Littlefinger hired a Faceless Man to kill Ned

[Lord_Tyrell]

I believe LF hired the FM after Lysa poisoned Jon but before Cat arrived in KL.

Why? Their are numerous other ways he could kill Ned besides hiring a Faceless Man. You are pretty much thinking of the most expensive and least practical way to kill him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Besides LF has other ways to get rid of people. Tears of Lys for example. Much cheaper.

And hows LF going to do that? Pay Jory? Turn Cat? He didn't have s Lysa in Ned's camp.

[jeepers_flowers]

I don't see LF going to the expense of hiring a FM. He has plenty enough confidence in his own ability to manipulate the idiots in power.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Disagree with this. I'm 99% certain that Joff executed Eddard because Joff is Joff. The one thing Joffrey could never abide was being told he couldn't do something. At this particular stage, he was still feeling frustrated that he was king, but everyone was still telling him what to do.

He could kill Ned. So he did. Because it made him powerful.

Just like puppies. And Bran.

I think he was being pushed into that mentality by Littlefinger though. Littlefinger used reverse psychology on him, and got him to do his dirty work. I think he was ready to listen to his mother, but Littlefinger tells him that they have soft hearts of women to where their judgement can't be trusted, that it would be mercy to simply behead Ned instead of having him flayed, and that a king must be bold.

[Lost Melnibonean]

LF didn't actually plan on killing Eddard from the day Eddard set foot in KL. After Bob croaked it LF immediately sought out Eddard to discuss a coup d'etat (aka removing Cercei). He didn't like what Eddard had planned (namely, put Stan B on the throne) and he switched sides to Cercei as it was more profitable to him. Later he probably indirectly manipulated Joff to execute Eddard instead of following Varys' plan.

He knew Ned would never do as he proposed. He was just toying with Ned.

[Dryhtscipe]

And hows LF going to do that? Pay Jory? Turn Cat? He didn't have s Lysa in Ned's camp.

Exactly how he did do it. Push Ned into investigating the bastards, then sit back and wait for him to inanely confront Cersei.

[Lord_Tyrell]

And hows LF going to do that? Pay Jory? Turn Cat? He didn't have s Lysa in Ned's camp.

He's got other means than just someone close to Ned. Littlefinger has friends all over the city, and he surely would have found one to be able to close to Ned. Why not when he bribed Janos Slynt have him or another member of the City Watch kill Ned? There are many, many other methods he could have killed Ned besides having someone close to him poison him.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Exactly how he did do it. Push Ned into investigating the bastards, then sit back and wait for him to inanely confront Cersei.

Bingo. Littlefinger merely had to wait and make sure Ned did his thing. That's why he came clean with Robert's bastard baby when Ned was thinking about leaving over hiring an assassin to murder Dany instead of doing it earlier. He needed Ned to keep investigating and think that he came up with the idea himself instead of Littlefinger wanting him to find out.

[Lost Melnibonean]

LF did not just complain about the cost of hiring a FM.

He specifically complained about the cost of hiring one to kill a merchant. Namely, that it was ludicrously expensive to hire one to kill a mere merchant, so he could only imagine how much it would cost to kill Dany.

I just reread that scene. :D

I believe there are several obvious hints that LF was loaded and there are enough subtle hints of LF's graft to feul several threads on the topic in this forum.

[Scipio Africanus]

He knew Ned would never do as he proposed. He was just toying with Ned.

Then he would gone to Cercei directly and never bothered with Eddard. Moreover the exact same plan he proposed to Eddard he proposed to the Tyrells who did accept and carried it out.

LF was basically selling his services (aka the Gold Cloaks) to the one who profited him most. He did want Joff (temporarely) because the kid could be easily manipulated and ruled through, but I'm not so sure he always had his heart set on Cercei.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This is entirely true. Rereading aGoT right now, and the thing that shines through every single interaction between Ned and Littlefinger is that LF holds Ned in complete contempt. He weaves lies into every single thing he says, and manipulates Ned into doing exactly what Ned has to do in order to die.

Absolutely: When Ned first met LF he told Ned that he was growing old and slow ebe as LF appeared more nimble, at least at sneaking around the castle and at court intrigue.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I believe there are several obvious hints that LF was loaded and there are enough subtle hints of LF's graft to feul several threads on the topic in this forum.

I don't think you understand how much a Faceless Man costs. Killing the Hand of the King and Warden of the North would have almost bankrupted Littlefinger. He could have hired anyone else or gone through any other means for a thousandth of the price.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why? Their are numerous other ways he could kill Ned besides hiring a Faceless Man. You are pretty much thinking of the most expensive and least practical way to kill him.

Most expensive and least practical but also the surest as LF pointed out when he told Ned he had saved Dany by talking the council out of hiring a FM. LF learned a sharp lesson fighting Ned's brother. A lesson reinforced when Ned put a dagger to his throat on the way to meet Cat in a brothel. If LF had tried to pull a dagger in the dark, Ned could have kicked his ass. LF had to play by different rules. And while LF takes risks he plays to win by any means necessary.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I don't see LF going to the expense of hiring a FM. He has plenty enough confidence in his own ability to manipulate the idiots in power.

