was referring to the tiny head aspect, it was implied he ate his kin in the womb.

[thetitansbastard]

There potentially could be a ton of dragon blood pumping around, but I don't see the big deal. What if Stannis's biological father is a Greyjoy? What does it matter?

[Corvo Attano]

I was referring to the tiny head aspect, it was implied he ate his kin in the womb.

Having a shrunken head would probably impede your fighting ability quite a lot..

[Wade of House Wilson]

I always figured Tyrion's off-colored hair was symbolic of his differences from the rest of his house. Then again, I suppose his dwarfism could do that.

I viewed Jamie and Cersei's incest in a similar fashion, showing how Lannister rule wouldn't be much different from Targaryen rule. Once again, I suppose their actions showed that just fine.

Aerys did lust after Joanna, but that doesn't mean he fathered her children. I think my favorite "The Lannisters are actually Targaryens" theory is that J+C were Aerys' kids, but Tyrion wasn't, and that was why Tywin hated him so much. I don't agree with the theory, but it was still interesting and made for a compelling story element.

[boondockquigs]

Technically Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei may only be secret Waters or Hill, as Joanna didn't married Aerys.

So I agree, Jon is probably the only hidden Targaryan.

:agree:

[boondockquigs]

I'm a big fan of A+J = C+J. Jaime and Cersei just make so much sense as Targaryens. Their incestious relationship, their beauty, Cersei's decent into paranoia and pyromania... I'm not saying that passes for anything close to evidence, and I agree that having secret Targs under every unturned stone is a little silly, but it's still a pet theory of mine.

not saying i believe this, but it actually makes more sense than the Tyrian is a targ theories

[The Red Hand]

Tyrion was born at least 8 years later.

Like Crow said it suggests that Aerys lusted after Joanna, or it could support A+J=J&C.

Since when? Euron has mismatched eyes. Is he a Targaryen?

True, but the chances of Tyrion being a Greyjoy are slim and the only other person we hear about with that condition is a Targ(though a bastard).

Moqorro said nothing of the sort. He says he is a shadow snarling amidst the dragons. Bran had a dream about dragons, too.

Moqorro pretty says he sees a lot of of dragons with Tyrion:

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

To me it seems like Moqorro is saying that Tyrion is one of the dragons. Combine that with the friendly way he talks to Tyrion afterwards and it seems plausible to me.

Dragons are the most powerful imagery around. Tyrion wants to be powerful.

True, but Tyrion's describes it himself as a "morbid fascination".

Tywin also disowned Jaime when Jaime didn't do what he wanted.

Yes, but he follows that up by giving him the new family sword. Tywin only says Tyrion is his son once when he needs him to go to KL, he only says Jaime isn't his son when he point-blank refuses to ever inherit CL. Theres a world of difference there to me.

Funny, Tywin is also called a small man with a great shadow, or as Genna says, "Tywin was big even when he was little."

No offense but I think you're reaching with that comparison.

A+J=T makes sense to me and that automatically makes A+J=J&C plausible(in my mind). I'm not saying it's true but it's definitely a valid theory.(though no where near as concrete as R+L=J)

@ the OP the theories have been around for a while and they really tick people off for some reason.

[The Red Hand]

J/C/T are not Targaryens. Do you really think that if Joanna was raped by Aerys, she wouldn't tell her husband? And if she did, do you really think Tywin would just sit idly by and not tale any action?

The Tyrion part of the theory is just a weak attempt to absolve him of kinslaying. And people seemed to have interpreted a single (metaphorical) remark by Genna to be conclusive evidence that Jaime must be a Targ.

If Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son, why the hell would GRRM have invested that much time in their relationship?

Why show Jon's feelings about Ned? You assume that Joanna was raped and that Tywin was told- you shouldn't concoct your own version of events and then say it doesn't make sense. And remember when Ilyn Payne got his tongue ripped out? All Tywin did was "sit idly by and not tale any action".

Out of that no mention of Aurane Waters and Darkstar yet ? Patchface ? Meera ?

Half the family is missing.

At the risk of sounding like a theory snob most secret Targ theories are stupid, A+J=T and A+J=J&C actually make sense. I'll add Varys as well (Why does he care so much whether a Targ sits the throne?)

Again with this? Dr Pepper had a patience to explain that logic behind Tyrion being Targaryen is fallable, and I`ll just say I agree. This theory makes me wonder of ho much certain readers let their imagination wonder while they`re reading.

Isn't that the point of a fantasy novel? And all he did was offer alternative explanations, hardly enough to negate the logic behind it.

Jon's mother didn't die giving birth to him, she was already dying from a fever, and she survived for a couple of hours at least after Jon was born.

Is death always instantaneous during childbirth? I always thought that mothers usually died of complications caused by childbirth, and that was why Lyanna died in her "bed of blood".

If Tyrion is actually a Targ, what would the point be? To justify the mistreat of his family towards him? Meh. He is Tywin's son, that's the "god's punishment" for being arrogant and the irony of it is that Tyrion is the son who is more like him, unlike the twins, and Tywin knew it. Cersei, the proud lioness, being a Targ would make more sense narratively speaking, specially if she ever finds out.

It makes Tywin more human(if he knew), adds complexity to Tyrion's relationship to his family, Enables him to possibly get a new family that treats him better, and from a plot perspective stops Dany from cutting off his head and finally gives him the means to get payback on the Vale(whether or not he rides a dragon).

And to those people saying A+J=T only exists to absolve Tyrion of kinslaying you're wrong. First, it's insulting to everyone who subscribes to the theory, Second Tyrion would still be a kinslayer since Tywin and Joanna were cousins.

[Corvo Attano]

Why show Jon's feelings about Ned? You assume that Joanna was raped and that Tywin was told- you shouldn't concoct your own version of events and then say it doesn't make sense. And remember when Ilyn Payne got his tongue ripped out? All Tywin did was "sit idly by and not tale any action".

1. Tywin & Joanna married for love, why would she keep something like that secret?

2. On a personal level, Tywin didn't like anyone other than Joanna, J & C (before they disappointed him) and maybe Kevan & Genna. I doubt he cared about Ilyn Payne, as long as he could still chop off heads.And anyway, its a ridiculous comparison - His wife getting raped is a much bigger deal than his executioner getting his tongue removed.

[The Red Hand]

1. Tywin & Joanna married for love, why would she keep something like that secret?

2. On a personal level, Tywin didn't like anyone other than Joanna, J & C (before they disappointed him) and maybe Kevan & Genna. I doubt he cared about Ilyn Payne, as long as he could still chop off heads.And anyway, its a ridiculous comparison - His wife getting raped is a much bigger deal than his executioner getting his tongue removed.

1.) Did they? I know that Tywin liked her but I never remember reading that she felt the same. And there are alot of reasons why she wouldn't- fear of Tywin rebelling and dooming them all, shame, etc. I hate to bring this up a lot of girls in real life don't tell anyone when it happens to them.

2.)He was still Tywin's personal guard and taking out his tongue(especially given the context) is an attack on Tywin's pride/reputation. He didn't like Tyrion but was still prepared to go to war over his capture just because of Lannister pride/reputation. Even Joffrey(and Cersei in a flashback I think) say that Tywin was afraid of Aerys. Also, Payne only started chopping off heads years later when Robert gave him the office as a favor to Tywin.

[mrunderhill]

Moqorro pretty says he sees a lot of of dragons with Tyrion:

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

To me it seems like Moqorro is saying that Tyrion is one of the dragons. Combine that with the friendly way he talks to Tyrion afterwards and it seems plausible to me.

True, but Tyrion's describes it himself as a "morbid fascination".

Yes, but he follows that up by giving him the new family sword. Tywin only says Tyrion is his son once when he needs him to go to KL, he only says Jaime isn't his son when he point-blank refuses to ever inherit CL. Theres a world of difference there to me.

No offense but I think you're reaching with that comparison.

A+J=T makes sense to me and that automatically makes A+J=J&C plausible(in my mind). I'm not saying it's true but it's definitely a valid theory.(though no where near as concrete as R+L=J)

@ the OP the theories have been around for a while and they really tick people off for some reason.

I won't deny their are strong links between Cersei and Tyrion and the Targaryens, but not Jaime.

The point about the shadow Tywin and Tyrion's shadow is not reaching. Tywin is noted for casting a huge shadow and so is Tyrion. I think ultimately the children are linked far too much, to Tywin not to be his.

There is a possiblity of Targaryen or Blackfyre ancestry to explain why the children seem to display Targaryen families, but I think it is just a case of the Lannisters becoming the new ruling family.