You could very well be right. But I came at this from the other end--why was a FM in chains bound for the Wall before Ned's execution and then off someplace else after Ned's execution.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think he was being pushed into that mentality by Littlefinger though. Littlefinger used reverse psychology on him, and got him to do his dirty work. I think he was ready to listen to his mother, but Littlefinger tells him that they have soft hearts of women to where their judgement can't be trusted, that it would be mercy to simply behead Ned instead of having him flayed, and that a king must be bold.

That's speculation--sound speculation, but is it supported?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Exactly how he did do it. Push Ned into investigating the bastards, then sit back and wait for him to inanely confront Cersei.

And that was defintely going to happen? What if Ned had gone to Robert first? What if Tywin hadn't drawn Ned's strength and potential allies into the Riverlands? What if he had made common cause with Renly?

[Dryhtscipe]

You could very well be right. But I came at this from the other end--why was a FM in chains bound for the Wall before Ned's execution and then off someplace else after Ned's execution.

A man must be near for a name to be spoken.

Orrrr, to be less cryptic, feelers had been put out about hiring a FM to off Daenerys, but this fell through.

[Tenshi]

(1) Yes he wanted Ned disgraced for treason but he also wanted him dead, not because he was a threat--he hated him. Ned's boyhood friend and ally was king when I believe LF hired the FM.

(2) If the betrayal was sufficient to satisfy the vision and if you believe LF was the third shadow why did GRRM describe the face(less) death and black blood?

On 1: Odds were that Ned would deny treason in the first place. And lose his head. If the honorable Ned Stark somehow did speak the lie, the final verdict was still with a psychopathic boy king who liked to see traitor heads on spikes to start with - not too hard to sing that song to Joffrey. If that failed, he'd still be in a cell until he could be sent to the wall; accidents happen. And if he somehow got on his way, who knows, the watch would have to go through a warzone... again, accidents happen. Seriously, if at those odds LF still preferred hiring an FM, he'd hire an FM for everything.

The only counter one can give is that LF hired that FM long before, for a plan that never was needed and thus is just speculation. And even then, why park him, of all places, in a cell? Not quite the best place. Now Varys has an obvious motivation, as he owns the black cells in his Rugen disguise.

I think this argument is completely discredited as such.

On 2: Robert Strong is the obvious explanation, though I'm not convinced - I do see the Braavos connection as plausible. Though prophecy bites one in the arse: this is the least clear part either way. Gregor or Braavos, or both? As he's described as looming over both (Jaime and the Hound), is he a threat to the Starks or to those two? Mind you, Jaime and the Hound became protectors to the girls in particular. To Ned, the Hound, as I recall, did nothing, while Jaime may have attacked him, but ironically saved his life by doing so, as we now know.

Connecting blood/darkness to Braavos, if we take that interpretation, and assume it's about the Starks, can mean the FM - at least for Arya that's easy. Some have also argued this for Sansa: that Arya may be sent after "Alayne" by Cersei or so. Now, one might also argue for Ned that he was planned to be linked to the FM somehow (before he got killed instead and Arya was chosen).

Problem is, LF is now out of the equation. The whole reason to argue him at all is Braavos; if you have a FM, you already have Braavos explained, and don't need LF.

Then again, as said, is it necessarily an aggressive connection? To Arya the FM aren't enemies. To Sansa, in the theory, it'd instead reunite her with her sister. So to Ned, is it one of murder, or a planned rescue? As said, the Hound and Jaime turned out saviours.

The bolded part is the key here though. If we posit that the giant made of stone is Braavos, then it may signifiy Littlefinger, or a faceless man (the latter arguably fitting slightly better, though LF deals with death quite a bit anyway). I see no justification whatsoever to say it must be both.

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[Lord_Tyrell]

You could very well be right. But I came at this from the other end--why was a FM in chains bound for the Wall before Ned's execution and then off someplace else after Ned's execution.

It's a good question, but I can assure you Littlefinger was not involved. Varys is a much more likely candidate.

Actually, I've got a theory, perhaps Varys sent him up to kill Jon Snow. Jon would be relatively cheap since no one knows his true ancestry. I think Varys may have figured it out, and if the theories about Varys and Aegon both being Blackfyres, then Jon could now be a problem, especially being reunited with his father who has covered up the secret to his birth the whole time.

Then again, I think that Jaqen would have continued up to the Wall regardless instead of Oldtown.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I don't know why my actions are debated. To think that I'd pay for something I just complained about the price of is ridiculous. Hiring a Faceless Man to kill Ned Stark wouldn't have been cheap for me. I was already paying the City Watch. So I had them capture Ned for me, after I lured him into a false sense of security about detaining Cersei and her bastards.

Ned gets captured and I whisper into Joffreys vulnerable little ears about how weak he would look to let a traitor live. Traitors must have an example made out of them, I told him. I didn't even mention Ned by name. And the rest is history.